Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 242

Thu, 03 Dec 2009

• 1. Kosher (Prof. Levine)
• 2. How is one Qoneh Emunah (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 3. Re: Kosher (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Kosher (martin brody)
• 5. Re: How is one Qoneh Emunah (Yosef Skolnick)
• 6. Re: Project Proposal - ReWrite Hovos Hal'vavos (T6...@aol.com)
• 7. Re: questions regarding pidyon haben (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 8. Re: hoist by his editor's petard (David Riceman)
• 9. Re: Kosher (martin brody)
• 10. Re: Kosher (Samuel Svarc)
• 11. Re: Kosher (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: Kosher (Gershon Dubin)
• 13. Re: Kosher (martin brody)
• 14. Re: Kosher (Zev Sero)
• 15. Polygraph in Halakhah (Micha Berger)

At 04:21 PM 12/2/2009, Martin Brody wrote:

>So what? Can you taste it? Does it really happen? Is it really a kashrut
>issue? And it doesn't bother the London Beth Din either, for example.

It seems to me that the London Beth Din not simply rely on 
ingredients. In their Kosher Guide Summer 2009 (available at 
http://www.theus.org.uk/jewish_living/keeping_kosher/publications/ )they write

Products without certification, approved for the
Nosh Guide

Products listed in the Kashrut Guide which are neither supervised
nor bearing the logo have been investigated by our food
technologists and approved on this basis. The investigations cover
ingredients, any processing aids and shared use of equipment. They
are carried out primarily by correspondence, with occasional
factory visits where necessary.

To me it seems that they are doing much more than simply looking at 
the ingredients on a package.

Yitzchok Levine 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20091202/ecd0b0ba/attachment-0001.htm>

One of Micha's signatures is as follows:
    "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
    excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
    'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
    trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

Let's grant that this is indeed the case.

How is one qoneh emunah?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:45pm EST, R Prof. Yitzchok Levine wrote:
: At 04:21 PM 12/2/2009, Martin Brody wrote:
: >So what? Can you taste it? Does it really happen? Is it really a kashrut
: >issue? And it doesn't bother the London Beth Din either, for example.

: It seems to me that the London Beth Din not simply rely on 
: ingredients...

Avodah discussions aren't lemaaseh. Lemaaseh, you need to ask poseqim,
etc... And when you are deciding lemaaseh, the authority of who you're
relying on matters.

What would be more interesting for me (speaking as a poster, not the mod)
would be a discussion of why the kosher certifiers at al don't hold like
the IM. Not cynical reasons, like it would mean far less business, but
Avodah stuff -- actual discusions of stam keilim einam ben yoman in the
days of production lines, bitual lechatkhilah al yedei nachriim, etc...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org         - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Indeed they are, in some cases. Nobody claimed differently. But this is a
non sequitur. The poster was specifically refering to cans of vegetables
steamed in China with treif fish.
LBD categorically state that all canned, tinned, bottled vegetables and
beans etc.including tomato products are kosher if packed/cooked in brine,
water, or vegetable oil. Same goes for fish too, by the way.
Check mate.

Martin Brody

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

> At 04:21 PM 12/2/2009, Martin Brody wrote:
>
> So what? Can you taste it? Does it really happen? Is it really a kashrut
> issue? And it doesn't bother the London Beth Din either, for example.
>
>
> It seems to me that the London Beth Din not simply rely on ingredients. In
> their Kosher Guide Summer 2009 (available at
> http://www.theus.org.uk/jewish_living/keeping_kosher/publications/ )they
> write
>
> Products without certification, approved for the
> Nosh Guide
>
> Products listed in the Kashrut Guide which are neither supervised
> nor bearing the logo have been investigated by our food
> technologists and approved on this basis. The investigations cover
> ingredients, any processing aids and shared use of equipment. They
> are carried out primarily by correspondence, with occasional
> factory visits where necessary.
>
> To me it seems that they are doing much more than simply looking at the
> ingredients on a package.
>
> Yitzchok Levine
>



-- 
Martin Brody
310 474 1856
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20091202/e1db7e59/attachment-0001.htm>

Lots of repetition!
Yosef Skolnick
516-690-SKOL


On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM, <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> One of Micha's signatures is as follows:
>    "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
>    excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
>    'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
>    trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya
>
> Let's grant that this is indeed the case.
>
> How is one qoneh emunah?
>
> KT
> RRW
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20091202/d9cf7a43/attachment-0001.htm>

 

 
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com

>> In studying Hovos  Hal'vavos I noticed that the "fine wine" is stored in
a Lmedeival cask" so to  speak.

