Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 187

Mon, 14 Sep 2009

• 1. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: [Areivim] RHS and dairy (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Interesting pesak (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 4. Re: baruch sheamar -from shamayim? but not torah???? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: who is to blame??; re:moshe rabeinu and Eretz Yisrael???? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: who is to blame??; re:moshe rabeinu and Eretz Yisrael???? (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: who is to blame??; re:moshe rabeinu and Eretz Yisrael???? (Zev Sero)
• 9. ger toshav/azarah; b'ey; bizman hamashiach??? (Harvey Benton)
• 10. Re: ger toshav/azarah; b'ey; bizman hamashiach??? (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 12. Kashrut and Gneivat Daat (Liron Kopinsky)
• 13. Why is the minhag to say selichos right after chatzos on the first night? (Marty Bluke)
• 14. Re: Why is the minhag to say selichos right after chatzos on the first night? (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Why is the minhag to say selichos right after chatzos onthe first night? (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 16. Re: The shape of the Menorah of the Temple (Mandel, Seth)
• 17. moshe and losing one's temper; 2 blamees... (Harvey Benton)
• 18. Re: RHS and dairy (T6...@aol.com)

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 03:50:14PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: Huh?  Who said that?  Of course we will go back to doing it al pi
: re'iyah, as soon as we can.

That depends if even in the late bayis sheini era "al pi re'iyah" was
instead of calculation. It depends what is meant by the gemara about
beis din not convening so as to prevent eidim from coming early
when they want a chodesh malei. It seems to imply that by that point,
al pi re'iyah was part of the qiyum hamitzvah, not a birur when to
do it.

So, it could well be that we both produce a more precise calendar AND go
al pi re'iyah. Or, since we need human intervenetion each month, we put
in a one-time correction to the calendar and accept eidim based on that
adjustment to Hillel's calendar.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Marty Bluke wrote:
> RHS holds like this because nowadays they do a procedure to all cows
> (something related to puncturing the stomach) that may make them a
> treifa. This is not a natural occurrence.

Is that the reason, or is it because on the rare occasions when cows
are shechted they are found to have a very high incidence of treifos?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

RGD:
> He said in the name of his father that since K"Sh is zeman gerama, and
> the berachos flow with that, she should say pesukei dezimra since it is
> related to the shemonei esrei in which is definitely mechuyeves.

Please explain what that looks like? 
Baruch she'amar thru yishtabach then skip to the Amidah? 
 
Shana Tova 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Sat, Sep 05, 2009 at 11:40:01PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: why the concept of "torah lav be'shamayhim hi", but not for a tefilah
: like baruch sheamar???? A similar question might be asked of "unetana
sokef" and it's source...

The words came from heaven, or a dream (at least according to the usual
story). The pesaq to incorporate it into the siddur, or the minhag
placing it into the machzor, was subsequent, and done using the normal
methodology.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 10:20:44AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: >On the topic of changes..... we are also told also that Moshe changed a 
: >large aleph to a small one....against Hashem's will.........hb

: Huh?  Where are we told such a thing?

The argument between HQBH and Moshe Rabbeinu recorded in the Sifri quoted
by Rashi on Moshe's the source of "horns". Which in turn dovetails with
the first Rashi in Vayiqra, based on the notion that MRAH wanted to oly
have it written the arai-connoting "vayiqar".

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> RZS
>> Those places that never had the minhag were not required to adopt it.
> 
> Agrees
> Therefore any Jew who moved out of his year 358 CE location were now
> off the hook - such as Western Hemisphere
> And the original gzeira has faded away accept maybe Iraq and Persia!

No, you have it backwards.   Places that always kept one day were not
required to adopt two days.   New places that have no established
minhag have to go after the whole world, which is to keep two days.
The most radical take on this is the Rambam, who applies it even to
new settlements in EY itself; since they have no tradition of one day
they are drawn after the general minhag of the whole world.  Others
don't apply it that radically, because they don't believe that's what
the Sanhedrin could have had in mind.  But there's no sevara that a
Ben-Bavel can move to a new location and suddenly keep one day!

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 10:20:44AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : >On the topic of changes..... we are also told also that Moshe changed a 
> : >large aleph to a small one....against Hashem's will.........hb
> 
> : Huh?  Where are we told such a thing?
> 
> The argument between HQBH and Moshe Rabbeinu recorded in the Sifri quoted
> by Rashi on Moshe's the source of "horns".

Which Rashi is this?  At the end of Ki Tisa (where the "horns" are),
I don't see any reference to an argument.


> Which in turn dovetails with
> the first Rashi in Vayiqra, based on the notion that MRAH wanted to oly
> have it written the arai-connoting "vayiqar".

