Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 215

Sat, 31 Oct 2009

• 1. Re: dinosaurs (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: me marom (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Attending religious services other than Jewish (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: The plot against the Nasi (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: me marom (Zev Sero)
• 6. Virtual Glyph Theory (Jay F Shachter)
• 7. Re: children at a wedding (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 8. Re: Tayshvu K'ein Taduru (David Riceman)
• 9. Re: Attending religious services other than Jewish (Gershon Dubin)
• 10. Re: Attending religious services other than Jewish (Harry Maryles)
• 11. RSRH on the Advantages and Disadvantages of the Ghetto (Yitzchok Levine)
• 12. Re: Virtual Glyph Theory (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: children at a wedding (Daniel Israel)
• 14. Re: children at a wedding (Samuel Svarc)
• 15. Re: Attending religious services other than Jewish (Daniel Israel)
• 16. Re: Attending religious services other than Jewish (Ilana Sober Elzufon)
• 17. Re: Attending religious services other than Jewish (Akiva Blum)
• 18. Re: Attending religious services other than Jewish (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 02:43:14PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: Shitah A doesn't hold that B is a kofer, rather that he is wrong...
: if Shitah A really believes in what he is saying, he can 
: suffer/tolerate/accept people who are wrong.

I think you switched A and B, but major poseqim posited a B, that a
particular author was a kofeir for writing shitah A. So yes, it's about
kefirah, not correctness.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 11:27:36AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: Exactly.  And a few pages before that he made exactly the same remark
: about Ketia bar Shalom.  The second story was about teshuvah.  How does
: that indicate, in any way at all, that the first and third stories were
: also about teshuvah?  Do you think all three stories are about the same
: thing?  If so, why tell all three?

And if it's a different topic, why would it be in the same sugya?

The point of telling all three would require finding what the tzad that
is not shaveh, and seeing how all three stories are necessary. Not the
first time the gemara included varations on a theme without explaining
why.

In any case, I do not see how someone who chooses to stop killing others
before being promised anything doesn't qualify as a BT. Or how a gift
from a tzadiq gozeir would be called "qoneh olamo".

I also don't understand something in RYA's original post (Oct 19th):
>                      He found himself in perek 10 of Urie Veyishi, and takes
> the mechaber to mean, in the words of my friend, that even after "Tshuvah
> Me'Ahavah, a person still needs to be purged of his sins in Gehenom. The
> Baal Teshuavh will enjoy the pain however, because of the realization of the
> ultimate benefit."

What does it mean to suffer in gehenom but enjoying the pain? If it's a
pleasant experience, in what sense is it pain? How does it purge anything?
And if the person wants to be corrected, how can one say there is an
internalized problem left to be purged of?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Elliot

Claudia Gaspar wrote:
> A friend of mine who is x-tian lost his 20-year old son in a terrible 
> motorcycle accident.
> 
> He invited me to attend a mass and I know it's very important to him I 
> can be present in a so painful time. 
> 
> I don't know what to to. Is it an 'ethics' I can observe under such 
> conditions?

The first question that comes to my mind is: is this a Catholic mass?
If so, I don't see any possibility for a heter, under any circumstances.
A Catholic mass involves an act which is mamash avodah zarah according
to all opinions (any opinion that claims otherwise is unaware of what
goes on there).  If it is some other kind of Xianity, then perhaps
there might under some circumstances be some kind of possibility for
leniency, and it may be worth taking the she'elah to a rov; the answer
will probably be "no", but at least there's something to ask about.

As for what to do, I suggest arriving outside the church before the
ceremony, and making sure your friends sees you there, and then making
sure he sees you again outside the church after it's over.  With luck
he may not even realise you weren't inside; if he does, at least he
will know that you came for him.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 09:06:02PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
: Micha Berger wrote:
:> In any case, I have a problem attributing multi-generational rivalry to
:> the extent that one implies it compromised the search for an objective
:> halakhah. Too "historical school" for my tastes.

: See Horayos 14a "bnei adam shebikshu la'akor kvodcha ukvod beis avicha".

That's the same sugya as where we began. RLR cited 13b.

As I said, it's when it gets "to the extent that one implies it
compromised the search for an objective halakhah" that the idea just
doesn't sit comfortably with me. There is a difference between citing
"Acheirim" or "Yeish Omerim" and not citing the opinion at all.