IOW, the concepts are valuable today, but the idioms and  parables
seem dated.

I would love to see a gifted author re-work this  classic into a more
contemporary idiom. Any suggestions?  <<

>>>>>
I have a suggestion.  "Bamakom she'ein ish...."



--Toby  Katz
==========

--------------------
 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20091203/bb2647d6/attachment-0001.htm>

Zev Sero wrote:
> AFAIK the garlic and sugar are not put on the tray, but
> distributed to the guests at the seudah, for them to take
> home and eventually incorporate into a meal of their own,
> so that everyone who eats of that meal will also have a
> part in the seudas mitzvah.  Essentially this is the same
> minhag as that of taking home cake from a bris, for those
> who weren't able to make it.  The reason for garlic and
> sugar is that they are not perishable, and a little bit
> can flavour a large pot.

I have heard of, and seen, people who bring home food from a bris or from a
kiddush. But I thought that it was simply a way of helping that person
snack, helping them to *feel* like they had attended.

But the way you explain it, as being a real minhag, confuses me. If I would
attend a bris during the Nine Days, and bring some meat home for someone
who was unable to attend, surely they would not be allowed to eat it. Is
there a real value in bringing food home, beyond the social aspect?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Weight Loss Program
Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/c?cp=nqNBhTTXfVyjHcIbIRCayQAAJ
z3zeK-F0bLcqGb51B0rOTOKAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEUgAAAAA=

I wrote (some time ago):
> I've started leafing through the Rogatchover haggadah.  There's 
> something there relevant to a subject we discussed several years ago.
>
> What value is a psak lacking explanation? Rabbi Rosen (p. 22 column 2) 
> rules that it lacks precedential value: "horaah kol zman shelo 
> nisbarer lanu ta'amo ein tzarich lachush l'dvarav klal.  Ki haoser 
> v'hamtamei tzarich l'havi ra'ayah".
>
> Ironically the editor doesn't cite Rabbi Rosen's explanation.  The 
> source is "Likutei basar Likutei, ed. R. Y. Mandelkern, letter 8, pp. 
> 49-50".  Does anyone have access to this book? If so, can you post the 
> reasoning?
I still haven't found Rabbi Rosen's explanation, but see BB 107b "Amar 
Rav Ashi: Ta'ama d'aherim lo yad'inan, hilchasa avdinan k'vasayyhu?" 
[Rashbam: "b't'miah"].

David Riceman

Really Jewish Food Guide . It's not published on-line. you have to buy it.
Kosher Nosh Guide is free, as you discovered.
You can order it here.
http://www.theus.org.uk/jewish_living/keeping_kosher/publications/

I have it on my desk as I write.
They have a whole slew of products that are kosher by definition as long as
they do not contain non-kosher ingredients. I'm happy to quote page numbers
and exact wording, but you should take my word on it. I remember a few years
ago my local Rav( whom you all know) taking my book and cornering Dayan
Ehrentrau when he was in town. Suffice to say he is now a beliver.
You should take a look at Iggeros Moshe YD 1, 55
Don't like chess?
OK, how about bingo?

Martin Brody



On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

>  At 05:57 PM 12/2/2009, martin brody wrote:
>
> Indeed they are, in some cases. Nobody claimed differently. But this is a
> non sequitur. The poster was specifically refering to cans of vegetables
> steamed in China with treif fish.
> LBD categorically state that all canned, tinned, bottled vegetables and
> beans etc.including tomato products are kosher if packed/cooked in brine,
> water, or vegetable oil. Same goes for fish too, by the way.
>
>
> Please give the exact quote and source on the Internet.
>
> Check mate.
>
>
> Martin Brody
>
>
> I must admit that I did not realize that we were playing chess, for which I
> have no patience.
>
> YL
>
>


-- 
Martin Brody
310 474 1856
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20091202/9f6c8fa3/attachment-0001.htm>

Pray tell, why is the LBD considered THE authority if something is
kosher, especially if they are the minute minority? You state things
like, "Checkmate" and "If it was kosher until now (paraphrasing)",
take a step back and look at it logically. Kashrus is different then a
lot of 'issurim' in that it has 'timtum halev'. To accept 'psakim'
that are held by only a few TC'im might be 'mutar al pi halacha', but
it is:
A - Excuse the expression, foolish to gamble your neshoma [timtum]
over a piece of food.
B - Betrays an attitude that can easily lead to 'novil b'rishus haTorah'.

