Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 183

Thu, 10 Sep 2009

• 1. Re: Acharonim (and Mussar) as TT, Redux (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Gershon Dubin)
• 3. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: who is to blame??; re:moshe rabeinu and Eretz Yisrael???? (Liron Kopinsky)
• 6. Re: who is to blame??; re:moshe rabeinu and Eretz Yisrael???? (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Ilana Sober Elzufon)
• 9. Re: Gezeiros after Sanhedrin (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: Kashrus of a Restaurant Under the Supervision of its Owner (David Riceman)
• 11. Euphrates (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: pshat in Rambam on teshuva (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Ben Waxman)
• 14. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Richard Wolpoe)
• 15. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Ben Waxman)
• 16. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 17. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Micha Berger)

I'm inclined to agree with RAM. Talmud Torah is defined by the ameilus,
not the content. I therefore would define Torah for the sake of talmud
Torah in terms of what the person is immersing himself in.

Nefesh haChaim IV opens (first 4 peraqim or so) that a person immersed
in Torah has a mind that is purified, shaleim, causes tiqunei olam,
and his ratzon becomes unified with HQBH. The contrapositive would tell
us that any and only ameilus which purifies the soul is talmud Torah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

From: Micha Berger mi...@aishdas.org

<<I suggested here a number of years ago that the essence of Yom Tov
sheini shel galiyos was a reminder that qiddush hachodesh ought to be
al pi re'iyah>>
More than that.  If the masu'os were stopped mishekilkelu hatzedukim,
why would phone/fax/email/IM be less subject to ziyuf?  Unless of
course we're talking when there are no more tzedukim and we're zocheh
to the rish'ah being kala ke'ashan.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
____________________________________________________________
Click here for great quotes from top international movers!
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rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:

> In the good old days there were 2 classes of YT observance 
> YT Rishon only - within the perimeter of "maqom shemaggim sham
> hashluchim", And outisde that perimeter where 2 days were observed
> Given today's comunications the entire world is notifiable virtually
> instantly. [Exempt RH because on YT internet or phone is probably not
> shayyach]
> 
> So maqqom magiim is really now the entire world including our Golah

Ein hachi nami; when kiddush hachodesh al pi har'iyah will be renewed,
YT Sheni will probably disappear, except for RH.  And there won't be
any shluchim, just a tweet, which will automatically update everyone's
calendar.


> So - except for RH -
> Since the gzeira-taqqana is no longer applicable
> Therefore why observe 2 days of YT nowadays in the golah?

I don't understand the question.  What has that got to do with now,
when we don't have KhChAPhR?  We don't keep YT Sheni now because of
a safek, we keep it because "shalchu mitam" -- the Sanhedrin told us
to keep it.  It's a halacha d'rabbanan, just like chicken and milk.
What difference can it possibly make how far the news could spread,
were there any news *to* spread?  If you're in a place where the
shluchim didn't reach back when there were shluchim, and therefore
"minhag avotechem" was to keep two days, then the Sanhedrin ordered
that you keep two days; whether a 2nd day will be kept there in the
3rd BHMK times is irrelevant.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Micha Berger wrote:

> I suggested here a number of years ago that the essence of Yom Tov
> sheini shel galiyos was a reminder that qiddush hachodesh ought to be
> al pi re'iyah. Therefore, even with a standardized calendar, we have a
> din derabbanan to preserve the minhag avos established when the calendar
> was in its ideal (if logistically more complex) state.
> 
> After all, at the time it went from pragmatically necessary minhag avos
> to being a taqanah, a fixed calendar was in use (if not exactly the same
> as our formula) and there was no need for communication.

You're forgetting the explicit reason that the letter "mitam" gave for
the takanah: we might make a mistake in the cheshbon, so since we
already have a minhag of keeping two days, we should continue it.  In
EY they are just as likely to make a mistake, but the Sanhedrin wasn't
prepared to start a new minhag just for that contingency.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

I heard a pshat about this once, that Moshe, as a member of Bnei Yisrael,
really deserved to be excluded from going into Israel after the Egel
Hazahav, however due to the fact that he hadn't done anything deserving of
punishment, the punishment on the masses didn't fall on him.
Once he messed up, Hashem applied the same punishment to him.

