Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 239

Thu, 26 Nov 2009

• 1. pampers (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: Chillul HaShem & Goyim (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 3. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 4. Re: Chillul HaShem & Goyim (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 5. minhag avos (Dov Kaiser)
• 6. Re: minhag avos (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Zev Sero)
• 8. thanksgiving practice (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 9. Re: minhag avos (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: thanksgiving practice (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: minhag avos (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. spread of chassidus (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 13. Re: spread of chassidus (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Yom Tov Sheni for Olim LeReget to the BeitMikdash (Michael Poppers)
• 15. Thanksgiving (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

>Still, even the Swaddlers are gerama, so I wonder what posqim will say.

Gil Student wrote to me that he contacted the Star-K, and they now 
say that the entire business was an error.  Presumably they will 
issue something about this in the near future.

YL
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RZS:
> The chilul Hashem issue that the Rosh raises is that since the Moslems
> take blasphemy against their religion very seriously, if we were to be
> lenient with this blasphemer against *our* religion they would conclude
> that we don't take it so seriously.

I'm not sure how accurate the following story is, but here goes:

A professor at YU claimed that Spinoza was put in Cheirem due to Pressure
from local non-Jews who would not tolerate his blasphemy and expected
the Jews to be in solidarity with their concerns.

If true, this strongly supports Zev's thesis that non-Jews (whether
Dutch Reform or Moslems) pressured us Jews to be zealous about certain
forms of blasphemy - even when it was an "internal" matter

[Note: The reason I have doubts re: the Spinoza story is that AFAIK
never saw this claim anywhere else]

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Zev Sero wrote:
> Pesachim (91a): [...] if he is incarcerated in an Israelite prison,
>
> See Rashi, who clearly rejects the idea that this refers to imprisonment
> as a punishment.   Does any rishon disagree with Rashi?
Rashi does not necessarily reject the idea - he does give examples of 
the use of imprisonment but does not say that these are the only uses. 
Look at Rambam(Hilchos Sanhedrin 24:9) where he simply says that 
imprisonment is a legitimate tool of the courts. 
<%04%03%03%0B%1DAA%16%16%16%18%%05%16,%11%04%0E,%0C%03%17%06%12%12,%13%0
C%06%0C%14%18%08%0C%10A%%11%08%17%0C%07%05A%%17,%06,%07%06A%05%%17,B999%20B
999.%18>
>> Rambam (Hilchos Chovel u?Mazik 8:11): Similarly all those who 
>> distress the community and harm it -- it is permitted to hand them 
>> over to the non-Jewish government to be beaten, imprisoned and punished.
> How does this support your claim that imprisonment is a legitimate
> punishment?  Who says the the government has the right to act as it does?
See Minchas Yitzchok (8:148) and Rav Wosner (2:58) - any society has a 
right to protect itself - including the right to imprison and execute.
Why would the Rambam say that you can turn a person over to the secular 
authorities to punish a Jew if those authorities are not allowed to 
punish in the ways that the Rambam specifies?


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rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> RZS:
>   
>> The chilul Hashem issue that the Rosh raises is that since the Moslems
>> take blasphemy against their religion very seriously, if we were to be
>> lenient with this blasphemer against *our* religion they would conclude
>> that we don't take it so seriously.
>>
>>     
>> A professor at YU claimed that Spinoza was put in Cheirem due to Pressure
>> from local non-Jews who would not tolerate his blasphemy and expected
>> the Jews to be in solidarity with their concerns.
>>     

    George Saver wrote:
    <http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/spinoza-12903>
    "Thus the Sephardim were relatively recent refugees who had to keep
    in the good graces of the authorities of the Dutch Netherlands. . .
    . Spinoza, and before him Uriel da Costa, had broken the official
    pledge the Sephardim had made to the Dutch government upon their
    arrival in the Netherlands that they would not tolerate the presence
    of atheists or "godless men" in their midst. The Sephardim had to
    conform to Dutch tradition and become, as it were, more Dutch than
    their Dutch hosts or else run the risk of being ruined economically
    or perhaps even expelled. In essence, therefore, Spinoza's
    excommunication was based on economic and political rather than on
    religious factors. . . ."

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The discussion of minhag avos vs. minhag hamakom reminded me of a question I will soon be facing.

 

I am now, thank G-d, a ben EY.  However, I will have a pressing need to spend next Pesach in London.  

