Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 249

Thu, 10 Dec 2009

• 1. Re: Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Believing Companies - Kashrus (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Bishul Akum (martin brody)
• 4. Re: LBD lists (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: Believing Companies - Kashrus (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: questions regarding pidyon haben (Joshua Meisner)
• 7. Billions and Millions (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 8. Re: Believing Companies - Kashrus (Liron Kopinsky)
• 9. Re: Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway? (Zev Sero)
• 10. Kosher meat in a non K Butcher Shop (Meir Rabi)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] Believing Companies - Kashrus (harchinam)
• 12. Re: Kosher meat in a non K Butcher Shop (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Newspapers and REW (Micha Berger)
• 14. Seeking Source for Quote from R Eliezer (Danny Schoemann)
• 15. Artificial Meat (Arie Folger)

On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 11:06:19AM -0000, Chana Luntz wrote:
: What I was trying to say was that I would have thought *any* type of burn
: should fall within the gemora test (ie even the most limited kind that could
: be classified as a burn).  The test in the gemora (well the Bavli anyway
: Shabbas 40b) is kol shecreiso shel tinok nichveis"....

Which is an odd test, since I'd be much less likely to actually try that
on a baby or toddler than to actually see if an adult's hand would recoil.
So, an adult has a reflex at the same temperature that a baby's skin
would actually cook.
Even with Rashi's explanation of added precision, since it's assur to
burn someone, but it is mutar to make your own hand recoil, how could
that more accurate measurement ever be obtained? You would end up using
an approximation of the better measure (eg by using a fetal pig's skin?),
and thus losing the precision anyway.

: I also wrote:
: > > The one in common use is to point out that the knife used for shchita
: > > is deemed cold (ie does not need to be treated as though it was cooked
: > > by the blood of the animal it schechted), even though it is in contact with
: > >the body temperature of an animal (43 degrees or so, although others have
: 
: And RMB replied:
: > But for how long? Does the actually knife heat up? (I would think that
: > if it does, pressure and friction might have more to do with it.)
: 
: The key thing is that you need to look at the gemora in Chullin 8b. The
: discussion there is regarding the knife of an akum and whether if such a
: knife was used for shchita what remedies you need to take in order to use at
: least the majority of the meat (just wash it or remove a layer of the meat).
: And the gemora there initially postulates that the machlokus between Rav and
: Raba bar bar Chana is that one holds "beis haschita tzonen" and the other
: holds "beis haschita roseach" - ie that the place at which the slaughter is
: done on the animal is considered halachically "cold" or "boiling"...

Thanks, but given that it isn't actually tzonein or rotzeiach, can we
use the chalos sheim to determine the physical temp implied? I supposed
so, since that's what is done. But that's the very point I found
surprising.

...
: What is not discussed is a time factor.  My knowledge of shchita is
: extremely rudimentary, but I believe that it is possible to perform a kosher
: shchita which involves moving the knife back and forth a number of times, ie
: that the time period can be extended and still result in a kosher shchita.

As long as it's continuous, shechitah can take arbitrarily long.
Shehiyah is only is the chalaf (or should I say saqin when writing
someone who became Sepharadiah?) loses contact before the simanim are /
siman is cut through.

Of course, I forgot 8b, so who knows how well I retained hilkhos
shechitah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

At 04:00 PM 12/9/2009, R. Micha wrote:

>I think what you're asking boils down to:
>Can you be sure that if a company has two options, claims to be using
>the cheaper one, they wouldn't have any of the more expensive one
>around?
>
>Corn is cheap in the US in particular. The whole reason why the recipes
>differ in the two countries.
>
>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha

Some time ago I had a long back and forth via email with

>Rabbi Moishe Dovid Lebovits
>Author of Halachically Speaking
>Rabbinical Administrator - KOF-K Kosher Supervision
>Recorder of KOF- K policy

It was about the kashrus of mouthwash, particularly Scope and 
Listerine. In one of the issues of Halachically Speaking he had 
written essentially one should use only use mouthwash that has 
supervision, because of the glycerin in the "regular" 
mouthwashes.  This he based on the psak of Rav Belsky.

I wrote to him that Listerine has no glycerin in it. I also told him 
that I had contacted Scope, and they told me that the glycerin they 
use is of animal origin. Eventually he wrote back the following.

"After giving some thought to our conversation today  I want to add 
the following:
Although the non-Jew said they use vegetable ingredients there is no 
one making sure this is always done and non-vegetable glycerin is 
cheaper than vegetable. therefore, if they are not a kosher company 
there is no reason why they should use vegetable glycerin. Why are we 
believing a non-Jew to tell us about kosher. The one answering the 
phone has limited knowledge regarding the items in a product. Even if 
it is made on the same equipment as animal glycerin we do not rely on 
bitul. My opinion still stands  that I have no way to guarantee that 
only vegetable glycerin is ALWAYS used."