This means that if BY hadn't messeed up with the golden calf, Moshe's
punishment would have been something entirely different.

Another possibility is that Moshe's sin was saying "Mamrim Heyitem" and
getting upset at BY. If not for their behavior warranting this outburst from
Moshe, he wouldn't have been punished - eventhough Hashem expected more of
Moshe and to not let the anger show.

Kol Tuv,
~Liron

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Harvey Benton <harveyben...@yahoo.com>wrote:

>  When Moshe hit the rock twice, Hashem told him explicitly that he would
> not enter eretz yisrael because he failed to Glorify Hashem through his
> actions.
>
> However, later on, in Devarim, Moshe blames Bnei Yisrael for Moshe's not
> going into Eretz Yisrael.   Why the change in explanation???
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>
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Harvey Benton wrote:
> When Moshe hit the rock twice, Hashem told him explicitly that he would 
> not enter eretz yisrael because he failed to Glorify Hashem through his 
> actions.
> 
> However, later on, in Devarim, Moshe blames Bnei Yisrael for Moshe's not 
> going into Eretz Yisrael.   Why the change in explanation???

"Terivehu al mei Merivah".  The whole rock episode was just an excuse.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Gershon Dubin wrote:

> More than that.  If the masu'os were stopped mishekilkelu hatzedukim,
> why would phone/fax/email/IM be less subject to ziyuf?

Passwords.  If the tweet comes from @Sanhedrin, then it was sent by
someone with access to that account.  And of course if the kiddush
hachodesh took place during the week it would surely be recorded and
put up on www.sanhedrin.gov, where we could all see it and recognise
the people, and know it was genuine.   Forging that would be much
harder than climbing a mountain and setting fire to a pile of wood
that's already there.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

>
> RRW: Given today's comunications the entire world is notifiable virtually
> instantly. [Exempt RH because on YT internet or phone is probably not
> shayyach]


In ancient times, one could notify those at a distance quite quickly by
lighting fires on hilltops. However, this system was subverted by "hackers"
who lit decoy fires.

I don't know if modern communications are quite as foolproof and reliable as
we think they are. We may feel that distances have contracted remarkably
over the past century, but they still exist and unfortunately a natural or
manmade disaster or even a massive technical glitch or computer virus could
reinstate them very quickly.

I'm sure many on this list recall the several-days-long blackout about 6-7
years ago in the eastern US and in Ontario. I remember suddenly discovering
that six flights is a long way up to my apartment, that meat and dairy
products spoil if left out for a day or two, that it gets really dark at
night, and other basic truths about the world that we have masked but not
abolished. The internet and phones haven't made the world smaller; they've
only made it FEEL smaller and that's not as reliable as it seems.

- Ilana
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Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 04:18:38PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : That can't be so, because RYBZ's beis din was in Yavneh.
>
> Well, it was in both. 40 of his 60 years were before the churban, and
> we know from how he was snuck out that by the time of the churban, he
> was famous enough for centurians to respect his sanctity. It's quite
> possible that the taqanah of shofar was before "tein li Yavneh".
>   
But didn't the Sanhedrin leave Lishkas HaGazis 40 years before hurban 
habayis (Shabbos 15a)?

David Riceman

Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
> However, your conclusion, that "there is no practical way in halacha to
> run a large firm", doesn't follow.  It is certainly possible to
> establish contractual liability of the owner for his worker's
> misconduct.  Of course, the arrangements would have to be carefully
> constructed by an expert in Hoshen Mishpat to avoid problems of
> asmachta and possibly other concerns (just as a legal contract should
> be reviewed / crafted by a legal expert), but I see no reason why this
> should be impossible in principle.
>   
I agree that it may be possible, and that I expressed my objection 
imprecisely, when I wrote "So the major kashrus agencies, with dozens of 
employees we don't know personally, can run only in a non-halachic legal 
system".  I hope the following is better phrased:

The equivalent of modern large corporations, with hundreds of anonymous 
employees, existed during the Roman Empire.  I have no doubt that the 
Tannaim and those of the Amaraim who lived in Eretz Yisrael were 
familiar with such corporations.  Yet nowhere did Hazal construct the 
contract you postulate.  I conclude that this is because Hazal 
disapproved of such arrangements.

