Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 236

Mon, 23 Nov 2009

• 1. Re: Esav (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 2. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (T6...@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Raw food on Erev Shabbos (Gershon Dubin)
• 4. Re: Esav (Eli Turkel)
• 5. pampers (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: pampers (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Are there halachic issues with using the Mormon fmaily history web site? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: pampers (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Esav (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: Esav (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Was Esav a Rasha in the womb? (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Was Esav a Rasha in the womb? (Richard Wolberg)
• 16. Re: Raw food on Erev Shabbos (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 17. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Zev Sero)

> In discussing Esav=Edom we have to distinguish between various eras.
> In the chumash Esav is not painted in such black terms. Though he has
> his faults he does everything for his father and sincerely wants the berachot
> and eventually makes up with Yaakov.

Here is my simple p'shat of the 2 eras
That there are 2 dinnim in Esav :-)

The one, that person, in the Torah did only one explicit "crime" -
viz. He married "B'nos Cheis"

Thus Esav the person was not unredeemable

But Esav-Edom the nation IS evil mostly due to the wives of Esav who
served as Mothers to the nation of Edom!

So in yesterday's Hafatara "es Esav saneisi" imho address "am esav" 

This answers the issue of how could Yaakov give Dinah to Esav? This
P'shat assumes that Esav with a tzedekkes of a wife would have been "OK"
(assuming he kicked out the others as did Avraham)

Then I have another point.

That a major "meta-Mitzvah" and a ubiquitous recurring theme in
Torah-Tanach is against intermarriage.

Of course this idea influences my P'shat in how I see Esav.

"BUT RRW! How come Lei'ah cried her yeyes out?"

Ein hachi nami! Esav was no tzaddik and a "grubbe yung". But still not
yet the epitome of evil.

But 2 generations of intermarriage already produced Amaleik.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org

>> let me see if i understand  this.   if halacha does not  recognize  any 
of 
the  following  as  incarceratable offenses --  and i am not aware  that 
jail is in shulchan aruch for  these:  smuggling, sex abuse,  tax evasion, 
murder--    then  we  see these victims  [  ie  the convicted]  as as 
having been halachically   wronged; and we pray for their release.....<<

 
>>>>>>
 
IIANM, there are no incarcerable offences in halacha.  
 
(However, in general, dina demalchusa dina -- so if you're not sure whether 
 to daven for somebody in a specific case -- ask a shaila.)
 

--Toby Katz
==========



-------------------- 


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He says so in the Edus leYisrael but with no detail except "now that we
use gas stoves..."
 
Same blanket statement in both Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchaso and Bris Olam
(Rav Binyamin Zilber)(Rav Binyamin Hatzadik). (Bris Olam says it's minhag
anshei maaseh).  
 
Bris Olam  says that raw food will become partly cooked by the time
Shabbos really starts, since we are mekabel Shabbos before the zeman. 
Furthermore, he says that becoming yad soledes bo is already considered
partially cooked and no longer permitted due to kidra chaysa.
 
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
 
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:44:00 +1100 "I. Balbin" <Isaac.Bal...@rmit.edu.au>
writes:
> Hi,
> 
> I found it. Interestingly, he says it should be "completely cooked". 
> This means either to Ma'achol Ben D'rusoi or to Mitztamek Vera Lo.
> I'd be interested in seeing his discussion on this with more 
> details.
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<rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> "In discussing Esav=Edom we have to distinguish between various eras.
> In the chumash Esav is not painted in such black terms. Though he has
> his faults he does everything for his father and sincerely wants the berachot
> and eventually makes up with Yaakov."
>
> Here is my simple p'shat of the 2 eras
> That there are 2 dinnim in Esav :-)
>
> The one, that person, ?in the Torah did only one explicit "crime" - viz. He married "B'nos Cheis"
> Thus Esav the person was not unredeemable
> But Esav-Edom the nation IS evil mostly due to the wives of Esav who served as Mothers to the nation of Edom!
> So in yesterday's Hafatara "es Esav saneisi" imho address "am esav"
>
This assumes that the Romans were physical descendants of Esav. This
seems unlikely as
the Romans considered themselves relate dto the Greeks i.e.
descendants of Yefet and
not Shem. There is no evidence that the Romans were semites.