This response not only relates to the use of sugar or corn syrup in 
coke, but also has wide implications for the discussion about 
following lists in other countries that has taking place on Avodah. 
If one cannot rely on what a non-Jew (I assume this applies to a 
non-religious Jew also) tells you, then how can one follow lists?

I have posted this to both Avodah and Areivim, because it is related 
to discussions on both lists.



Yitzchok Levine 
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One of the key issues that hasn't been mentioned in the recent discussions
on kashrut is steaming.
As the Rema said bishul is only by fire following the Rambam etc. on
smoking. Most if not all factory canned goods we have discussed here are
steamed, and therefore we don't need Rav Moshe's comment on not knowing the
factory owner.

-- 
Martin Brody
310 474 1856
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> others, like myself, upon hearing the formidable issues, such as
> constant use in a commercial environment removing ben yomo, failure of
> CIP to remove beins, the heter of bishul akum ha companies not being
> used by the vast majority of poskim...

My general hashkafah is to try lechatchila to aim as high as one can,
But bedi'avad to settle for a lot less.

Kullos serve a purpose to avoid great loss. [Yeish al mi lismoch] They're
needed to address human error, etc. To rely upon them at the outset is
imho an abuse of the system.

------------------------



I was working last night on YD 95:3-4
WRT dishwashers. I was trying to show how the language of the mechabeir
might indicate whether it's L'chatchilah vs. B'di'avad.

I told him the same words can mean differently things in different
contexts

EG: "you better drive it carefully"

This can be either:
    - l'chatchila advice EG when somone borrows the car
    - Or its bedi'avad advice EG if they have already stolen the car!  :-)





Micha:
> "Numerous issues involved", but are resolved as mutar lekhat-chilah
> (eg bitul by a nachri).

[By which I mean lekhat-chilah relative to eating, not relative to
giving it to the nachri. -micha]

Here is a quick "cur hamivchan" re: deriving benefit [hana'ah] from
ma'aseh nochri

The Nochri is John
First Jew: Reuven
2nd Jew: Shimon

1 Shabbos
    A On Shabbos John puts on light in dining room for himself
      Reuven comes over

      Q: may Reuven use that light?

    B John KNOWS Reuven is coming over and specificlly for Reuven's
      benefit - John, on shabbos, puts on the dining room light.

      Q: may Reuven use that light?

2 Kashrus

    A John throws drops in a miniscule amount of issur in some cofee in
      his house w/o anticipating anyone else.
      Reuven later comes over

      Q: may Reuven drink that coffee?

    B John intentionally throws drops in a miniscule amount of issur
      in some cofee in his kitchen in anticipation of serving it later
      to Reuven
      Reuven later comes over

      Q1: May Reuven drink that coffee?
      Q2: May Shimon walk in and drink that coffee?

    C John has a coffee shop with a hashgachah. Reuven serves as the rav
      hamachshir. As a matter of course, John intentionally adds drops
      of issur in amounts that will be bateil in order to conform with
      bittul and hilchos kashrus.
      Reuven later comes over to inspect the cafe.

      Q1: May Reuven drink that coffee?
      Q2: May Shimon later on purchase that coffee?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 04:35:28PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
: At 04:00 PM 12/9/2009, R. Micha wrote:
...
: >I think what you're asking boils down to:
: >Can you be sure that if a company has two options, claims to be using
: >the cheaper one, they wouldn't have any of the more expensive one
: >around?

: >Rabbi Moishe Dovid Lebovits
...
: "After giving some thought to our conversation today  I want to add 
: the following:
: Although the non-Jew said they use vegetable ingredients there is no 
: one making sure this is always done and non-vegetable glycerin is 
: cheaper than vegetable..."

: If one cannot rely on what a non-Jew (I assume this applies to a 
: non-religious Jew also) tells you, then how can one follow lists?

That's not a question to ask me, that's a question you would have had
to have asked R' Yechekel Abramsky, Dayan Grossnass, Dayan Dr Isidor
Grunfeld, etc... who formalized LBD's and other such lists.

It would seem that gedolei Torah who know the laws of neemanus don't all
agree with RMDL.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>wrote:

> <<But the way you explain it, as being a real minhag, confuses me. If I
> would attend a bris during the Nine Days, and bring some meat home for
> someone who was unable to attend, surely they would not be allowed to eat
> it. Is there a real value in bringing food home, beyond the social aspect?>>
>
> It is said (I forget the source) that participating in a seudas pidyon
> haben is equivalent to fasting 84 fasts. Hence spreading the opportunity to
> participate.
>
> It seems that no one knows what the source of this idea is, although Shem
MiShim'on (by R' Shimon Pollack, available on Hebrew Books) Yo"D 29 suggests
a rationale for it based on the Zohar.