It may be necessary for a contemporary businesman to use such 
arrangements in order to compete with firms owned by non-Jews.  I can 
imagine no such reason for kashrus agencies to do so, when there is a 
viable alternative described by the Aruch HaShulhan, as we previously 
discussed.  Indeed, I deduce from the subjunctives in your post that, as 
far as you know, kashrus agencies have not composed such contracts.

In order for the kashrus agencies to run in the way they do, they are 
adopting methods of which Hazal seem to have disapproved.

David Riceman

<<and another question I've been wondering about, will all of Iraq be  part
of E'Y -- will the Euphrates be the eastern border of E'Y?  and how  far a
drive would it be from Baghdad to Yerushalayim, if there were a modern
highway between the two cities?>>

I dont think Baghdad is included even in the extended borders of EY.
I understand that Euphrates means the upper portion near Syria
see a picture of the Euphrates at

http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/bible-map-of-euphrates-river-and
-middle-east.gif

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 02:32:47PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: In hilchot teshuva the Rambam defines Tzaddik, Rasha and Benoni in simple
: arithmetic terms, more, less or equal mitzvot to averot (suitably weighted
: but that doesnt affect our analysis)...

This is problematic to understand in and of itself, since the Rambam in
the Moreh tells us that mitzvos "only" exist to provide opportunities
for yedi'ah. If so, then how can someone who does more total mitzvos but
never gets that yedi'ah be more of a tzadiq than someone who koneh olamo
besha'ah achas -- despite being further from nevu'ah, leihanos miziv
hashechinah (which according to the Rambam does NOT have a capitalized
"S") and olam haba?

The Moreh is akin to RET's citation of R' Hutner:
: R. Hutner answers that what counts is not the (weighted) arithmetic
: comparison but rather ones entire personality and outlook...

with the obvious caveat that the Rambam holds that personality and
outlook are a consequence and measure of yedi'ah, and not themselves
the ikkar.

: Our rabbi tried to explain that what Rambam means is that one must
: change ones personality traits as R. Hutner says. However, to do that
: one starts one mizvah at a time. It cannot be changed entirely overnight.

I see this exactly as R' Hutner's position. Personality and outlook
determine how one changes more than how one is. Think REED and nequdas
habechirah.

I think one is forced to a non-naive read of the Rambam even before
reaching RET's question. Which, to remind the olam, was:
:                                       That implies that it is highly
: improbable to be a benoni and further one can change ones status several
: times a day.
: A further problem is that for the 10 days of repentance Rambam stresses
: teshuva and it is not clear what the connection is to the previous
: arithmetic calculation.

I think his "further problem" will evaporate once one finds the kasuv
hashelishi to my shenei kesuvim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

Or think about how easy it would be to send out incorrect messages, get an email rumor started, make a false web site, etc.

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ilana Sober Elzufon 
  In ancient times, one could notify those at a distance quite quickly by
  lighting fires on hilltops. However, this system was subverted by
  "hackers" who lit decoy fires.

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On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:

>  Or think about how easy it would be to send out incorrect messages, get
> an email rumor started, make a false web* *site, etc.
>
> Ben
>


   - There is no foolproof system
   - The cheshash is 1% of the concern for dishonest witnesses etc. as
   documented in the Talmud itself.
   - It could be broadcast on satelite TV etc.
   - Phone sqauds could be set up
   - Passsword protected websites

I'm not against YT Sheini. The idea that we have always done it that way
doesn't cut it when the circumstances have radically changed

The SA said without orchim in shuls, better NOT TO say Qiddush even though
Ran says to say it even w/o orchim. Most shtiebels follow this change!

This is not about Reform, this about investigation and svara.
If you want to say let's KEEP YT Sheini - Davka  lehotzi mileiv hareformers
Fine! so it is now a taqqama to discredit Reform.  That has some logic to
it.



--


RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nishma-Minhag/
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The question of YT Sheni is simply one of many that is going to have to be
decided upon when the BM is rebuilt. Is everyone outside of the Miqdash
going to give up shaking the lulav after YT? If there was a BM now, then
would no one shake a lulav this year except for those on the BM? I have no
idea what is going to happen. Maybe the Sanhedrin will decide to keep the
galut rules in place, thinking that the change would cause problems which
are simply too serious (irrespective of Reform Jewry).