Furthermore later the term Edom was used for the vatican. Xtians are
certainly not physical
descendants of anyone as they are no longer an ethnic group.
Hence, the connection of Rome to Edom is symbolic and not physical


-- 
Eli Turkel

<<SHABBOS AND YOM TOV ALERT


Pampers Swaddlers Sensitive and Pampers Feel 'N Learn Advanced Trainer
diapers change color when the diaper is wet or dirty.  These diapers should
not be used on Shabbos or YomTov.>>

What is the problem? Is the infant doing a sin by changing the color
of the pampers?
The parents haven't done anyuthing and the infant is not capable of intent.
In any case it is derabbanan (mekalkel) and unintentional.


-- 
Eli Turkel

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 08:42:55AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: What is the problem? Is the infant doing a sin by changing the color
: of the pampers?
: The parents haven't done anyuthing and the infant is not capable of intent.

Is this true? I'm reminded of the practice of putting a young child near
a light switch the paarent wants flipped (or holding her in your arms
while standing next to it), knowing the child is bound to play with it.

: In any case it is derabbanan (mekalkel) and unintentional.

How is it meqalqeil? The parent obviously likes the idea of having an
indicator to know when to change the diaper -- otherwise, why did they
pay for the shtick, and why did Proctor and Gamble invest the time
developing this model diaper?

Is normal usage of an object qilqul when the object is not reusable?
And the melakhah itself, tzovei'ah, IS useful.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every second is a totally new world,
mi...@aishdas.org        and no moment is like any other.
http://www.aishdas.org           - Rabbi Chaim Vital
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 10:14:42AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Why?  I have never understood why people get so upset about this Mormon
: practise.

Because emotions and logic are different domain. People get annoyed when
others claim they belong to a camp they do not, even if that statement
doesn't affect them.

FWIW, I do not see your argument that Mormonism isn't AZ. Or, to remove
the double negative... They believe in the unity of the godhead in the same
sense as the unity of a family. And that the one who allegedly runs
our world is a fellow named Jesus who lived on Kolob (a star or planet,
according to their scriptures (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham,
ch 3), lead an examplary life, and was Exalted into the godhood. How is
that not worse shituf than trinitarianism if not AZ outright?

They also believe that both the Father and Jesus have physical, albeit
eternal, bodies. Not sure where the 7 mitzvos stands on what, except
leshitas haRaavad (who would permit belief in corporeality for Jews).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

At 01:42 AM 11/23/2009, Eli Turkel wrote:
><<SHABBOS AND YOM TOV ALERT Pampers
>
>What is the problem? Is the infant doing a sin by changing the color
>of the pampers?
>The parents haven't done anyuthing and the infant is not capable of intent.
>In any case it is derabbanan (mekalkel) and unintentional.
>
>
>--
>Eli Turkel

I have received essentially the same question from others.

I really have no idea what the problem supposedly is.

The only thing that I can suggest is that you contact the Star-K. 
They are the ones who issued this.

YL


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From: Eli Turkel
<rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But Esav-Edom the nation IS evil mostly due to the wives of Esav who
> served as Mothers to the nation of Edom!
> So in yesterday's Hafatara "es Esav saneisi" imho address "am esav"

This assumes that the Romans were physical descendants of Esav. This seems
unlikely as the Romans considered themselves relate dto the Greeks i.e.
...

Lav davka I'm addressing Rome

Just Edom

If you look back in Avodah I've already stated that midrashim attacking
Esav were thinly veiled criticisms of Rome.