KT,
MSS

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:57 PM, martin brody <martinlbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Indeed they are, in some cases. Nobody claimed differently. But this is a
> non sequitur. The poster was specifically refering to cans of vegetables
> steamed in China with treif fish.
> LBD categorically state that all canned, tinned, bottled vegetables and
> beans etc.including tomato products are kosher if?packed/cooked in brine,
> water, or vegetable oil. Same goes for fish too, by the way.
> Check mate.
>
> Martin Brody
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
>>
>> At 04:21 PM 12/2/2009, Martin Brody wrote:
>>
>> So what? Can you taste it? Does it really happen? Is it really a kashrut
>> issue? And it doesn't bother the London Beth Din either, for example.
>>
>> It seems to me that the London Beth Din not simply rely on ingredients. In
>> their Kosher Guide Summer 2009 (available at
>> http://www.theus.org.uk/jewish_living/keeping_kosher/publi
>> cations/ )they
>> write

Micha:
> What would be more interesting for me ... would be a discussion of why
> the kosher certifiers at al don't hold like the IM.... actual discusions
> of stam keilim einam ben yoman in the days of production lines, bitual
> lechatkhilah al yedei nachriim, etc...

Let me make a really pashutte hilluq very baalebattish..

When you buy uncertified products, there may be an entire slew of
"bittuls" that may be genuinely relied upon.

But when one certifies a product, lechatchilah's take over [EG ein
mevatlin afilu issur derabbanan lechatchila]

R Schwab used to say: "I'm a lechatchila Jew". IOW WRT kashrus he would
not allow any kind of bedi'avads at the outset.

AIUI some agencies shared this stance early on, and others came around
to it only later

Illustration:
My LOR permitted me to drink coffee from convience stores on the road.

But as a mashgiach, I would not certify them as kosher w/o kashering
the urns first etc.

So halachically kosher is not always the same threshold as "certified
kosher."

I hope this helps

RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

<<Equipment is aino ben yomo. Besides, when factories cross produce, they
sterilize equipment between usage>>

Definitely not true.    And there's the little matter of not being
allowed to use a keli eino ben yomo lechatchila.             

<<And see Rav Moshe YD 1, 55. He trusts the ingredient list.>>

Not the ingredient list;  a letter specifying the origin of one item. 
And while you're being somech on Rav Moshe, don't forget his teshuva
saying that relying on eino ben yomo lechatchila for a hashgacha is
"mechu'ar hadavar".

<<So what? Can you taste it? >>

As far as I know, Ashkenazim don't depend on taste, but on bitul.  Do you
know the proportions?

<<Bishul Akum from factories is not an issue according to many
opinions.>>

This is a daas yachid; I have never heard of anyone being somech on it
halacha lema'aseh.  

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
____________________________________________________________
Diet Help
Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=Ri5LP-_6DSQqwKuAOkMYzQAAJ
1DzeK-F0bLcqGb51B0rOTOKAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYQAAAAAA=

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20091202/80891b9a/attachment-0001.htm>

True, but it is bdi eved regarding the utensils.
Rav Moshe trust the company regarding the vegetable oil.
What products bother you regarding factory bishul akum? You've never heard
of anyone? Rav Moshe says it's OK.



On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>wrote:

>  <<Equipment is aino ben yomo. Besides, when factories cross produce, they
> sterilize equipment between usage>>
>
> Definitely not true.    And there's the little matter of not being allowed
> to use a keli eino ben yomo lechatchila.
>
> <<And see Rav Moshe YD 1, 55. He trusts the ingredient list.>>
>
> Not the ingredient list;  a letter specifying the origin of one item.  And
> while you're being somech on Rav Moshe, don't forget his teshuva saying that
> relying on eino ben yomo lechatchila for a hashgacha is "mechu'ar hadavar".
>
> <<So what? Can you taste it? >>
>
> As far as I know, Ashkenazim don't depend on taste, but on bitul.  Do you
> know the proportions?
>
> <<Bishul Akum from factories is not an issue according to many opinions.>>
>
> This is a daas yachid; I have never heard of anyone being somech on it
> halacha lema'aseh.
>
> Gershon
> gershon.du...@juno.com
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Diet Help
> Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2142/c?cp=6Ii1l0I9tj
> pJjX9UykPPhAAAJ1DPDqajeo1YJhsiNtQJen4GAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAA
> AAAAAAAAAAAYQAAAAAA=>
>



-- 
Martin Brody
310 474 1856
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20091202/61e9d7d8/attachment-0001.htm>

martin brody wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Lawrence Teitelman 

> FDA and EU laws require all ingredients to be listed in order of volume. 
> The only exception is if an ingredient is so small and is part of 
> another ingredient such as natural flavours(if one of the flavours was 
> significant it has to be listed).

This is not true.  There is no requirement that an incidental ingredient,
which doesn't need to be listed, be small.