My question is whether I should put on tefillin in Chol HaMoed.  My minhag
avos is to wear tefillin in Chol HaMoed.  However, the undisputed minhag EY
is not to wear tefillin, so I don't, because minhag hamakom trumps minhag
avos.  However, when I return to England, ought I to seek out a minyan
where they don't wear tefillin (to conform to my current practice in EY),
or a minyan where they do wear tefillin, to conform to my minhag avos. 
After all, in England there is no minhag hamakom in this regard.  Do we say
chozer v'neiur with regard to my minhag avos, or did it die forever upon my
settling in EY?  Of course, when Moshiach comes and Eliyahu Hanavi
clarifies that everyone should put on tefillin on Chol HaMoed, this
question will become moot.

 

I once met an English Jew (in England, not EY) who said that he waited 3
hours after meat because that is minhag Anglia.  Perhaps that was the case
a century ago, but with the pre- and post-war influxes of Jews from Eastern
Europe, I am doubtful whether there is still such a thing as minhag Anglia,
any more than there is a minhag America.

 

Another factoid:  I recently heard from a Dutch oleh who made aliyah
decades back that he asked R. Shaul Yisraeli whether he should continue to
wait only 1 hour after meat.  R. Yisraeli answered that, since he was not
affiliated with a kehilla of Jews who followed this custom, he should
abandon it in favour of the 6 hour wait.  This is interesting, because the
waiting period after meat is not a shul-specific custom, like nusach
hatefillah.  I suppose he would pasken that if I joined a Sephardi kehilla,
I would have to abandon all minhagei Ashkenaz (l'kula and l'chumra?) in
favour of the Sephardi minhagim. 

 

Kol tuv

Dov Kaiser
                                          
_________________________________________________________________
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I once met an English Jew (in England, not EY) who said that he waited 3
hours after meat because that is minhag Anglia.  Perhaps that was the case
a century ago, but with the pre- and post-war influxes of Jews from Eastern
Europe, I am doubtful whether there is still such a thing as minhag Anglia,
any more than there is a minhag America.


Kol tuv
Dov Kaiser

________________________________
Which raises a separate question also regarding chozer vniur - in theory
each influxed individual should have taken on the local custom.  The fact
that they didn't act appropriately, according to this theory, now means
there is no minhag hamakom????}

KT
Joel Rich
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Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
> Zev Sero wrote:
>> Pesachim (91a): [...] if he is incarcerated in an Israelite prison,
>>
>> See Rashi, who clearly rejects the idea that this refers to imprisonment
>> as a punishment.   Does any rishon disagree with Rashi?

> Rashi does not necessarily reject the idea - he does give examples of 
> the use of imprisonment but does not say that these are the only uses.

I disagree.  If imprisonment were a legitimate punishment, then Rashi
wouldn't need to comment on this; there would be no question for him
to answer.  The reason he comments and gives these examples is precisely
because the talmid knows that there is *no* such penalty as imprisonment,
so he naturally wonders what someone would be doing in a Jewish prison.
So Rashi answers that he is not there to be punished, but for some other
purpose.  If Rashi thought the talmid might have a question but would be
mistaken, then he would comment as you have done, that a beis din can
punish someone with imprisonment.

 
> Look at Rambam(Hilchos Sanhedrin 24:9) where he simply says that 
> imprisonment is a legitimate tool of the courts. 

But Rashi disagrees with that Rambam, which is merely quoting the gemara
in Moed Katan that you brought in your previous post.  Now I know where
you got the translation you gave; from the Rambam.  But Rashi explicitly
translates it otherwise.


>>> Rambam (Hilchos Chovel u?Mazik 8:11): Similarly all those who 
>>> distress the community and harm it -- it is permitted to hand them 
>>> over to the non-Jewish government to be beaten, imprisoned and punished.

>> How does this support your claim that imprisonment is a legitimate
>> punishment?  Who says the the government has the right to act as it does?

> See Minchas Yitzchok (8:148) and Rav Wosner (2:58) - any society has a 
> right to protect itself - including the right to imprison and execute.

They are not the Rambam.  I'm not asking about modern rabbonim, I'm
asking how this Rambam supports your claim.


> Why would the Rambam say that you can turn a person over to the secular 
> authorities to punish a Jew if those authorities are not allowed to 
> punish in the ways that the Rambam specifies?

Because the person is a threat to everyone's safety.  We can masser on
him for the same reason that we can push him down a pit, or at least
not rescue him when he has fallen himself.  It makes no difference
whether the government will treat him justly or unjustly; all we care
about is that he is no longer roaming the streets endangering people.
Therefore this can't be used as a proof that the government has the
right to imprison people.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

http://www.5tjt.com/news/PrintArticle.asp?Id=5295
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=42225  [see the comments]

should we  see thanksgiving  as  another area where the MO  world  has 
spoken---ie  the haredi world  universally assurs it ; the MO universally 
celebrates it?