Where do you see this in Rashi?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 10:20:44AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : >On the topic of changes..... we are also told also that Moshe changed a 
> : >large aleph to a small one....against Hashem's will.........hb
> 
> : Huh?  Where are we told such a thing?
> 
> The argument between HQBH and Moshe Rabbeinu recorded in the Sifri quoted
> by Rashi on Moshe's the source of "horns". Which in turn dovetails with
> the first Rashi in Vayiqra, based on the notion that MRAH wanted to oly
> have it written the arai-connoting "vayiqar".

I think you're thinking of the Baal Haturim.  Is his source from a
medrash?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

1. From my learning of hilchos yaayin nesach/yayin stam etc, it seems that
some poskim hold that for xians to believe in a trinity is not azara, but
for us to believe in a trinity of sorts, is avodah zara. 
2. The torah paints a grim picture of what would happen if we would allow
avodahzarahnickers to reside in our land....namely, they would be thorns in
our sides.
3. What would the halacha be for non-Jews to reside in EYisrael once the Moshiach Came?
4. At the minimum I believe, they would have to accept the Sheva Mitzvos
Bne'i Noah. One of those 7 is to not believe in (or practice?) idolatry.
Does that mean that all churches would have to be closed down and all xians
expelled from EY? unless they abandoned their azara/trinity beliefs? Or,
could they claim, that their halachos of 7MBN in regards to
 this issue differ than ours, and that therefore they should be allowed to stay???
HB
p.s. The machloket was between the mechaber (R.Yosef Kaaro) v. the Rama, as
to how we hold their A Zara to be; each posek (i believe) relying on the
jewish environs from where they paskened from to determine his psak.hb
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Harvey Benton wrote:
> 1. From my learning of hilchos yaayin nesach/yayin stam etc, it seems 
> that some poskim hold that for xians to believe in a trinity is not 
> azara, but for us to believe in a trinity of sorts, is avodah zara.


> p.s. The machloket was between the mechaber (R.Yosef Kaaro) v. the Rama, 
> as to how we hold their A Zara to be; each posek (i believe) relying on 
> the jewish environs from where they paskened from to determine his psak.hb

Where is this Ramo that says Xianity (i.e. the RC that was dominant in
Poland) is shituf not AZ for goyim?  I have not been able to find it
inside.
 


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Zev Sero:
> But there's no sevara that a 
> Ben-Bavel can move to a new location and suddenly keep one day! 

Let's say "Ein hachi nami" -- and so if that is the case 

Then anyone [even when IN EY] who cannot trace their lineage to 358 CE
must perforce keep 2 days. Since they lack any exemption!

Which AIUI contravenes hacham Zvi and Minhag Chabad about instant one
day upon arrival @ Lod.

Also since my family has not lived in Bavel arguably for 1,000 the psaq
is inapplicable! The gzeira -- if really construed narrowly -- applies
only to Iraq and Persia

If construed broadly, then all the other parameters -- including Those
that Zev persists upon pasqening a fundamentalist read --
are also subject to svara and not fundamentalism 

IOW mah nafshach! stick either to narrow philology or to Halachic Svaros!

And since We KNOW the svara-principle of maqom magiin underlies this
g'zeiro; Therefore there is no reason NOT to apply it!.

Of course A bona fide poseiq may override it with other
meta-considerations. But I don't see any lamdus that Forces us to pretend
that maqom magiin is not the underlying dynamic for the perimeter or
1 day vs. 2! Now If you say the Rambam rejects it fine. Maybe he made
another g'zeira based upon other criteria which begs the question what
criteria is that?

Shana Tova 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

I went to a shiur last night on Gneivat Daat and came across an
interesting Rambam related to the discussion here on Kashrut.

Rambam, Hilchot Deot, Perek Bet, Halacha Vav: (translation mine
because the list serve won't transmit hebrew.)

...And it is forbidden to Steal the Minds of other people...
And what is Gneivas Daas?
... Don't entreat a friend to eat with you when you know that he
won't... (V'Al Yesarhev bChaveiro sheYochal Etzlo vHu Yodea sheEino
Ochel

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/1202n.htm

The prevalent minhag has become to say selichos right after chatzos on
the first night of selichos. What is the makor for this? In shulchan
aruch it says that the minhag is to get up early to say selichos. I
didn't see anywhere a distinction between the first night and the
other days. It is clear from the shulchan aruch and mefarshav that the
best time to say selichos is a little before alos hashachar.

Marty Bluke wrote:
> The prevalent minhag has become to say selichos right after chatzos on
> the first night of selichos. What is the makor for this? In shulchan
> aruch it says that the minhag is to get up early to say selichos. I
> didn't see anywhere a distinction between the first night and the
> other days. It is clear from the shulchan aruch and mefarshav that the
> best time to say selichos is a little before alos hashachar.

