Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 213

Fri, 30 Oct 2009

• 1. Re: dinosaurs (Micha Berger)
• 2. Jewish Divorce Rate (Richard Wolberg)
• 3. Re: [Areivim] Halacha of speeding/Jewish ethics curriculum development help (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: The plot against the Nasi (Micha Berger)
• 5. dinosaurs (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: [Areivim] Halacha of speeding/Jewish ethics curriculum development help (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: The plot against the Nasi (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 8. Re: dinosaurs (Harry Maryles)
• 9. having a melech: lechatchila or bideved??? (Harvey Benton)
• 10. Bensching Gomel (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 11. Re: Bensching Gomel (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: having a melech: lechatchila or bideved??? (David Riceman)
• 13. Re: having a melech: lechatchila or bideved??? (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: dinosaurs (T6...@aol.com)
• 15. Re: dinosaurs (Ilana Sober Elzufon)
• 16. Re: children at a wedding (kennethgmil...@juno.com)

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:04:56PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: I wrote a post about it yesterday. It has thus far generated 121
: comments. The discussion going on there is excellent.

I find the same old discussion of science and Torah, and maaseh
Bereishis in particular, to have been way overdone. I am surprised that
after 5 years, people aren't as weary as I.

What I want to know is the resulting issue of mesorah and emunas
chakhamim when you have to deal with rabbanim who consider your position
to be kefirah. As RSZN's question put it:
: what would you tell the BT how to handle, when his kid's says didnt
: exist......

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

In response to some beliefs, the following may be of interest and much  
of a surprise to me:

ChaeRan Freeze explores the impact of various forces on marriage and  
divorce among Jews in 19th-century Russia.
Challenging romantic views of the Jewish family in the shtetl, she  
shows that divorce rates among Russian Jews in
the first half of the century were astronomical compared to the non- 
Jewish population.

"If that is not enough, evidence also indicates that there was a high  
level of divorce in Eastern Europe traditional Jewish society."
 From the article "It's All Relative: The Contemporary Orthodox Jewish  
Family in America"  By Chaim I. Waxman
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On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:29:05AM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: In any event, aiui you are positing that chazal's " intelligence"
: as iiuc you call it later, is not uniquely reproducible by rational
: reasoning based on the written and oral law and rules given at sinai.
: If so, we can conclude the discussion.

Of course I would not consider it uniquely reproducible. My position on
eilu va'eilu and multiple valid positions has been repeated here ad
nauseum. If there is more than one right answer, then we couldn't
possibly have a methodology whose results are "uniquely reproducible".

Just as a poet can find multiple ways of saying the same thing, and even
someone using rich enough formal grammar rules can find multiple answers.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:31:47AM -0000, L Reich wrote:
: May I draw your attention to an (probably unintended) irony. Our Siddur
: includes a collection of Brysos starting "Pitum Haktores" relating
: to the preparation of incense used in the Beis Hamikdosh. It included
: a piece by Rabbon Shimon ben Gamliel.
: Surprisingly this piece is sandwiched between two pieces by his arch
: rival, R' Nosson.

Unless the attribution to R' Shim'on ben Elazar is more correct. In
which mei raglayim is excluded from the "azarah", not the "miqdash" but
otherwise the same. See nusach haGra and his rationale.

In any case, I have a problem attributing multi-generational rivalry to
the extent that one implies it compromised the search for an objective
halakhah. Too "historical school" for my tastes.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

At 04:09 PM 10/29/2009, Saul.Z.Newman wrote:

>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/28/dealing-with-a-re
>bbes-comments-about-dinosaurs/
>
>what would you tell the BT  how to handle  , when his kid's  rebbe says
>dinosaurs didnt exist......
A friend of mine told me that one of his daughters came home and said 
that her moreh said that there never were any dinosaurs. All the 
bones that they show are from big dogs. He took his daughter to the 
Museum of Natural History and showed her the dinosaur bones. He asked 
her, "Do these look like the bones of big dogs?" She replied, "No."

Perhaps this fellow should call the rebbe and ask him to join him on 
a trip to the Museum of Natural History.

Rav A. Miller told me that Noach did not take the dinosaurs with him. 
I asked him, "Is this how they disappeared?" He replied, "Do you have 
a better explanation? Until you do, this one will have to do." He did 
not deny that such creatures had existed.

Yitzchok Levine 
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Of course I would not consider it uniquely reproducible. My position on
eilu va'eilu and multiple valid positions has been repeated here ad
nauseum. If there is more than one right answer, then we couldn't possibly
have a methodology whose results are "uniquely reproducible".

Just as a poet can find multiple ways of saying the same thing, and even someone using rich enough formal grammar rules can find multiple answers.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
_______________________________________________
So the same posek faced with the same question (in parallel but otherwise the same) universes could reach a different decision?
KT
Joel Rich
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lre...@tiscali.co.uk
> The Talmud Bavli at the end of Horayos (13b) relates a remarkable
> tale. Two Tanoim, R' Nosson and R' Meir were unhappy withthe way the Nasi,
> Rabbon Shimon ben Gamliel, conducted his post (they though him arrogant)
> and plotted to oust him.