And again, I'm speaking about what doesn't fit my tastes; I'm not saying
it's wrong -- just that I would be happier with a different resolution.

And so I was only suggesting that I would be happier with a different
explanation for RLR's observation that:
> It is probably due to this that R' Nosson although quoted by name in
> hundreds of Brysos, is very rarely mentioned in Mishnayos, which were
> edited by Rabbon Shimon ben Gamliel's son, R Yehudah Hanossi.

Even including "yeish omerim", which Bar Ilan
<http://www.responsa.co.il> tells me doesn't appear in mishnayos
nor tosefta at all. (Y"A appears 6 times in their text of the mishnah
including citations, all meaning "11", and none in the Tosefta. The full
text produced no hits.)

So, I would suggest that R' Noson simply didn't pasqen as much as other
tannaim.

R' Meir is also the stam mishnah because he was the compiler of the
manuscript that Rebbe strarted from, so his relationship to all this is
far more complex.

Aside from being the stam mishnah, Bar Ilan found "Meir" 208 times in
the mishnah. Searching for "Noson" would require going through occurances
and ruling out the verb "nasan", so I lack the time. Going up one
generation in the shalsheles to R' Aqiva (both "Aqiva" and "Aqivah") I
got only 166 hits. He is quoted by name frequently.

R' Meir's version of the mishnah were probably a talmid's attempt to
organize the medrashei halakhah of /his/ rebbe, R' Aqiva. Devei R' Aqiva
produced:
    * Shemos: Mekhilta deRabbi Shim'on bar Yochai
    * Vayiqra: Sifra (Sifra deVei Rav, Toras Kohanim)
    * Bamidbar: Sifrei Zuta
    * Devarim: Sifrei


The other beis medrash, R' Yishma'el's produced:
    * Shemos: Mekhila (a/k/a Mekhilta deRabbi Yeshima'el)
    * Bamidbar: Sifrei
    * Devarim: Mekhilta Devarim

Notice that this means that our Sifrei comes from two differen sources,
Bamidbar and Devarim come from devei R' Yishma'el and devei R' Aqiva,
respectively.

I think this whole tangent is important, because it relates to R'
Aqiva's 19 middos shehaTorah nidreshes bahem, and R' Yishma'el's 13
(which also accomodate "diberah Torah belashon benei Adam" in a way
R' Aqiva does not).

All of which being... Frequently named or not, R' Meir is a HUGE piece
of how the mishnah even exists! And perhaps that's why Rebbe didn't
lemaaseh follow the kelal given in Horiyos.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 11:27:36AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : Exactly.  And a few pages before that he made exactly the same remark
> : about Ketia bar Shalom.  The second story was about teshuvah.  How does
> : that indicate, in any way at all, that the first and third stories were
> : also about teshuvah?  Do you think all three stories are about the same
> : thing?  If so, why tell all three?
> 
> And if it's a different topic, why would it be in the same sugya?

The three stories are not precisely in the same sugya -- they're
separated by several pages -- but they are in the same perek, and
are therefore clearly connected.

 
> The point of telling all three would require finding what the tzad that
> is not shaveh, and seeing how all three stories are necessary. Not the
> first time the gemara included varations on a theme without explaining
> why.

I've already suggested an explanation for all three stories several
posts ago.  They represent three *different* ways to get instant OHB,
and teshuvah is only one of those ways.


> In any case, I do not see how someone who chooses to stop killing others
> before being promised anything doesn't qualify as a BT.

Where do you see that he chose to stop killing people at all, let
alone before being promised anything?  On the contrary, his offer to
kill RChbT quickly was conditioned on the promise of OHB; simple pshat
in the gemara is that this was a deal, quid pro quo, and had RChbT not
agreed to his terms he would have let him suffer.


> Or how a gift from a tzadiq gozeir would be called "qoneh olamo".

How is it not?  He literally *bought* his OHB.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Toward the end of this week's parasha, the name Avram is changed to
Avraham, by acquiring the Hebrew letter "h?", and the name Sarai is
changed to Sarah, by replacing the Hebrew letter "yod" with the Hebrew
letter "h?".  Our sages have taught us (Palestinian Talmud, Tractate
Sanhedrin, Chapter 9, Halakha 6) that this paired change illustrates the
law of conservation of gematria, which asserts that in a closed system
gematria can be neither created nor destroyed.  The change in Avraham's
name, which involved a +5 change in gematria value, is offset by the
change in Sarah's name, which involved a -5 change in gematria value.