Joshua Meisner
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I am trying to render Nishmas into modern colloquial English. I'd like to
strike a balance between the literal meaning and idiomatic meaning, and I'm
coming to the chevra for help. 

One particular phrase that I'm having trouble with, refers to how we cannot
adequately describe even one of the many favors He has done for us. In the
Nusach Ashkenaz version, "many" is described as "alef elef alfay alafim
v'reebay r'vavos".

As best as I can parse this, it contains three phrases:
- alef
- elef alfay alafim
- v'reebay r'vavos

The vav clearly separates the last two words from the rest, and I suspect
that the kamatz in "alef" serves to separate the first word from the
others. If so, "alef" means a thousand, and "elef alfay alafim" means a
billion (a thousand thousand thousands).

"Reebay r'vavos" is the part that I'm having most trouble with. Literally,
a "revava" is 10,000. If "reebay" is a form of this word, despite having
only one beis, then the phrase means 100,000,000. But I doubt that this is
what was meant. An effective piece of rhetoric would scale the numbers all
in the same direction.

For example, one might say, "We are unable to thank Him for even one of the
thousands and millions and billions of favors He has done for us." Or, one
might say, "We are unable to thank Him for the billions, or the millions,
or the thousands, or even for just one of the favors He has done for us."
But if the text goes from 1000 to 1,000,000,000 to 100,000,000, then I am
missing the point. I don't know what the Siddur is trying to say.

It's quite possible that I am being too pedantic about this. I may end up
following DeSola Pool's translation (in the first RCA Siddur), "countless
and infinite". But the original text still seems odd, repeating a form of
the word "thousand" four times, and repeating the word "10,000" only twice.
(I refuse to use the word "myriad", which I see as too archaic.) Why was it
written this way?

I have no illusion that these numbers were intended to be exact. This is
poetry. This is rhetoric. The most idiomatic translation might well be
"thousands and millions and billions". But before I decide, I'd like to
have a better sense of what the original is trying to convey. Have I even
parsed the phrase correctly?

Siddur Otzar Hatefilos mentions some sources (medrashim perhaps?) which
might be the sources for these phrases, but looking them up is beyond my
current abilities. But in any case, those sources would be mostly of
academic interest -- I don't think it would explain why the third number is
smaller than the second; the sequence should have been different. If the
answer is that a revavah is a more impressive number than an elef, well,
that impressiveness gets ruined by dropping from four repetitions to two.

(By the way, the Edot Hamizrach text of this section is much simpler. "Elef
alfay alafim, v'rov reebay r'vavot" could easily translate literally as
"billions and trillions". What are the Ashkenazim saying?)

Akiva Miller

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"Although the non-Jew said they use vegetable ingredients there is no one
making sure this is always done and non-vegetable glycerin is cheaper than
vegetable. therefore, if they are not a kosher company there is no reason
why they should use vegetable glycerin. Why are we believing a non-Jew to
tell us about kosher."

Does this mean that if vegetable glycerin was cheaper than non-veg that we
would be able to rely on the non-Jew, assuming they would do whatever is
cheapest?
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Chana Luntz wrote:

> What is not discussed is a time factor.  My knowledge of shchita is
> extremely rudimentary, but I believe that it is possible to perform a kosher
> shchita which involves moving the knife back and forth a number of times, ie
> that the time period can be extended and still result in a kosher shchita.

Yes.  "Afilu kol hayom" (Chulin 32a)

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

I would appreciate your thoughts re the sale of Kosher meat in sealed marked
packaging to be sold in non-K butcher shops.
Is there a concern for MAyin?
Is the opportunity for new customers to purchase K meat or purchase it more
easily a valid argument to introduce this 'new' alternative?
If we already accept pre-packged K meat in the supermarket, why should a
butcher shop be different?
How different must a K product be from a similar or identical non-K product?
For example, if a company has been persuaded to manufacture a Kosher run of
a food which is otherwise not K, and the K version is identifiable only by a
letter of digit alongside the 'use by date', how concerned must we be that K
shoppers will inadvertently purchase the non-K look-alike?

Meir Rabi
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> Does this mean that if vegetable glycerin was cheaper than non-veg that we
> would be able to rely on the non-Jew, assuming they would do whatever is
> cheapest?

No, we wouldn't. How can you be sure that the company didn't get a
great deal for who knows what reason on the more expensive product? Or
that there was some fashla in deliveries and the more expensive
ingredient had to be substituted so as not to keep production lines
idle?

