Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 188

Tue, 15 Sep 2009

• 1. Re: RHS and dairy (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: ger toshav/azarah; b'ey; bizman hamashiach??? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Re RHS and dairy (martin brody)
• 4. Re: Re RHS and dairy (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: pirkei avos v. chochma yevanit; see mekoros...... (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: tzaddik (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: tzaddik (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: ger toshav/azarah; b'ey; bizman hamashiach??? (Akiva Blum)
• 9. Re: ger toshav/azarah; b'ey; bizman hamashiach??? (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: ger toshav/azarah; b'ey; bizman hamashiach??? (Zev Sero)
• 11. Why "Tashlich" and not Hashlachah? (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: Re RHS and dairy (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Re RHS and dairy (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: RHS and dairy (torahm...@gmail.com)
• 15. Re: Why "Tashlich" and not Hashlachah? (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Selichos first night after chatzos (torahm...@gmail.com)
• 17. Re: Re RHS and dairy (Goldmeier)
• 18. Re: Re RHS and dairy (Zev Sero)
• 19. Re: Re RHS and dairy (Zev Sero)

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 01:32:43AM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
:                                          I thought the definition of  
: "treifah" was that the animal had suffered a disease or injury that rendered it  
: non-viable -- that it would soon die.  If this puncture leaves the cow  
: alive, healthy, and producing milk for many years, I just don't understand how  
: it could possibly be considered "treifah."  

The definition of a tereifah is an animal that that one of a speific
list of mumim. The CI says it's halakhah leMoshe miSinai, and R' Moshe
Feinstein agrees.

OTOH, in the contet of whether someone is guilty of murder, a mum is
only one the victim couldn't have otherwise recovered from.

See the threads:
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=C#CHAZON%20I
SH%20ON%20NATURE
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=K#KILLING%20A%20TR
EIFA
both of which are in vol 8, the digests numbered in the 60s.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

R' Zev Sero asked:
> Where is this Ramo that says Xianity (i.e. the RC that was
>  dominant in Poland) is shituf not AZ for goyim?

Rav Aryeh Kaplan, in The Handbook Of Jewish Thought 1:20, cites a long list of sources for this. among them the Hagah on Orach Chayim 156:1.

R' Harvey Benton asked:
> Does that mean that all churches would have to be closed
> down and all xians expelled from EY unless they abandoned
> their azara/trinity beliefs? Or, could they claim, that
> their halachos of 7MBN in regards to this issue differ
> than ours, and that therefore they should be allowed to stay???

Rav Aryeh Kaplan (in his footnote on the above) cites a dissenting opinion
that non-Jews are allowed shituf only in chu"l, but not in EY - Ramban on
Vayikra 18:25 and other sources.


Akiva Miller

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"Marty Bluke wrote:
> RHS holds like this because nowadays they do a procedure to all cows
> (something related to puncturing the stomach) that may make them a
> treifa. This is not a natural occurrence.

Is that the reason, or is it because on the rare occasions when cows
are shechted they are found to have a very high incidence of treifos?
--
Zev Sero   "

The fact that many aged cows may be diseased etc., RHS still seems to be
ignoring Rov. The vast majority of milking cows are young and healthy. Happy
cows come from California.

Martin Brody
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The fact that many aged cows may be diseased etc., RHS still seems to be
ignoring Rov. The vast majority of milking cows are young and healthy.
Happy cows come from California.

Martin Brody

========================================================

The real question is how do you define the sample that you're  looking at (all cows in the world, all milk cows in the world, all milk cows in the US...)
KVCT
Joel Rich

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On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 11:50:37PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: 1. are pirkei avos considered by us to be halachot, or just good
: advice?? (and what were they considered to be in previous generations??)

See the Bartenura on Avos 1:1. He defines "pirqei avos" using "avos"
the same manner as "avos melakhah" -- categories that are logically
prior. IOW, leshitaso, Pirqei Avos presents the moral and conceptual
underpinnings upon which halakhah is based.

: 2. when it says in pirkei avos to "da ma she tashuv l'apikorus" how
: do we rank it in importance when it comes into conflict with the ban on
: learning chochma yevanit????

What's the substance of that ban? The Rambam's knowledge of chokhmah
Yevaneis clearly goes beyond rebutting it. And see comments on "Yaft
E-lokim leYefes".

See the Encyc Talmudit, "chokhmos chitzoniyos".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 09:33:05AM -0400, Eli Turkel wrote:
: There are many differences between the Moreh and Yad Chazakah.
: As Micha points out one is in the definition of tzaddik.
...
: RYBS gnerally seemed to prefer the reasons mentioned in the Yad over
: that of the Moreh.
: He mentions it explicitly for shofar

I don't think we can generalized from taamei hamitzvos to philosophy
in general.