One would expect, however, that this paired change would proceed in the
following manner: The yod in "Sarai" decays into two h?s, one of which
remains bound to the other two letters while the other is emitted.  The
emitted h? is then captured by Avram. who absorbs it and becomes
Avraham.  The point is that, in all frames of reference, the change in
Sarai's name must precede the change in Avram's name, as the h? capture
which results in the formation of Avraham is made possible only by the
prior yod decay involved in the formation of Sarah.  Empirical evidence,
though, contradicts this theory.  Avram became Avraham sometime after
Genesis 17:5, but no later than Genesis 17:9, whereas six verses later,
at the beginning of Genesis 17:15, Sarai was still Sarai, and she did
not become Sarah until the end of the verse.  Thus, in at least one
frame of reference, the h? capture preceded the yod decay, which is a
violation of the conservation law.

Apparently, the law of conservation of gematria can be violated for
short periods of time.  The h? that Avraham absorbed was not emitted by
Sarah.  Rather, it was a virtual glyph.  Virtual glyphs can exist for a
small number of verses, but then they must disappear; the product of the
gematria of the glyph, and the number of verses, must be less than or
equal to Shachter's Constant.  Virtual glyphs can become real only if
the deficit is made up elsewhere through the annihilation of a glyph, or
glyphs, of equal gematria.

I am currently exploring the idea that the attraction between Avraham
and Sarah may be caused by the constant exchange of virtual glyphs,
which cannot otherwise be detected.  I cannot predict yet where the
equations will lead but I expect that the results will be cause for
laughter in certain quarters.


                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 N Whipple St
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"

R' David Riceman wrote:
> The function of attending a wedding to be "m'sameah hatan
> v'kallah".  If your attendance has the opposite effect it
> makes sense not to go.  Of course this is a weaker
> requirement than being "wholeheartedly besimcha", which I
> imagine is assur anyway until the reconstruction of the
> temple.

Thank you for suggesting an explanation.

But I have been presuming that in the case we are discussing, the child
does want to attend the parent's wedding, and also the parent wants the
child to attend. But af al pi kayn, they are being told of a "minhag" that
the child should not attend.

Am I mistaken about the case? Perhaps the reason behind this minhag was to
institute a "lo plug" for the cases where the parent wants the child to
attend but the child doesn't want to?

Akiva Miller

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kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> As I understand it, the mitzvah of sukkah exists on three levels, and all of them are d'Oraisa:
>
> 1) There is a Chiyuv D'Oraisa to eat bread in the Sukkah on the first night, whether he wants to or not.
>
> 2) After the first night, if he chooses to eat a Seudas Keva, he has a Mitzvah Chiyuvis, on a d'Oraisa level, to eat it in the Sukkah.
>
> 3) If he chooses to eat a Seudas Arai, he has a Mitzvah Kiyumis, on a d'Oraisa level, to eat it in the Sukkah.
>
> <snip>
>   
> The smallest of my questions is that if Tayshvu K'ein Taduru teaches
> that eating a Seudas Arai in the Sukkah is optional, then from where
> do we know that we get s'char if we choose to do so? In other words,
> if Tayshvu K'ein Taduru teaches that the Mitzvah Chiyuvis doesn't
> exist for a Seudas Arai, then from where do we learn that the Mitzvah
> Kiyumis *does* exist? Maybe there's no Mitzvah Kiyumis at all, and it
> is merely a Hanhaga Tova?
>   
I like my house.  I do many things (such as work) in my house which many 
people do in places other than their houses.  I could, for example, walk 
a block to the library to read email (the library has wifi).  But I 
don't, because I like hanging out at home.  I think the idea of a kiyum 
comes from this simple observation.  Most people use their houses for 
more than the minimum of what people use their houses for.  So those 
other usages are also k'ein taduru.
> It makes me wonder if Levels 2 and 3 are d'Oraisa at all. Is it
> possible that there really is no pasuk anywhere that requires a Seudas
> Keva (after the first night) to be eaten in the Sukkah? Is it possible
> that this chiyuv is actually a d'Rabanan?
>   
The d'orayysa and d'rabbanan distinction is a red herring.  The 
determination of what actions require a sukkah is sociological.
> But is that really so? Let's think back to the recent discussions
> about Shmini Atzeres in chu"l. There are a variety of conclusions on
> what the Halacha L'Maaseh is, but I'd like to cite one of the
> arguments which was used in those discussions. Consider this
> statement: "Presuming the weather is good enough, it is not out of the
> ordinary to eat a seudas keva in the backyard instead of in the
> house." It seems to me that no Rishonim or Acharonim disagreed with
> that statement. (They might disagree with the halacha, but they don't
> seem to disagree with this statement of common eating practices.)
>   
I recall recent aharonim arguing like this, to avoid the problem of bal 
tosif.  Does this argument appear anywhere in Hazal or rishonim? I 
suspect that halacha gelled in an era when people didn't eat full meals 
outside except in extremis, and the basic sifrei psak reflect that 
archaic reality.