But the navi mal'achi does state befeirush v'es Esav saneisi! Is he
using a thinly veiled technique, too? I don't think so

KT
RRW

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 02:21:36PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: If you look back in Avodah I've already stated that midrashim attacking
: Esav were thinly veiled criticisms of Rome.

While we're reminding people of old statements, I said something similar
in a thread on maaser kesafim.
The English word "salary" comes
from "sal", salt, because the Romans paid their soldiers their
"salarium" in salt.
(Thus the English idiom "worth his salt".)
The word "soldier" itself might be from sal+dar - to
give salt.

So, when the medrash tells us that Eisav asked his father whether he
should give maaser on salt, what is it really saying? If there were such
a concept as maaser kesafim at the time, would they have ridiculed Eisav
asking about maaser on the medium in which Edom was paid?

IIRC, the linkage between Edom and Rome are two-fold:

The more important one is that Edom ran their empire like anshei sadeh,
might makes right. Conceptually, this truly is galus Edom, regardless
of what entity is seen as spearheading western civilization. (When was
the last US president not elected "ki tzayid befiv", for his ability to
ensnare people verbally?)

The clincher was that the Empire ruled us via the Idumians (such as
Herod), which sounds like (but isn't) Edom. The Idumians might get their
name from Edom, having settled their land and forcing the benei Edom
westward into Judea (Melakhim II 24:2).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
mi...@aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 06:27:20PM +0200, Marty Bluke wrote:
: The Maharal says the following about Esav (Gur Aryeh on the pasuk
...
: Where is the free will here? Esav did not yet have a Yetzer Hara yet
: he wants to go to Avoda Zara?

I already asked the same question of people born with bad tempers or
with a taavah for MZ. Eisav was similarly afflicted, but in the realm of
AZ.

And I raised the question with a friend in shul. His answer, although
unsourced, appears to be compelling:

The yh"r arrives when the child is born. As Rashi (Qoheles 4:13) says,
it's tied to "lapesach chattas roveitz" (Ber 5:7). (I think his source
is Bereishis Rabba 34.) This is before there is a yh"r. So it would
seem that the yh"r is not taavah, not if they are caused by chemicals
and neurology.

Rather, it's that which tells the person to give in to those taavos. 
As RYS identifies it with the koach hadimyon. Which perhaps means the
yh"r isn't the desire, it's the fantasies we build around them. (Which
then reinforce them, make them insurmountable, etc...)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
mi...@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 10:26:50PM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: IIANM, there are no incarcerable offences in halacha.  

No, there are no offenses that REQUIRE incarceration. Beis din had a
jail and a prison. The meqosheish eitzim and the meqaleil were put in
a "mishmar" until sentencing. The Sifri (in discussing the meqosheish
eitzim) says that anyone who commits dinei nefashos is put in jail until
sentencing. The Y-mi Sanhedrin 7:8 writes about jail before trial and
sentencing for criminals. As for prison as a sentence: Sanhedrin 81b
and the Rambam Hil Sanhedrin 18:5 talk about life sentencing for repeat
offenders on capital offenses. The gemara's bit about forcing his early
death in prison is restricted to chayavei qerisus and murderers who are
proven guilty without valid eidus, as is seen from the Rambam, prison
in general isn't similarly limited.

Both Sanhedrin and non-Jewish gov't are halachically obligated to create
a safe society through law and punishment. This was the question I asked
earlier that I didn't notice anyone addressing. If the person in question
was found guilty of a crime that threatens the safety of society, is his
imprisonment a case requiring pidyon shevuyim? After all, the court is
doing it for obligatory purposes? And if not, is that because he is not
in shevi, or because it is dechuyah by uviarta hara beqirbekha?