I think it's because of the piyut "bemotzaei menucha kidamnucha
techila".  Sunday morning is no longer "motzaei menucha".  Which of
course punts the question to whoever wrote the piyut.  Or perhaps
the minhag is older than the piyut, and your question is reinstated.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Marty Bluke 
> The prevalent minhag has become to say selichos right after chatzos
> on the first night of selichos. What is the makor for this? In shulchan
> aruch it says that the minhag is to get up early to say selichos. I
> didn't see anywhere a distinction between the first night and the other
> days. It is clear from the shulchan aruch and mefarshav that the best
> time to say selichos is a little before alos hashachar.?

Some quick observations
+ Yekkes do say the first selichos at about 6:30 AM in Wash. Heights 
+ The pizmon bemotza'ei menuchah suggests saying it on motza'ei
  Shabbos. Again it suggests, not compels.
 
I don't know how the first night became distinguished. We can speculate
that it is due to zrizin maqdimin...
 
Shana Tova 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

This new data provides additional support to my central hypothesis, that
the branches of the menorah were neither semi-circular nor straight. 
Indeed, this depiction is remarkably similar to the only other
representation we have from the time the Bet haMiqdash was standing, and
there is no possible way to reconcile these depictions with the theory that
the branches were straight.
My other hypothesis was that the description by the Rishonim that seem to
indicate that the branches were straight do not necessarily mean that, and
can refer to branches that are not semicircular but still curved, as the
branches are depicted in this new source.  In particular, I claim that the
Rambam in Perush haMishnayot clearly describes (in Arabic) that his drawing
is only schematic, and that it is equally possible, and, in my opinion,
more probable, that in a schematic drawing he would have drawn arms that
are elliptical not as semicircular but as straight.  The new depiction
cannot confirm that hypothesis, of course; the only one who could confirm
that would have been the Rambam.  However, the additional years and study
of all of the drawings of the Rambam in the Perush haMishnayot and Mishneh
Torah have only strengthened my conviction that my hypothesis is correct,
and that the Rambam's drawings, although not proving the exact shape that
the Rambam thought the branche
 s to be, show only that he did not believe them to be semicircular and in no way show that he thought they were straight.
Seth Mandel
________________________________________
From: Micha Berger [mi...@aishdas.org]
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 2:12 PM
To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group; Mandel, Seth
Subject: The shape of the Menorah of the Temple

We discussed at length in the past (back in Chanukah 2003, eg RSM's post
at <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol12/v12n065.shtml#12>) the question
of the shape of the branches of the menorah in the BHMQ. Here's another
data point in facor of curved arms.

> Full article at
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133388
> by Gil Ronen

> (IsraelNN.com) The Israel Antiquities Authority has uncovered one of
> the world's oldest synagogues in an excavation at Migdal, near the Sea
> of Galilee (Kinneret). Inside the synagogue, a stone relief contains a
> depiction of the seven branched Menorah which stood in the Temple, and
> which was most likely seen by the artist who sculpted the stone
> relief.

> Known depictions of the Menorah from Second Temple times include the
> famous relief of Titus's Arch in Rome, which shows Roman soldiers
> taking it away after destroying the Temple, and depictions on
> contemporary coins as well as graffiti etched into stone in
> Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter. However, the new find is said to be the
> first which includes a relief etched by an artist contemporary with
> the Temple.

(Hat tip: R' Yisrael Markov on scjm.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

rbw:
When someone looses their temper, they have no one to blame but themselves. 

rtk:
It was B'Y's fault that Moshe lost his temper.? If they hadn't provoked him he never would have hit the rock.
hb:? neither answer imo answers the question as to why Hashem Explicitly
blames moshe and then in devarim, moshe blames bnei yisrael. How can there
be two different blamees for the same episode, in the same text (chumash)
that we hold was written with Hashem's Guidance???.....HB
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In Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 186 dated 9/11/2009

From:  Marty Bluke _marty.bluke@gmail.com_ (mailto:marty.bl...@gmail.com) 

>>  RHS holds like this because nowadays they do a procedure to all  cows
(something related to puncturing the stomach) that may make them  a
treifa. This is not a natural occurrence.<<
>>>>>>
I know this has been discussed at length in many a learned article, but I  
still don't understand the basic point.  I thought the definition of  
"treifah" was that the animal had suffered a disease or injury that rendered it  
non-viable -- that it would soon die.  If this puncture leaves the cow  
alive, healthy, and producing milk for many years, I just don't understand how  
it could possibly be considered "treifah."  


--Toby  Katz
==========



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