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Richard Wolpoe 
  Passsword protected websites 
  I'm not against YT Sheini. The idea that we have always done it that way doesn't cut it when the circumstances have radically changed

  The SA said without orchim in shuls, better NOT TO say Qiddush even though Ran says to say it even w/o orchim. Most shtiebels follow this change!  
   
  This is not about Reform, this about investigation and svara.
  If you want to say let's KEEP YT Sheini - Davka  lehotzi mileiv hareformers  Fine! so it is now a taqqama to discredit Reform.  That has some logic to it.
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> I suggested that the essence of Yom Tov sheini shel galiyos was a
> reminder that qiddush hachodesh ought to be
> al pi re'iyah. Therefore, even with a standardized calendar, we have a
> din derabbanan to preserve the minhag avos established when the calendar
> was in its ideal (if logistically more complex) state.
...
> -Micha

Permit me clarify:

AIUI Micha has given a valid teirutz to the following question
"Given a fixed calendar Why bother with YT sheini?"

But WADR I think my question is new and different

I am saying that if qiddush hachodesh were al pi reiya tomorrow morning,
every YT - except RH itself - would revert to a single day. Why? The new
Beth Din would notify the entire world - password protected if need be -
within seconds.

So as it stands NOW, Qiddush al pi reiya would drop YT sheini universally
- except RH.

So kal vachomer with a fixed calendar this need is obsolete - except RH.

[NB: RH would not necessarily afford time to notify the planet before
the onset of YT with a Qiddush al pi reiya]

For any other qiddush Hachodesh, we are virtually on the very borders
of EY - virtually across the street today. YT sheini is apparently
obsolete not because of the fixed calendar, but because of instantaneous
communication.

Disclaimer: I am not trying to say YT Sheini IS obsolete; rather rhat
we would imho need a better rationale to explain the ongoing Hiyyuv

Zev Sero:
I don't understand the question.  What has that got to do with now,
when we don't have KhChAPhR?  We don't keep YT Sheni now because of
a safek, we keep it because "shalchu mitam" -- the Sanhedrin told us
to keep it.  It's a halacha d'rabbanan, just like chicken and milk.
What difference can it possibly make how far the news could spread,
were there any news *to* spread?  If you're in a place where the
shluchim didn't reach back when there were shluchim, and therefore
"minhag avotechem" was to keep two days, then the Sanhedrin ordered
that you keep two days; whether a 2nd day will be kept there in the
3rd BHMK times is irrelevant.

"What difference can it possibly make how far the news could spread,
were there any news *to* spread?"

All the difference in the world! Literally! Our minhag avos is highly
suspect considering that we don't live in Baghdad or Iraq! Having moved,
the whole idea of living in a maqqom that shluchim were not magia
is suspect.

Now granted - It could be that the minhag avos is the sole reason for
continuing this observance - but I don't think it is a slam dunk and
this answer needs more work. The Sanhedrin that issued that answer was
dealing with a far different realia - and it is reasonable to see that
the inability of shluchim to reach certain places was axiomatic to the
Taqqana- Gzeira

Shana Tova
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 12:47:18AM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: Permit me clarify:
: AIUI Micha has given a valid teirutz to the following question
: "Given a fixed calendar Why bother with YT sheini?"

: But WADR I think my question is new and different

: I am saying that if qiddush hachodesh were al pi reiya tomorrow morning,
...

I think it's my point that needds clarification.

I was taught as a child that YTSSG was about knowing what to do when
we go back to al pi re'iyah. I heard echos of that in RRW's post,
which is why he is asking about the reason for YTSSG now that we know
chu"l won't need a yom tov sheini even if we go back to al pi re'iyah.

The real answer to his question is that it's a derabbanan, and therefore
until you gather another Sanhedrin gadol mimenu bechokhmah uveminyan,
that's the law. I am not sure, but I /think/ that's what RSZ is saying;
if I misunderstood, I ask Zev to clarify.

However, what I answered was to turn the taqanah around. Rather than
have it point to the future, it's a commemoration of the al pi re'iyah
past. Therefore, changes in what we project would happen in bayis
shelishi are irrelevent.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)


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