Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 244

Fri, 04 Dec 2009

• 1. Re: Kosher (Isaac Balbin)
• 2. Saturday Evening begin Prayer for Rain (Ari Meir Brodsky)
• 3. Re: Kosher (Isaac Balbin)
• 4. Re: kosher lists (Arie Folger)
• 5. Re: shidduch statistics (Saul Mashbaum)
• 6. Canned vegetables (martin brody)
• 7. Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway? (Chana Luntz)
• 8. Re: Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway? (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: Kosher (Isaac Balbin)
• 10. Factory Bishul Akum Rav Moshe (martin brody)
• 11. Dishwashers (martin brody)
• 12. Re: questions regarding pidyon haben (T6...@aol.com)
• 13. Project Proposal - ReWrite Hovos Hal'vavos (Saul Mashbaum)
• 14. Re: Canned vegetables (Arie Folger)
• 15. LBD and canned veggies (martin brody)

On 04/12/2009, at 1:44 AM, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> <<Bishul Akum from factories is not an issue according to many
> opinions.>>
> 
> This is a daas yachid; I have never heard of anyone being somech on it
> halacha lema'aseh. 

It is true that this is the opinion brought by the Birkei Yosef quoting
Geonim from the 1600's and that it is not accepted ALONE lehalocho,
however, in food production it is very much relied upon as a second tzad
lehokel, and we have a tradition in Bishul Akum that when there are two
tzdodim lehakel, that it is muttar. A second tzad lehokel is often
"steaming in the can" which according to Rav Ovaydya is muttar as he
considers it like the "smoking of food" which is muttar according to the
Yerushalmi. Others don't agree with Rav Ovadya. In combination, however, we
are meikel. As I understand it, this is also the policy of the OU and is
standard practice.

Dear Friends,

        This is a friendly reminder to Jews outside of Israel that our daily
prayers should include the request for rain, beginning with Maariv this
Saturday evening, December 5, 2009, corresponding to Motzei Shabbat, 19
Kislev, 5770. The phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" -
"Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of
the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach. I encourage everyone to
remind friends and family members of this event, especially those who may
not be in shul at that time.

        We begin requesting rain in the Diaspora on the 60th day of the fall
season, as approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a).
As this year the starting date falls on Shabbat, we begin the insertion on
Saturday evening. For more information about this calculation, follow the
link below, to a fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to
the Jewish calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for
rain when we do: http://www.lookstein.org/articles/veten_tal.htm (Thanks to
Russell Levy for providing the link.)

        Also, if you're curious about how often there are two Shabbatot
during Chanukka, as there are will be this year (but not again for the next
17 years), you can find that as well as other Chanukka statistics at:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/aribrodsky/Chanukka.htm

        And in case you ever find yourself stranded somewhere at Birkat
HaChodesh without a calendar listing the time of the Molad, you may want to
learn my Mental Molad Method, at:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/aribrodsky/MentalMoladMethod.htm

Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka,
-Ari Brodsky.

-----------------------
Ari M. Brodsky
ari.brod...@utoronto.ca

> R' Micha wrote:
> 
> When dealing with bitul, there is only bitul bedi'eved. This includes
> anything made by a non-Jew, since he has no "lechatkhilah", and thus we
> only get the taaroves after it exists.
> 
> So far, I used the terms lechatkhilah and bedieved relative to the time
> of mixing. Let's talk lechtakhilah and bedi'eved relative to eating it.
> 
> As this point, bitul already occured. I am under the impression that
> I can now eat the result lechatkhilah, that it is no less kosher than
> had that 1% of whatever not fallen in.
> 
> Was I mistaken?
> 
> Because according to my understanding, once the non-Jewish company did
> the mixture, the tarfus (using the term generically) is batul, not
> there, and may be eaten with no qualms. (At least no halachic ones.

If there is certification, there is the issue that the Goy is doing it (partially) for a Yid.
This is bitul lechatchila according to many. There are therefore cases of
items which have been investigated as per the ingredients and items which
are formally certified. The latter presents less wiggle room for bitul.

Of course, if it's a dovor hamamid, or adds colour, or nosen taam this complicates Bitul B'dieved even for a Goy.

I wrote:
> DIFFERENT SUBTOPIC:
> Regarding London Beth Din's kosher list, I happen to personally know
> some of teh people involved, and they do indeed check quite a lot of
> facts about the products they certify.

There is a "thinko" in the above statement of mine. Quite obviously,
the LBD puts in considerable work in what it *certifies*. In fact, no
one questioned that. I wanted to point out that there is a lot of fact
checking that goes into *listing* products on the kosher list.