I think there is a big piece to the puzzle missing about how the Rambam
relates actions, ideas and middos to each other; and if we had it, this
would make a lot of these questions go away.

The concept of "taam hamitzvah" is open to multiple interpretations. RDR
brings R Prof Isadore Twersky's suggestion that the Moreh is giving
the purpose of mitzvos, whereas the Yad is giving motivations. However,
there are many such chiluqim that could be suggested.

The Chinukh speaks of mishoreshei hamitzvah -- a partial description
of the conceptual source of the mitzvah (the "avos" mentioned in my
previous post).

RSRH speaks of lessons HQBH is teaching the performer.

RYBS doesn't engage in either project, he's too Brisker to think they're
possible. Instead, he talks about lessons we can draw, post-facto,
from our encounter with them. "Hermeneutics", as he puts it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
mi...@aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 09:33:05AM -0400, Eli Turkel wrote:
: There are many differences between the Moreh and Yad Chazakah.
: As Micha points out one is in the definition of tzaddik.
...
: RYBS gnerally seemed to prefer the reasons mentioned in the Yad over
: that of the Moreh.
: He mentions it explicitly for shofar

I don't think we can generalized from taamei hamitzvos to philosophy
in general.

I think there is a big piece to the puzzle missing about how the Rambam
relates actions, ideas and middos to each other; and if we had it, this
would make a lot of these questions go away.

The concept of "taam hamitzvah" is open to multiple interpretations. RDR
brings R Prof Isadore Twersky's suggestion that the Moreh is giving
the purpose of mitzvos, whereas the Yad is giving motivations. However,
there are many such chiluqim that could be suggested.

The Chinukh speaks of mishoreshei hamitzvah -- a partial description
of the conceptual source of the mitzvah (the "avos" mentioned in my
previous post).

RSRH speaks of lessons HQBH is teaching the performer.

RYBS doesn't engage in either project, he's too Brisker to think they're
possible. Instead, he talks about lessons we can draw, post-facto,
from our encounter with them. "Hermeneutics", as he puts it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
mi...@aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous

> [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of 
> R' Zev Sero asked:
> > Where is this Ramo that says Xianity (i.e. the RC that was
> >  dominant in Poland) is shituf not AZ for goyim?
> 
> Rav Aryeh Kaplan, in The Handbook Of Jewish Thought 1:20, 
> cites a long list of sources for this. among them the Hagah 
> on Orach Chayim 156:1.
> 

Could you recheck that. Hilchos netilas yodayim?

kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> R' Zev Sero asked:
>> Where is this Ramo that says Xianity (i.e. the RC that was
>>  dominant in Poland) is shituf not AZ for goyim?
> 
> Rav Aryeh Kaplan, in The Handbook Of Jewish Thought 1:20, cites a
> long list of sources for this. among them the Hagah on Orach Chayim
> 156:1.

That Ramo is not about their worship but about the oaths that they
would commonly make in the days of the Rishonim (Tosfos Sanhedrin 63b).  
Now I don't know what exactly Tosfos means by "they swear by their
holy things but don't attribute godhood to them"; what exactly was it
that they were swearing by?  Evidently not their god's blood, wounds,
or body, which is what Englishmen used to swear by, all of which are
the AZ himself, not "joining Hashem's name to something else".  Nor
can they have been swearing by the bread and wine of their sacrament,
since they absolutely *did* regard these as gods.  So what were these
"kodshim" on which 12th-century Frenchmen would swear? 

At any rate, one cannot use this Tosfos, or the Ramo who quotes it,
to claim that RC worship itself is mutar for goyim.


 
> R' Harvey Benton asked:
>> Does that mean that all churches would have to be closed
>> down and all xians expelled from EY unless they abandoned
>> their azara/trinity beliefs?

Of course, but even more than that: even Islam must be suppressed,
when we have the power to do so.  "We must not allow them to invent
a new religion or to make up mitzvos for themselves".  (Rambam,
Melachim 10:9)


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Akiva Blum wrote:
>> [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of 
>> R' Zev Sero asked:
>>> Where is this Ramo that says Xianity (i.e. the RC that was
>>>  dominant in Poland) is shituf not AZ for goyim?
>> Rav Aryeh Kaplan, in The Handbook Of Jewish Thought 1:20, 
>> cites a long list of sources for this. among them the Hagah 
>> on Orach Chayim 156:1.

> Could you recheck that. Hilchos netilas yodayim?