It is quite possible that RSBG inheritted some of his father's arrogance.

It is also likely that RSBG was "guilty" of yichus and as a result
developed a sense of entitlement

R Meir was the big illuy, but had zero Yichus - IIRC descended from
geirim.

R Nosson hailed from Bavel and while quite capable, was after all a
quintissential outsider.

So AIUI, the more talented ousiders were trying to overthrow the merely
adequate insiders.

BH, Rebbe had it all. He had both Yichus and was equal or better than all
his colleagues in Torah Gravitas - not to mention his politcal prowess.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

--- On Thu, 10/29/09, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:


On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:04:56PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: I wrote a post about it yesterday. It has thus far generated 121
: comments. The discussion going on there is excellent.

I find the same old discussion of science and Torah, and maaseh
Bereishis in particular, to have been way overdone. I am surprised that
after 5 years, people aren't as weary as I.

What I want to know is the resulting issue of mesorah and emunas
chakhamim when you have to deal with rabbanim who consider your position
to be kefirah. As RSZN's question put it:
: what would you tell the BT how to handle, when his kid's says didnt
: exist......
----------------------------------------
?
Although you're right about this discussion being old and overdone this has
a somewhat different Kneitch -and very relevant to Chinuch and the future
of our children. 
?
If Mechanchim refuse to recognize what was - until a few years ago -
legitimate alternative explanations of the Sheshes Yemei Bereishis that
factor in what we know?about natural history from scientific inquiry, then
the chances of producing?skeptics will increase. The easy access to all
kinds of information about the age of the universe and the existence of
dinosaurs etc. is bound to raise serious questions about the dogmatic
literal approach that this Mechanech insists is the only way to teach the
Sheshes Yemei B'reishis.
?
How you gonna keep em down on the farm after they've seen Paree (Paris)??
?
This is a serious concern?that should not be glossed over because of?Torah/science fatigue.
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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Is having a melech a bidieved or a lechatchila?
In the torah it mentions "when you will ask for a king like the nations
around you...."  This sounds like to me that God does/did not want us to
have a king like the rest of the nations, but, like the spies, and the
shlav, God went along with it and instituted the mitzvah of us having a
king. 
This is also the view of the Rambam, if I am not mistaken, regarding the
korbanos. It is only to appease us that Hashem instituted the korbanos as
mitzvos, not necessarily because He wants us to have them....... HB 



      

Note: This is based upon a true story but with minor changes

Erev Sukkos, "Hayyim" climbed a ladder to fix the s'chach on his sukkah
He over-reached and fell to the earth. BH - although bruised etc. -he
is walking around...


Issue 1:
How come "shluchei mitzvah einan nizzaqin" didn't prevent Hayyim from
falling?

Issue 2
Re: Haggomel. Hayyim survived a near-death accident. But, since he
is still suffering minor fractures and bruises, he has not recovered
100% yet.

The halachah in SA O.H. 219:1 states that a choleh bensches only after
"shenisrapei"

MB: 2 v'holeich k'var al buryo"

Now Hayyim is going to shul, albeit he is in pain.

When should he Bensch Gomeil?

Is surviving the fall the iqqar and the healing of the bones tafeil -
and therefore he should bensch ASAP for merely surviving?

Or does he need more "buryo" before he says the brachah?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 


Issue 1:
How come "shluchei mitzvah einan nizzaqin" didn't prevent Hayyim from falling?

See psachim 8b


KT
Joel Rich
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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
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Thank you.

Harvey Benton wrote:
> Is having a melech a bidieved or a lechatchila?
>   
See Ibn Ezra Shoftim 17:15 s.v. "Som Tasim".

David Riceman

Harvey Benton wrote:
> Is having a melech a bidieved or a lechatchila?
> In the torah it mentions "when you will ask for a king like the
> nations around you...."  This sounds like to me that God does/did
> not want us to have a king like the rest of the nations, but, like
> the spies, and the shlav, God went along with it and instituted the
> mitzvah of us having a king. 

That's how it would seem from the chumash and from Shmuel, but the
Rambam is pretty clear that it's lechatchila, that we were meant
eventually to have a king, that it's one of the three mitzvos that
we were to fulfil when we were ready for them.

And this must be so, because if it were bediavad, and only to be
implemented if we really insisted, then Moshiach would not restore
the monarchy; having come to understand that it's not desirable, we
would no longer ask for it, so why restore it?  So we must understand
the chumash and Shmuel as not being against a king per se, but against
demanding one for the stated reason: to be like the goyim.  Had we not
demanded a king of Shmuel for this reason, we would eventually have
grown enough to understand that we need a king for our own reasons,
having nothing to do with the goyim, and then Hashem would have been
glad to give us one.