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Dov Kaiser:
> Another factoid: I recently heard from a Dutch oleh who made aliyah
> decades back that he asked R. Shaul Yisraeli whether he should continue
> to wait only 1 hour after meat. R. Yisraeli answered that, since he
> was not affiliated with a kehilla of Jews who followed this custom, he
> should abandon it in favour of the 6 hour wait. This is interesting,
> because the waiting period after meat is not a shul-specific custom,
> like nusach hatefillah.

First every case is different
I know several Ashkenazi Jews who adopted Sephardic customs copletely,
and in fact afaik they both have Sephardic S'micha.
And as rabbis they practice that way in communities that are largely
devoid of Sephardim!

I don't know all the parameters of changing minhag. [Frankly, the only
poseiq I personally have trusted was R Shimon Schwab ZT"L who knew both
the Yekke and Yeshivishe sides equally well.]

Consider this:
An individual immigrant comes to Holland. AISI he typically chucks minhag
avos in favor of minhag hammaqom

And this:
An oleh. To EY - though this is trickier because Minhag EY comes in many
flavors [EG edot mizrach, GRA, Hassidic, etc.]

Now let's say an immigrant is in a "mixed community" and steadfastly
clings to Minhag Avos - what then?

EG
IIRC the Clanton Park Shul in Metro Toronto circa 1970 was about evenly
divided between Litvaks, Hungarians, and Yekkes. What if a Teimani
migrated there?

Bottom Line AISI:
To me the iqqar is consistency [like humros of BH vs. BS]
Take a system and stick to it as best as one can. And always conform
to the nusach of the shul whilst davening aloud
[Either for the amud or whilst responding aloud]

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

should we  see thanksgiving  as  another area where the MO  world  has spoken---ie  the haredi world  universally assurs it ; the MO universally celebrates it?
=============================================

IMHO this is a meta issue playing out in many arenas - to what extent are
we a ger and to what extent are we a toshav.  The charedi weltanschauung is
to focus more much on the gerness and the MO somewhat more on the
toshavness.  Of course to be extreme in either direction would be
justifiable by a horaat shaah, the challenge imho is when it is presented
as run of the mill halacha.

KT
Joel Rich



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RJR
> Which raises a separate question also regarding chozer vniur -- in theory
> each influxed individual should have taken on the local custom. The
> fact that they didn't act appropriately, according to this theory, now
> means there is no minhag hamakom????}

Question to ask:
How did they migrate?
En masse or as a trickle of individuals?

Let's say we have a city called DualTown
It started with an Ashkenazic community, and then Sephardim immigrated
in 1492 by the dozens. You now have a city with "2 batei dinnim"

AIUI Amsterdam and Hamburg [or AH"U] were like this.
And New Amsterdam NYC was the same in reverse.

Put this in Halachic terminology:
"Kama Kama batteil" works with drops, not with a signifcant flow or influx

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2009/11/1861-argument-to-esta
blish-girls.html

this little blurb  implies  that  1] the spread of chassidus in russia was 
not seen in a positive light
2]it was seen  as the fault of the wives, which could be prevented with 
education 

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On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 08:45:12AM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: this little blurb  implies  that  1] the spread of chassidus in russia was 
: not seen in a positive light
: 2]it was seen  as the fault of the wives, which could be prevented with 
: education 

Hisnagdus is no chiddush.

If anything, blaming the *wives'* ignorance rather than those mechuyavim
in talmud Torah is milder than what the Gra would have written.

BH this dispute is long over.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

In Avodah Digest V26#230, RnTK wrote:
> However, see this picture that I found of the new moon apparently visible
at dawn -- or perhaps this is just /before/ dawn and once the sun rises,
the
new  moon will no longer be visible?


_http://thegreenbelt.blogspot.com/2009/05/sky-watch-new-moon-and-mor
ning-sta
r-2.html_
(http://thegreenbelt.blogspot.com/2009/05/sky-watch-new-moo
n-and-morning-star-2.html)
 <
That's a pic of an _old_ (waning, or 3rd-quarter) moon...and the 'blogger
corrected himself the day after RnTK's post.  It was taken in the Northern
Hemisphere, where one sees the left side of the moon when it's waning.

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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OK we have identified
Two opposing Poisitons

Chareidi: 
If society does it, it is or probably is "treif".

Liberal or M.O.
Thanksgiving is Kosher and let's embrace it.

Question:
How would R SR Hirsch have viewed it?  
Personally I'm guessing that his relationship with secular culture
was selective and that he would embrace anything inspiring, positive,
or uplifting as long there was no specific Halachic barrier.

I was wondering What do the "Hirschians" on Avodah think?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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