No, it's hilchos masa umatan.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

A colleague was bewildered and asked me:
> Why do we call Tashlich "Tashlich" and not "Hashlachah?"
> EG Kappros, hoshanos, hakafos are all nouns.

I gave him an answer, but I was wondering if anyone had a more definitive one

Shana Tova
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

martin brody wrote:

> The fact that many aged cows may be diseased etc., RHS still seems
> to be ignoring Rov. The vast majority of milking cows are young and
> healthy.

How do you know, without shechting a representative sample and checking?


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 05:26:48PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: How do you know, without shechting a representative sample and checking?

And how would you ever get farmers to agree to letting you shecht a
*representative* sample, rather than those cows that are not producing
quality or sufficient quantity milk?

To slaughter enough randomly selected in use cows to get a statistical
sample would cost a fortune.

I don't think it qualifies for efshar levareir.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke

>>I know this has been discussed at length in many a learned article, but I
>>still don't understand the basic point.  I thought the definition of
>>"treifah" was that the animal had suffered a disease or injury that
rendered it
>>non-viable -- that it would soon die.  If this puncture leaves the cow
>>alive, healthy, and producing milk for many years, I just don't understand
how
>>it could possibly be considered "treifah."

  If I remember correctly, RHS explained to me that whether we go by the
science of the times to determine
if the animal would have lived through the year, or whether we go strictly
according to the simanim of trefus that we have
a kabbalah on,  is a machlokes rishonim between the Rashba and the Rambam.
Apparently the dairy cows, after shechita,
almost all show the halachic signs of treifus.

   -MW
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rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> A colleague was bewildered and asked me:
>> Why do we call Tashlich "Tashlich" and not "Hashlachah?"
>> EG Kappros, hoshanos, hakafos are all nouns.

Why should it be called "hashlacha"? We don't throw anything, we ask
Hashem "vetashlich bimtzulot yam kol chatotam".  "Tashlich" is the
name of this kind of prayer, just as "slicha" is the name of the kind
of prayer we're saying this week.   If we were to say many "tashlich"
prayers, we would probably call them "tashlichs".

Kaparot are the chickens, which are a kaparah for us.

Hoshanot are once again what we ask Hashem: "Hosha na"; it's a verb
just like "tashlich", and also the name of the prayer that it
comprises, of which we say many, so we refer to them in the plural.

Hakafot are what we actually do.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Marty Bluke
> The prevalent minhag has become to say selichos right after chatzos
> on the first night of selichos. What is the makor for this? In shulchan
> aruch it says that the minhag is to get up early to say selichos. I
> didn't see anywhere a distinction between the first night and the other
> days. It is clear from the shulchan aruch and mefarshav that the best
> time to say selichos is a little before alos hashachar.?
 This web page has a concise summary of all the zmanei selichos, as well
as a reason for the distinction between motzai shabbos and the other days:

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/71976
0/Rabbi_Josh_Flug/The_Recitation_of_Selichot
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from what I understand, and I might be wrong, there is not much cross-over, 
and this is unlikely to be an issue. Some cows are raised for slaughter. 
Some cows are raised for milking. The different types are fed different 
foods and vitaminds and hormones. A farmer will not likely let his dairy 
cows be used a sampler for shechita. Also, a cow that was raised for milk 
might not be a good and accurate indicator of a rov of cows that are raised 
for meat.

Kol tuv
Rafi
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
To: <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Re RHS and dairy


> And how would you ever get farmers to agree to letting you shecht a
> *representative* sample, rather than those cows that are not producing
> quality or sufficient quantity milk?
> 

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 05:26:48PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : How do you know, without shechting a representative sample and checking?
> 
> And how would you ever get farmers to agree to letting you shecht a
> *representative* sample, rather than those cows that are not producing
> quality or sufficient quantity milk?

You couldn't.  Which is exactly my point.  Without such an experiment,
which is highly impractical, how could the poster to whom that was
directed know that the majority of dairy cows are kosher?


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Goldmeier wrote:
> from what I understand, and I might be wrong, there is not much 
> cross-over, and this is unlikely to be an issue.

What do you mean it's unlikely to be an issue?  This is the whole point!

> Some cows are raised 
> for slaughter. Some cows are raised for milking. The different types are 
> fed different foods and vitaminds and hormones. A farmer will not likely 
> let his dairy cows be used a sampler for shechita.

Exactly.  So how can one claim that there is a rov?


> Also, a cow that was 
> raised for milk might not be a good and accurate indicator of a rov of 
> cows that are raised for meat.

Of course not, and nobody would suggest such a thing.  But it works
the other way too.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher


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