> This is also the view of the Rambam, if I am not mistaken, regarding
> the korbanos. It is only to appease us that Hashem instituted the
> korbanos as mitzvos, not necessarily because He wants us to have them....... HB 

Only if you take the Moreh at its word.  Certainly there is not a hint
of this attitude in the Yad or the Pirush Hamishnayos.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

-------------------- 
 

 
From:  Saul.Z.New...@kp.org

http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/28/dealing-with-a-rebbes-comments-
about-dino
saurs/

what  would you tell the BT  how to handle  , when his kid's  rebbe  says 
dinosaurs didnt exist......


 
 
>>>>>
 
This is what I wrote there in the BeyondBT comments section:
 
I would tell the child that some people agree with his rebbe but other  
people do not, and that there are various opinions among rabbanim and talmidei  
chachamim about dinosaurs.  I wouldn't say it in a way to suggest, "Your  
rebbe is an ignoramus" but rather, "Your rebbe is following one opinion, but  
there are others."  Presumably the child is already familiar with Rashi's  
in which two different opinions are cited about this or that, so the idea of 
 rabbanim with different opinions is not new.  
 
You do not want to set up a situation in which a child believes that a  
rebbe can never be wrong or that there can never be more than one opinion.   
Because when he comes across evidence that his rebbe was wrong or that others  
disagree, it may shake his faith in the whole system. He may conclude, not 
that  the rebbe was wrong, but that the Torah is wrong.
 
Of course these doubts are not likely to be a problem at the age of six but 
 you need to start with a good foundation so that when he is in his teens 
he  knows there are various opinions.  He also has to know from an early age  
that he can ask questions without being an apikores for asking.
 
 
----
 
What I did not write was an answer to what might be the child's next  
question:  "But what do /you/ think?  Do /you/ agree with my  rebbe?"  My answer 
to that question would be, "No, I follow the opinion of  other rabbanim who 
think that dinosaurs really did exist."  I would be very  careful to 
modulate my tone of voice so as not to suggest any hint of disrespect  or disdain 
for the rebbe.  Any such disdain that I might feel would be  saved strictly 
for adult company, in, for example, the next issue of  Avodah.
 

--Toby Katz
==========




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My older daughter has been fascinated by both Torah and science at least
from kindergarten. Fortunately, AFAIK, no teacher ever told her that
dinosaurs didn't exist.

In general, when I don't have a good way of reconciling Torah with science
(and this child has been reading secular science magazines and books since
she learned how to read, so her science was never filtered through Bais
Yaakov), I say straight out that it's a good question and I don't know the
answer. Sometimes she keeps working on the problem and refining her
hypotheses. Recently (she's 13), she gobbled up Natan Aviezer's book on
Creation and Science in a single day. I expect she will continue reading and
thinking on the topic and refining her understanding. Unlike me, she has the
FFB advantage of a firmly imprinted worldview from a very young age that G-d
created the universe - I think the strength of her emunah gives her the
ability to ask hard questions without ch"v stumbling into kefirah. Whereas
I, who was raised with kefirah, find that more challenging.

As far as the BT on the blog - I think a good answer (and it's hard to think
of a good answer on the spot) would have been something like: It is hard to
understand where dinosaurs fit in the story of Bereishit. Different rabbis
have different ideas. Some people say that there were no dinosaurs - G-d
just made dinosaur bones and put them in the ground. Other people say that
G-d did create dinosaurs along with the other animals, but they all died.
Your rebbe is correct that no one has ever seen a dinosaur, and no one knows
the real answer to the question.

I'm not sure if I would get into the age-of-the-universe question with a
six-year-old. I originally chose not to, but my daughter discussed the
matter with an older cousin and got information that way, and it doesn't
seem to have done her any harm. So the father could also have said something
like, We don't really understand how time worked when the world was created.
Some people think that "days" were much longer back then, and that the world
is very old. But I would be cautious with this, because I wouldn't want to
swear the child to secrecy and I am sure there are parents in the school who
would not want their first graders exposed to these ideas.

- Ilana
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R'n Toby Katz wrote:
> Children "fashter" the simcha because in their hearts they are
> never wholeheartedly besimcha to see one parent marrying
> another partner, whether the other parent died or was "lost"
> because of divorce.  To see a parent re-marrying causes a
> child tza'ar (even an adult child). The tza'ar the child feels,
> however slight, puts a chill on the simcha.  I  don't want to
> say that a child might cause an ayin hara at his parent's
> wedding but maybe something like that.

On the one hand, despite many posts in this thread, and the several sources
offered for this practice, this is the first and (so far) only attempt at
explaining the *reasons* behind this practice. And for that I offer my
thanks to RTK.

But I still don't understand it.

Are you suggesting that a person should not attend a wedding unless he will be there "wholeheartedly besimcha"?

Would that logic forbid a parent to attend a child's wedding, if the parent
is opposed to this shidduch? It sounds like a very similar situation.
Suppose the parent had been opposed, and is still opposed, but sees that
his protests will be ignored, so he chooses to make peace and attend while
attempting to wear a happy face. Should such a parent stay home rather than
make the best of an unfortunate situation?

And if this parent's opposition was generally known among family and friends, won't his attendance "put a chill on the simcha" when others see?

I don't see much difference, especially if the parent's opposition was well-founded and truly in the child's interests.

Akiva Miller

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