David Riceman

A RC associate at my firm died a few years ago, and the religious people at
the firm went to the wake (which was in a funeral chapel) (One person, a
kohen, went early enough to "catch" the family at home and express his
condolences, thereby avoiding issues of tum'as ohel).
Due to the long standing association with religious people, the person's
family understood that we could not come to the funeral mass on Saturday. 
Given the fact that we did not ignore the family and shlepped nearly two
hours each way to the wake,  I think it would have been understood even if
the mass was not on Shabbos.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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--- On Fri, 10/30/09, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:


On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 01:55:35PM -0200, Claudia Gaspar wrote:
: A friend of mine who is x-tian lost his 20-year old son in a terrible
: motorcycle accident.
: He invited me to attend a mass and I know it's very important to him I can
: be present in a so painful time.

Ask your poseiq, of course. But speaking on a theoretical plane...

RYBS didn't allow watching JFK's Catholic funeral on TV. We're talking
about actual AZ here, at least WRT our participation. (Shituf and 6
mitzvos benei Noach aside, we're talking about you attending.) I expect
a poseiq would tell you that you can't do one of the yeihareig ve'al
ya'avor to save someone else some pain.
----------------------------------------------
?
This is a difficult question to answer and well below my pay grade. But
FWIW?I agree with R' Micha. Even going into a Church is Assur - let alone
listening to a priest deliver a sermon there.
?
OTOH you should definitely ask a Posek.? 
?
During the the President's inauguration he invited members of the clergy to
speak at the National Cathedral in DC. He included members of all Jewish
religious denominations which of course means Orthodox rabbis too.
?
After several Orthodox rabbis politely refused, Rabbi Lookstein accepted. He was criticized for that by many but he?offered a vigorous defense of it.
?
I don't think it is as clear cut as it may seem. That's why I say you should consult a Posek about what to do in your personal circumstance.
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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The following is from Rav Hirsch's commentary on Bereishis 14: 12

They also took Lot and his movable property ? [he 
was] the son of the brother of Avram ? and they went, for he was an inhabitant
of Sodom.

The ghettoes that isolated us worked not only to our disadvantage,
but also to our advantage. Those who lived within the ghetto walls were
shielded from many evils to which those outside fell victim during the
Middle Ages. Jews were not considered good enough to become judges
or law-enforcement officials, or to join the retinues of knights. They were
not permitted to participate in tournaments, and they took no part in
world affairs. But neither did they have a part in the torturing, slaughtering,
strangling or incineration of their fellow men. They were often
the victims, but never the victimizers. Their hands were not stained with
human blood, and when fate caught up with the emperors and their
armies, the Jews remained safe in their ghettoes. They should be happy
that they were called to the arena of world affairs only now, when the
nations of the world are at least trying to act justly and humanely. 
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Jay F Shachter wrote:
> Our sages have taught us (Palestinian Talmud, Tractate
> Sanhedrin, Chapter 9, Halakha 6)

Are you sure you got that reference right?  I don't see it there.  

Rashi on the Chumash (17:5) gives a different conservation law:
the yud from Sarai did not split, but was transferred entire into
Hoshea, transforming him into Yehoshua.  The two heis that were
attracted to Avraham and Sarah came from elsewhere; it seems that
glyphs can be created but not destroyed.


> Apparently, the law of conservation of gematria can be violated for
> short periods of time.

Not necessarily such short periods.  Yaakov was long before Eliyahu,
and yet he captured five vavs from him.  (Rashi Vayikra 26:42)

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Quoting "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>:
> Are you suggesting that a person should not attend a wedding unless   
> he will be there "wholeheartedly besimcha"?
>
> Would that logic forbid a parent to attend a child's wedding, if the  
>  parent is opposed to this shidduch?

