Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 182

Wed, 09 Sep 2009

• 1. Re: 100 B'rochos (Akiva Blum)
• 2. Re: Shehechiyanu (T6...@aol.com)
• 3. Fw: Adam Ha'rishon (Ben Waxman)
• 4. Re: Shehechiyanu (Zev Sero)
• 5. who is to blame??; re:moshe rabeinu and Eretz Yisrael???? (Harvey Benton)
• 6. the nature, definitions, and obligations of a brit in the Torah... (Harvey Benton)
• 7. Yoma Arichta - RH in EY (Marty Bluke)
• 8. YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Acharonim (and Mussar) as TT, Redux (kennethgmil...@juno.com)

 


  _____  

From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org]
On Behalf Of Cantor Wolberg

I came across the following regarding the halacha to recite meah brochos daily: 
"If one makes a mistake that requires a repeat of the sh'mone esrei (e.g. he
forgot ya'ale v'yavo on Rosh Chodesh) it is possible that both the b'rochos from
the first and second
sh'mone es'rei(s) count."

IMHO this doesn't sound reasonable or logical [and it's obviously not a chok
:-)]. It's like saying you're being rewarded and given credit for a mistake.
Anybody disagree?

ri 

 
 
It seems very logical to me. The reason why Shmone esrei is being repeated is to
fill in the missing ya'ale veyovo, not because they was anything wrong with the
other brochos. So they were all good.
This is actually a machlokes rishonim how to view the other brochos, so the
statement "it is possible" is correct.
 
Akiva

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In Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 178 dated 9/1/2009 R'  Zev Sero  
_zev@sero.name_ (mailto:z...@sero.name)  wrote:


>> Another point:  Grapes of kerem reva'i that are grown  within a day's
journey of Yerushalayim can't be redeemed for money, and must  be
physically transported there, "in order to decorate the markets of
Y'm  with fruit".  <<

 
 
 
>>>>>>
What will be the rule when the Third (or Eighth, according to a  different 
recent thread) BHM'K is built, and all of Eretz Yisrael is an easy  day's 
drive to Y-m?  No grapes anywhere can be redeemed for money, they  will /all/ 
have to be brought to Yerushalayim?
 
and another question I've been wondering about, will all of Iraq be  part 
of E'Y -- will the Euphrates be the eastern border of E'Y?  and how  far a 
drive would it be from Baghdad to Yerushalayim, if there were a modern  
highway between the two cities?
 
 
 
--Toby  Katz
==========



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Adam was passive in the entire story. He didn't question Khava, he simply
ate what was put in front of him (much like any man). Khava argued with the
snake, Adam didn't argue with Khava. Further when God asked Adam why he ate
the apple (or whatever it was), he simply said "She gave it to me". He
couldn't even take responsibility for what he did. So I would say that he
wasn't enticed by the snake at all, he was simply not a player in this
story. 

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cantor Wolberg 



  It is brought down that the names of the creations of Hashem well define
  them. This was Adam Ha'rishon's incredible power. He understood the
  purpose of every creature, its function and uniqueness. Thus, he was able
  to give them names and was blessed with an unparalleled ability to
  understand everything there is to know about every creature.	


  Therefore I ask how it was possible for Adam Ha'rishon to have been enticed by the nachash through Chava? 
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T6...@aol.com wrote:  
> In Avodah R'  Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

>> Another point:  Grapes of kerem reva'i that are grown within a day's
>> journey of Yerushalayim can't be redeemed for money, and must be
>> physically transported there, "in order to decorate the markets of
>> Y'm with fruit". 

> What will be the rule when the Third (or Eighth, according to a 
> different recent thread) BHM'K is built, and all of Eretz Yisrael is an 
> easy day's drive to Y-m?  No grapes anywhere can be redeemed for money, 
> they will /all/ have to be brought to Yerushalayim?

Maybe.  This is a takana d'rabbanan, after all, so it will be up to
the rabbanan of that time to determine whether it's still needed, and
if so what its parameters should be.  Maybe they will decide that the
markets will have sufficient fruit if the perimeter is set at only
half a day's journey, or an hour's.