I would see on these ground a difference between RCBrisker having the
city violate Yom Kippur to save a Bundist and appealing on behalf of
a thief. It would leave a lot of gray area for poseqim to address,
whether this particular crime makes the person a risk, or the leniency
in sentencing being demanded would put people at risk by those who would
otherwise be disuaded from doing the same crime.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Micha Berger wrote:

> Both Sanhedrin and non-Jewish gov't are halachically obligated to create
> a safe society through law and punishment. This was the question I asked
> earlier that I didn't notice anyone addressing. If the person in question
> was found guilty of a crime that threatens the safety of society, is his
> imprisonment a case requiring pidyon shevuyim?

Since it is permitted to inform on someone who poses a threat to the
community, it makes no sense to claim that one must then get him
released!

But that requires a determination that the person actually does pose such
a threat, not merely that he has been convicted of a crime which has been
put into a category of "crimes that affect public safety".  Labels don't
change reality.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

But that requires a determination that the person actually does pose such a
threat, not merely that he has been convicted of a crime which has been put
into a category of "crimes that affect public safety".	Labels don't change
reality.

-- 
Zev Sero                      
=====================
Actually, depending on one's understanding of DMD, I would say they do - i.e. if the King decides it is, it may well be.
KT
Joel Rich
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R' Marty wrote: 
Where is the free will here? Esav did not yet have a Yetzer Hara yet
he wants to go to Avoda Zara?
How do you understand this Maharal?

So why should this be any different from the whole problem of free will?
HaShem knows what you will choose even before you are conceived.
I have taught that if we were given the answer to the whole problem of free will,
we would no longer have it.
The analogy I like to give is the following:  If there was a video of your life up until
today and you watched it, would the fact that it has already been done, affect your
ability to have exercised free will? In the same way, God has a video of your life even
before you live it. For Him, past, present and future are all together. It is merely a 
construct for us mortals.  Therefore, just as our video of our past had no influence on
our free will, neither does God's video of the future.
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> Bris Olam  says that raw food will become partly cooked by the time
> Shabbos really starts, since we are mekabel Shabbos before the zeman. 
> Furthermore, he says that becoming yad soledes bo is already considered
> partially cooked and no longer permitted due to kidra chaysa.
> Gershon gershon.du...@juno.com

Ein hachi nami if it's edible by Friday Night dinner there is no hesech
hada'as aiui ...

EXCEPT see Turan and
BY (253) [D"H v'im nassan bah chatichah chaya] besheim Rambam that any
action to demonstrate an intention of hesech hada'as is sufficient to
avert the decree
"Midkar leih v'lo asi l'chatuyei"

[FWIW This is how I learned the sugya myself]

See Taz 253:2
MGA 253:1
Baier Hetev 3
Bei'ur Halacha [D"H
Masi'ach daato mimena ad boker]

"Lo gazru chachaimim she'ein daato le'echol az" echoing Rambam-BY

Therefore AISI
Any cholent pot deignated for the morning se'udah

AND

One has done an action demonstarting hesech hada'as of putting in a raw
piece of meat right before Shabbos

Is OK

If one puts the raw meet too much before Shabbos starts then it's not
OK because it is no longer chay but rather "mevushal v'eino mevushal"

AFAIK Rav Henkin's issue is that since we start shabbos earlier, it's
nowadays a problem that it's not raw by tzeis

But I say so what? Since we light candles earlier therefore the hesech
hada'as takes place earlier!

Ken Nireh LFAD

[Email #2. -mi]

Addendum
See AhS 253:8
He says my svara that so long as not ready for s'udas halayla it's a good
hesech hada'as even though 3-4 hours later it will be ready Friday Night

I don't see AhS [or even my s'vara] as anything but pashut p'shat.

The point "hochacha" of his intentions ayein sham.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Rich, Joel wrote:
> 
>> But that requires a determination that the person actually does pose
>> such a threat, not merely that he has been convicted of a crime which
>> has been put into a category of "crimes that affect public safety".
>> Labels don't change reality.
 
> Actually, depending on one's understanding of DMD, I would say they do
> - i.e. if the King decides it is, it may well be.

What conceivable translation of the word "dina" would yield such a result?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher


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