And whoever pointed out that a hekhsher on everything is an American
innovation is right. However, I disagree with his implied claim that
it isn't necessary in Israel. Mitzvot hateluyot baaretz mean that in
Israel, a lot more products need to be certified.

And I should point out that when I wrote that whether or not one may
consume certain products without a hekhsher, for instance, canned
vegetables, is actually dependent on the local market, I ought to add
that this is even true for products under the same brand, even from
the same factory. This information is based on conversations with,
among others, London Beth Din and the OK. Some factories will process
the products for one market on one line, and those for another market
on another line. Although one line is kosher, the other one may not
be. Identical product, the one on sale in, say, the UK, France and
Turkey is kosher, while the same product on sale in Belgium,
Switzerland and Denmark is not kosher.

So, no, not everything needs a hekhsher, but yes, one needs a certain
amount of expertise to figure out what can be relied upon and what
not. Consult your local kashrut experts.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* UK Commander Challenges Goldstone Report
* On the Stereotypical Jew
* Wieso ?ruhte? G?tt?
* Wir sind f?r die Evolution!

RMB

>>
Seriously, though, every time I
hear of someone making a se'udas hoda'ah for this yesh'uah or that, I
thank HQBH for saving me from even needing a yeshu'ah. Every time my
child crosses the street and there were no hidden cars, I got a bigger
berakhah than that of the neighbor who thanks G-d their son healed.
>>
Logic and emotions lead us in different directions in this matter. By logic,
the
position RMB describes here is of course valid. Emotionally, salvation from
an
actual danger engenders in us a feeling of gratitude which is impossible
to attain by contemplating a case in which "nothing bad happened".

This is the basis of the Talmudic principle that the mitzva of haggada on
leil haseder
requires "matchil b'gnut u'mesayyem b'shvach". The "gnut" shows that the
exodus was from
an intolerable situation, a genuine geula. Lacking this, our emotional
response
to the exodus experience would not be nearly as intense.

The emotions engendered by Pesach and Shavuot, corresponding to yetziat
mitzraim and Matan Torah,
are very different. The latter, although the central historical religious
experience of all time, lacks
the emotional intensity of the former, because of the element of salvation
in the Pesach experience.
Shavuot engenders intellectual gratitude, Pesach emotional.

Saul Mashbaum
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Arie Folger said
"The issue of whether or not canned vegetables may be consumed without
a hekhsher is actually a matter that depends on the locality. In some
locales, large monoculture plants dominate (they only do beans, for
example), while in others efficient pluriculture plants may dominate.
In addition, the prevalence of problems is subject to disagreements
among experts. Thus, LBD's statement may be true in the UK while being
untrue in some other countries."

This is a common retort (excuse the pun), but respectfully it makes no
sense.
A can of peas cooked in Poland, or beans in Brazil, or carrots in China are
kosher according to the LBD. The same cans are sold in Los Angeles. Does it
alter the kashrut?
Of course not. Yes there are different opininons on steaming in retorts
etc., but the LBD is surely valid as well?
Bon appetit,
Martin Brody
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RRW writes:
>     Question 3:
>     Liquids
>     A liquid that has been heated to the temperature of "Yad Soledes
> Bo,"
>     i.e., a temperature at which one would withdraw one's hand from
> such a
>     liquid due to the intensity of heat, is considered cooked.
> 
>     Most Poskim agree that Yad Soledes Bo is between 40 and 45 degrees
>     Celsius, or approximately 110 degrees Fahrenheit.[11]
> 
>     That is the basic rule of thumb for Yad Soledes Bo.
> 
> [Footnote 11 reads:
>     Shabbos KeHalachah, p. 24.
> 
> To which I would add: In contrast, Shemiras Shabbos Kehilkhasah 1:1
> gives only the top of that range -- 45deg C, 113deg F. Gives it as a
> "lo
> pachos mei-".
> RMF in IM OC 4:74-75 gives a range. 110deg F lechumerah, but WRT an
> item being cooked before Shabbos, so that colder is qulah, RMF requires
> 160deg F.
> -mi]

See the Yalkut Yosef Hichot Shabbat (vol 4 chelek 3) Siman 318 letter 28 and
particularly footnote 28 there where he brings (particularly relying on the
Ben Ish Chai) a figure of 80 degrees Celcius as Yad Soledet Bo, although he
does agree that between a temperature of 40 degrees and 80 degrees you need
to be concerned that perhaps it is yad soledet bo (ie for going l'chumra).
But meikar hadin he holds an 80 degree minimum (ie that up until that
temperature liquid is vadai being cooked for shabbas purposes).