> These natural flavours are batel b'shishim,

If it's nosen ta'am, how can it be batel?


> Equipment is aino ben yomo.

Says who?  In a commercial environment you can *not* rely on "stam
kelim"; on the contrary, the chazakah is that all equipment is used
every day.


> Besides, when factories cross produce, they 
> sterilize equipment between usage.

And this sterilisation is not usually up to kashering standards.


> And see Rav Moshe YD 1, 55. He trusts the ingredient list.

That teshuvah says no such thing.  It doesn't even mention ingredient
lists, let alone discuss whether they can be relied on.


>> "To take one example, some canneries (in China) have been known to
>> steam their fruits and vegetables together with treif fish. How
>> would you know by looking at the label? And what about companies who
>> use that in their production lines where you don't even see the cans."

> So what? Can you taste it? Does it really happen? Is it really a kashrut 
> issue?

Of course it's an issue.  How can it not be?  If vegetables and treife
fish were steamed together, who would permit it?


> Bishul Akum from factories is not an issue according to many opinions.

Which opinions?


> Agricultural produce from Israel could be a problem, but at the moment 
> such produce is a suffeik d'Rabbanam, or even suffeik suffeika when 
> purchased abroad.

Not if it's efshar levarer.


> And just to remind you there is a Gemara in Brachot discussing the 
> blessing on caperberries. I think it is around 38, sorry I don't have it 
> with me. There they decide a certain bracha was on a mixture that was 
> imported from India. No reference to the ingredients being suspect or 
> the keilim. Of course there are other examples of this.

It's 36B, a page after the discussion on tzlaf.  Rava says "the hamlata
that is brought from India is permitted, and its bracha is ha'adama".
Rashi translates "hamlata" as "letuario", which in English is "electuary".
On "permitted", Rashi says that it is neither bishul akum nor treif;
Machtzis Hashekel 203:4 explains that it's not bishul akum because it
can be eaten raw, and it's not treif because of nosen taam lifgam, and
in brackets it explains that he meant stam kelim einam benei yoman.

I don't know whether this bracketed note is from the Machtzis Hashekel
himself, or from the Bochur Hazetzer; it seems to me that NTLF is more
appropriate here, because any taste of meat or fish would not go well
with an electuary.   In any case, production was simpler before the
last few decades.  Factories only made one thing, with simple ingredients,
and when there wasn't any of that one thing to be made they lay idle.
And in Chazal's day they didn't even have factories; these Indian
electuary-makers surely either used a dedicated keli (because they didn't
want a meat taste to get in) or else a clean keli that they took from
their kitchen, which stam would not be ben yomo (because in a household
kitchen that assumption can be made).  NTLF can be applied in commercial
settings too, but stam kelim can not; in a commercial setting the
chazakah is that every piece of equipment is used every day.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                    - Margaret Thatcher

RDE and a semi-anonymous RML of avakesh.com (BCC-ed) each put
the following news story on their blogs.

http://
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1259243068980&;pagename=JPost%2F
JPArticle%2FPrinter
or http://bit.ly/6GttGUhttp://bit.ly/6GttGU

    Rabbis: Woman must pass polygraph test
    Dec. 3, 2009
    JPost.com Staff , THE JERUSALEM POST

    In an unprecedented move, the Haifa Rabbinical Court has ordered a
    woman to answer questions about her relations with men and alleged
    drug abuse while connected to a lie detector, Army Radio revealed
    on Thursday morning....

RML comments on Avakesh:
    Comment: One of the biggest problems we now face in Beis Din is
    unscrupulous witnesses or outright lying. SInce there is no fear
    pf perjury, and the trappings of the procedures do not necessarily
    inspire awe or concern, and there is no process of discovery,
    a claimant or a witness can outright lie without a fear of
    consequences. This is, therefore, a positive development in my
    opinion.

    This is not a new issue. In a recent article, Rav Shlomo Korach
    discussed halachic use of the polygraph machine (lie detector),
    especially in regard to the rules of evidence. He concluded that
    the polygraph could be relied upon under certain conditions,
    although not as a single piece of evidence upon which a court
    decision would be based. Subsequently, the Rabbinic Supreme Court
    of Appeals (RSCA) published a decision with completely different
    conclusions, rejecting completely any recourse to a polygraph....
    see [http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/polygraph.html])

Given that not every secular jurisdiction considers the polygraph to be
sufficiently reliable for admission as evidence, I am wondering how we
determine how reliable a test must be to be good enough  for halakhah.
Rov when we may be someikh on rov, and then some shiur for milsa delo
shekhichah otherwise?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 242
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."