This is a minhag, not a halacha, so it doesn't necessarily have to be  
rigorously logical.  However, I would assume that the distinction is  
that the tzar of a child whose parent is remarrying (for whatever  
reason) is connected to the mitzvah of kibud to the other parent.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

I think that a parent and child are entirely different in their reaction (in aggregate).

A parent doesn't wish a child bad. The fact that the parent forsees this
shidduch as a bad one for the child will cause the parent to daven extra
hard at the chuppah that they be wrong. Not so the child. A "tzip in hartz"
is a "tzip" regardless.

KT,
MSS 
-----------------------
Sent from my Treo(r) smartphone

-----Original Message-----
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Friday, Oct 30, 2009 5:51 am
Subject: Re: [Avodah] children at a wedding
To: avodah@lists.aishdas.orgReply-To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

R'n Toby Katz wrote:
 Children "fashter" the simcha because in their hearts they are
 never wholeheartedly besimcha to see one parent marrying
 another partner, whether the other parent died or was "lost"
 because of divorce.  To see a parent re-marrying causes a
 child tza'ar (even an adult child). The tza'ar the child feels,
 however slight, puts a chill on the simcha.  I  don't want to
 say that a child might cause an ayin hara at his parent's
 wedding but maybe something like that.

On the one hand, despite many posts in this thread, and the several sources
offered for this practice, this is the first and (so far) only attempt at
explaining the *reasons* behind this practice. And for that I offer my
thanks to RTK.

But I still don't understand it.

Are you suggesting that a person should not attend a wedding unless he will be there "wholeheartedly besimcha"?

Would that logic forbid a parent to attend a child's wedding, if the parent
is opposed to this shidduch? It sounds like a very similar situation.
Suppose the parent had been opposed, and is still opposed, but sees that
his protests will be ignored, so he chooses to make peace and attend while
attempting to wear a happy face. Should such a parent stay home rather than
make the best of an unfortunate situation?

And if this parent's opposition was generally known among family and friends, won't his attendance "put a chill on the simcha" when others see?

I don't see much difference, especially if the parent's opposition was well-founded and truly in the child's interests.

Akiva Miller

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Quoting Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>:
> (One person, a kohen, went early enough to "catch" the family at   
> home and express his condolences, thereby avoiding issues of tum'as   
> ohel).

I thought we paskened l'ma'aseh that there is no tumas meis by a  
non-Jew.  Was I incorrect?  Or were there (at least potentially)  
Jewish meisim at this funeral home?

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

RHM:  During the the President's inauguration he invited members of
the clergy to speak at the National Cathedral in DC. He included
members of all Jewish religious denominations which of course means
Orthodox rabbis too.
>
> After several Orthodox rabbis politely refused, Rabbi Lookstein accepted. He was criticized for that by many but he?offered a vigorous defense of it.

Not to express an opinion on Rabbi Lookstein's decision - but for the
record, it should be noted that the National Cathedral is
Episcopalian, not Catholic.

- Ilana

-----Original Message-----
From: "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name>

Claudia Gaspar wrote:
> A friend of mine who is x-tian lost his 20-year old son in a terrible 
> motorcycle accident.
> 
> He invited me to attend a mass and I know it's very important to him I 
> can be present in a so painful time. 
> 
> I don't know what to to. Is it an 'ethics' I can observe under such 
> conditions?

As for what to do, I suggest arriving outside the church before the
ceremony, and making sure your friends sees you there, and then making
sure he sees you again outside the church after it's over.  With luck
he may not even realise you weren't inside; if he does, at least he
will know that you came for him.

-- >>>>>>>>>>>>

Would that be acceptable, to create the impression that you had participated in a ceremony of AZ?

Akiva

RGD:
> A RC associate at my firm died a few years ago, and the religious
> people at the firm went to the wake (which was in a funeral chapel)
> (One person, a kohen, went early enough to "catch" the family at home
> and express his condolences, thereby avoiding issues of tum'as ohel)

R Gershon might be suggesting a novel solution:

[Mashal]
Just as Jewish Kohanim attend funerals but only by remaining outside
the funeral home,
[Nimshal]
so we - the proverbial "mamleches kohanim" - could do the same by
attending these services but still remain outside the ohel.

Gut Voch
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 215
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