IIRC the Ben Ish Chai holds the 80 degrees (I have heard others set his
figure at 70 degrees which is closer to Rav Moshe's l'chumra position) which
is determined by the temperature at which a person will eat and drink food
without finding it unpalatable, as being both l'chumra and l'kula.  I would
never have let any of my babies tummies anywhere near 70-80% - so I confess
the Ashkenazi shiurim seem much more intuitively correct (think about the
temperature on those baby thermometers you can buy to stick in the bath
water to ensure it is not too hot, much more in tune with the Ashkenazi
position). 

But you should be aware that while the chumra positions might overlap, the
ikar hadin positions appear to be widely divergent.

Regards

Chana

My chavrusa is a chemist and I entreated him to share some of his
experimental data....

Years ago he played with cooking at the lower extremes of YSB and he was
able to actually complete some cooking, albeit it did take a long time.

Bottom line first
> most of the information i gave you, i've learned from here:
> http://amath.colorado.edu/~baldwind/sous-vide.html

Now for some details of his hands on experiments.

Beef:
> Depends on what you are cooking: I was cooking beef at 131F/55C, but
> you can go down to 51C safely if the meat is fresh.


Poultry and eggs:
> Chicken meat is still meat - however the problem is bacteria. It is
> unsafe to cook chicken even when fresh at temperatures lower than 140F.

> Eggs are different substance all together - a perfectly cooked egg
> has a temperature of 144F. The yolk will become cooked however at lower
> temperatures.

> If we call changes in the tertiary protein structure "cooking" then one
> can say that cooking occurs at as low as 105F/40C: given enough time
> in bacteria-free environment one should be able to cook beef filet to
> edible condition.

> However I've spent about 6 hrs on the beach in Eilat in 1994 when the
> temperature of the air was 42C.

As far as bishul achar bishul goes I would agree that @ 40C it would
require a long time cooking for it to be mevushal ...

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

R' RRW
>    The Laws Of Cooking On Shabbos
>    Based on the Sefer Shabbos KeHalachah
>    by Rabbi Y. Farkash
...
>    Most Poskim agree that Yad Soledes Bo is between 40 and 45 degrees
>    Celsius, or approximately 110 degrees Fahrenheit.[11]
...
> To which I would add: In contrast, Shemiras Shabbos Kehilkhasah 1:1
> gives only the top of that range -- 45deg C, 113deg F. Gives it as a "lo
> pachos mei-".
> RMF in IM OC 4:74-75 gives a range. 110deg F lechumerah, but WRT an
> item being cooked before Shabbos, so that colder is qulah, RMF requires
> 160deg F.
> -mi]

Rav Soloveitchik personally experimented and felt that it was 140
(60C). He felt the range was between 140 and 160 F.

Others (Shmiras Shabbos) quote the Yerushalmi saying it should be based
on the blood temperature of beis hashchita for which we know the knife
is not boleah, based on Gemora in 1st Perek Chulin. Shmiras Shabbos says
the warmest is 113, so he is machmir from 114 onwards.

OU are machmir (it's lehokel of course in bishul akum/treyf) for 120 F
(which you can barely feel)

Actually, I got it from the OU website. I'm not asking you to accept it, (or
anything else I have offered regarding Kashrut and I thank those that have
confirmed my statements,) but to recognize that he said it. I'm suprised it
is not more well known.
Martin Brody

Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l.
ruled36<http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/playing_with_fire_b
y_rabbi_yaakov_luban_senior_rabbinic_coordinator_ou_kash/#fn406077014b18515
85ca82>that
there is no prohibition of bishul akum in a factory that uses
specialized equipment, for the following reason: In truth, if the non-Jewish
cook is unknown to the consumer, bishul akum should not apply, since eating
the food item would not lead to socialization. Nonetheless, bishul akum is
in effect even in such cases of anonymity because the Rabbis established
uniform decrees (lo plug) without allowing for the variations of every
individual situation. However, if the food is processed in equipment which
is completely different than normal household cooking
utensils37<http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/playing_with_fire_
by_rabbi_yaakov_luban_senior_rabbinic_coordinator_ou_kash/#fn5914113724b185
1585d253>,
bishul akum does not apply. Since the processing equipment is totally
unique, the concept of uniformity (lo plug) is not operative.Because this
position has not received universal acceptance, the OU generally does not
rely on this leniency alone without other supporting considerations (though
at least one major kosher organization does follow this ruling completely).

36 Verbal discussions with Rav Nathan Greenblatt, shlita, and Rabbi Yisrael
Belsky, shlita. See article of Rabbi Menachem Genack, shlita, Mesorah,Vol.1.



> What products bother you regarding factory bishul akum? You've never
> heard of anyone? Rav Moshe says it's OK.

Where does he say this?