The only way that we can hope to be sure that ingredient X is used
instead of Y is that we have mashgichim checking the delivery lists,
supplier lists, kitchen, etc. to verify that no changes were made in
the regular way of making the product for any reason. And even then,
mistakes can get by.

By the way, in response to other posts, the fact that corn is cheaper
in the States than in England is not impressive reasoning. Corn is
surely cheaper in the States than it is in Israel, yet corn syrup is
used in the Coca Cola here. It would seem to me to be logical that
Coca Cola, as a well-known brand with a well-known flavor, would want
its product to taste the same all over the world. Why shouldn't they
demand that "current coke" have the same flavor everywhere instead of
the flavor of "old coke"?

*** Rena

I would appreciate your thoughts re the sale of Kosher meat in sealed marked packaging to be sold in non-K butcher shops.
Is there a concern for MAyin?
Is the opportunity for new customers to purchase K meat or purchase it more easily a valid argument to introduce this 'new' alternative?
If we already accept pre-packged K meat in the supermarket, why should a butcher shop be different?
How different must a K product be from a similar or identical non-K
product? For example, if a company has been persuaded to manufacture a
Kosher run of a food which is otherwise not K, and the K version is
identifiable only by a letter of digit alongside the 'use by date', how
concerned must we be that K shoppers will inadvertently purchase the non-K
look-alike?

Meir Rabi
======================
In West Orange, the o rabbis have asked the community not to patronize those shops at all.
KT
Joel Rich
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I just found the following from Revach L'Neshama in my RSS reader.
http://revach.net/article.php?id=4220 (quoted in full, it's short)

    Reb Elchonon Wasserman Reads the Newspaper on His Shtender

    After the passing of his Rebbe the Chofetz Chaim, Reb Elchonon
    inherited the mantle of being Daas Torah for his generation. He would
    defend Torah against attack from the outside and mercilessly fought
    those seeking to destroy it from within.

    To this effort Reb Elchonon felt the need to keep up with the goings
    on in the world and would read the newspaper daily. It was placed
    on his shtender and each morning he would spend three minutes going
    through it and digesting it with his incisive mind.

    When asked why he would read the newspaper on his shtender out of
    all places, he said, if I must read the paper then it is because it
    is a mitzva and I can read in right here on my shtender. if there
    is an issue with reading the paper then I cannot even do it behind
    closed doors.

Am I reading too much into this maaseh to conclude that leshitas REW,
either an act is a mitzvah or there is an issue with it -- there is no
true realm of divrei reshus?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 6:06 PM, <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In Chofetz Chaim Daily companion P. 259 R. Eliezer Hagadol is quoted
> advising his son:
> "Do not sit with groups that talk about the faults of others..."
>
> Where can this be found?
> Is this an aggadita in Bavli? Or Pirkei R Eliezer?

Tzavo'as R Eliezer HaGodol, "stanza" 17. It's the longer/fuller version of
R' Eliezer being visited by his students on his death bed as related
in Brachos 28b and in slighly more detail in Sanhedrin 101a.

17. My son, do not sit among groups which speak bad (Genai) about their
friends and [with] Ba'aley Lashon Hara, for all the words go up and are
written in a book, and all those present are recorded in a Chaburas LH.

It's on Page 322 in my copy of Pirkey D'R Eliezer.

- Danny
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Once again, the press is talking about the possibility of producing
synthetic meat identical with the real thing with the decade. We are
not talking about soy substitutes, but about actual meat grown from
muscle cell cultures, in the lab.
Some background info:
Petri dish [LATimes] certified
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/22/health/he-meatlab22

I have written a blog post about some halakhic issues, and even imply
a haskafic matter, entitled "But is it Still Pork." I will gladly take
comments:
http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/but-is-it-still-pork/

Two salient paragraphs:

The Talmud, Shabbat 30b, reports how Rabban Gamliel taught how in
Messianic times, our daily material needs will be met without effort,
and some of the pain and drudgery that is a hallmark of life, will
disappear ... Rabban Gamliel clearly envisages the material
transformation of the world in the Messianic era not to be any major
departure from the nature of nature today. What if that day is slowly
but surely arriving?

And:

But is it kosher?
There are several issues of concern here, which, owing to the nature
of blogs, I will only treat briefly.
   1. The source of the culture
   2. How the culture was harvested
   3. How the culture is fed
   4. Is it halakhically meat?
   5. A final note of genetic diversity

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* But is it Still Pork?
* Glaubensweitergabe ? Ein Videovortrag
* How Trustworthy is the Fish Monger or Fish Restaurant?


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