[The other RMB pointed us to IM 1:55 twice now. Once on Areivim,
and repeated here. -micha]

--
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                    - Margaret Thatcher
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"If Bedi'eved would equal lechathcila then using dishwashers with meat
and milk at the same time would be OK according to many. BUT AFAIK, it's
not OK to do - except that bedieved we may not have to trash the dishes.KT
RRW"


Why is it not OK to do L'Chatchila as long as one uses soap?
SA YD  95:4. R.YO ( and others) agrees.

Martin Brody
310 474 1856
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> AFAIK the garlic and sugar are not put on the tray, but
>  distributed to the guests at the seudah, for them to take
> home and  eventually incorporate into a meal of their own,
> so that everyone who  eats of that meal will also have a
> part in the seudas mitzvah.   Essentially this is the same
> minhag as that of taking home cake from a  bris, for those
> who weren't able to make it.   [--RZS]

 

_kennethgmiller@juno.com_ (mailto:kennethgmil...@juno.com)   wrote:
>> I have heard of, and seen, people who bring home food from a  bris or 
from a kiddush. But I thought that it was simply a way of helping that  person 
snack, helping them to *feel* like they had attended.

But the way  you explain it, as being a real minhag, confuses me. If I 
would attend a bris  during the Nine Days, and bring some meat home for someone 
who was unable to  attend, surely they would not be allowed to eat it. Is 
there a real value in  bringing food home, beyond the social aspect?  <<

Akiva  Miller
 
 
>>>>>
You should not bring home meat during the Nine  Days.  You should bring 
home cake, especially seven-layer cake and  strawberry shortcake.  In serious 
answer to your question, yes, there is  real value in bringing home food from 
a se'udas mitzvah and that is a  long-standing Jewish minhag.  As I was 
raised, the food you brought home  was preferably mezonos, not sure why -- I 
guess you can be kovea seudah on  mezonos but not on the celery sticks and 
radishes from the crudite'  platter.  You didn't bring home a /lot/ of food, 
wouldn't want to make a  pig of yourself, but you brought home /something/ -- 
like maybe a cookie, a  piece of cake or a roll.  Some aspect of bracha 
attaches to the food from a  bris or pidyon haben, something good that you 
wouldn't want your wife to be  deprived of just because she couldn't make it to 
the simcha.  And also,  that cookie or whatnot that you brought home just for 
the blessing of it -- if  no other blessing, it would surely enhance the 
blessing of sholom bayis in  your home!  Oh and also, it counts as zero points 
on Weight Watchers....you  didn't know that?

 

 


--Toby  Katz
==========

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RRW
>>>
In studying Hovos Hal'vavos I noticed that the "fine wine" is stored in
a medeival cask" so to speak.

IOW, the concepts are valuable today, but the idioms and parables
seem dated.

I would love to see a gifted author re-work this classic into a more
contemporary idiom. Any suggestions?
>>

At least the language has been reworked.

There is an edition of Hovot Hal'vavot , "Lev Tov", by R. Pinchas Yehuda
Lieberman, in which on each page, the original translation is accompanied by
a rewrite in *much* clearer and comprehensible Hebrew, which remains
faithful to the original.
This work was published in 1968-71, apparently by the author; I don't see
any information about a publisher, just  a note "all rights reserved to the
author".
I don't know about the availability of this work, but it's definitely worth
looking for; it makes learning Hovot Hal'vavot immeasurably easier.  I
recommend this work highly.

Saul Mashbaum
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First of all, yes, London Beth Din is an important, trustworthy
institution. Never did I imply otherwise in my posts. Now about the
cans. Cans produced in Switzerland are problematic, because there are
few canneries, and there is thus a chashash everywhere. Not so in much
kasher neighboring France.

By the way, LBD's statement, which you take to permit all canned
vegetables, is not as widely applicable as you think. I challenge you
to find cans canned in Switzerland on sale in the UK. The market is
more local than that. (The opposite, UK cans in Switzerland, is
possible, though not very likely, but you will see, for example,
Kellogg's cereal coming from one of the large European factories, so I
don't mean to imply that food doesn't cross borders in final
packaging.)


Good Shabbos,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* UK Commander Challenges Goldstone Report
* On the Stereotypical Jew
* Wieso ?ruhte? G?tt?
* Wir sind f?r die Evolution!

That's the point. The LBD will permit canned veggies/ fish/ tomatoes/etc
from Switzerland or anywhere else despite your  and others protestations.

Martin Brody


"On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Arie Folger <arie.fol...@gmail.com> wrote:

First of all, yes, London Beth Din is an important, trustworthy
institution. Never did I imply otherwise in my posts. Now about the
cans. Camp produced in Switzerland are problematic, because there are
few canneries, and there is thus a chashash everywhere. Not so in much
kasher neighboring France."
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