OTOH the reason the Torah allows kerem reva'i to be redeemed in the
first place is because of the difficulty of shlepping it from the
distant reaches of EY.  Now that transport is easy, that reason no
longer applies.  Since we don't pasken like R Shimon, the Torah's
law remains in force even if the reason doesn't; but perhaps the
rabbanan will see fit to extend this old takanah, and abolish pidyon
kerem reva'i altogether.  Perhaps they'll even do the same to neta
reva'i and maaser sheni, for the same reason.



> and another question I've been wondering about, will all of Iraq be
> part of E'Y -- will the Euphrates be the eastern border of E'Y?

The Biblical borders of EY touch the *upper* Euphrates, up in Syria.
They don't come anywhere near Iraq.   But your question is still
applicable, because "EY will spread to all the lands".  So America
may also be EY.   Of course at the same time "Y'm will spread until
the gates of Damascus", which reduces the distance to be travelled.


> And how far a drive would it be from Baghdad to Yerushalayim, if
> there were a modern highway between the two cities?

As the (very thirsty) crow flies, the distance is about 875 km, or
about 545 miles, as near as I can tell from measuring on a map.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

When Moshe hit the rock twice, Hashem told him explicitly that he would not enter eretz yisrael because he failed to Glorify Hashem through his actions.

However, later on, in Devarim, Moshe blames Bnei Yisrael for Moshe's not going into Eretz Yisrael.?? Why the change in explanation???
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Devarim 5:2; Hashem made/forged a Brit with Us. ?

(ArtScroll on this pasuk references the Brit made at Chorev;
?Exodus 19:4-8.) 

Questions:? 

1. What exactly defines a brit and its acceptance; passive,
forced or under any other circumstance?? 

2. ?Is a Brit a
unilateral, bi-lateral, or some other kind of arrangement?? Pinchas was also given a Brit, a Brit Shalom
(unilateral Brit I would define it, as a gift/reward???) There was also a Brit
ben Ha?Bitarim (bi-lateral?) made with Avraham; Did Avraham have a choice other
than to participate in the Brit ben HaBitarim?

3. On what grounds are we bound by a Brit (other than Hashem
telling us that we are)? 

4. Why is an 8-day old infant bound into a covenant (a Brit
made by the parents on to the child) that he has no knowledge of
(metaphysical/spiritual aspects aside). [Again, like Avraham, does the child
have any choice whether or not he wants to be involved in the Brit?]

5.? What happens if we
don?t keep our end of a Brit? Will Hashem ACTIVELY destroy us (as mentioned in
Devarim and other places) or will it be just a PASSIVE ?letting go of the flock (machmas keri) to the
70 nations around us (which by their natures will destroy us???) ?

6. If a Brit is Bi-Lateral, does Hahsem do what He asks of
us?? Namely, to go against our natures
and act in a certain way?? This is how I interpret
the pasuk in Dvarim (5:2) when it says ?Hashem Elokeinu karat imanu brit
bachorev?. That Hashem ?forged? a brit with us; implying he has to actively do
something as well.? HB

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R' Wolpoe asked:
<What is the earliest source for observing two days of RH even in EY?

The Baal Hamaor in Beitzah (6a) as well as the Rosh there,  quotes
that R' Nissim Gaon asked R' Hai Gaon whether 1 or 2 days should be
kept in EY. R' Hai answered 1 day.

R' Zevin in Moadim B'Halacha has a long piece where he explains that
there were 4 periods regarding RH (ayen sham).

I don't think that there is an earlier source for this, the machlokes
whether to keep 1 or 2 days is based on the following.

They made a takana ((Mishna RH 30a) that they would not accept eidim
after mincha and in that situation they would finish out the day as
Yom Tov (even though it was for sure not going to be Yom Tov that
day). That takana continued in some form even after the Curban Habayis
(see Beitzah 5b machlokes Rashi and Tosafos). Based on this takana,
the Gemara says that the 2 days of RH are 1 kedusha.

If you lived in Yerushalayim when teh Beis Hamikdash was still
standing if teh edim came on the first day RH was only 1 day. The same
applied to the period after the churban when they were still mekadesh
al pi har'iya. People who lived in teh Beis Havaad where they were
mekadesh the chodesh only had to keep 1 day if the edim came on the
first day.

Based on this the Baal Hamaor makes the following argument (which
seems to be what the Geonim held). He says that since kiddush
hachodesh could have been done anywhere in EY, all of EY has the
status of Beis Havaad and therefore never had a minhag of keeping 2
days and therefore only 1 day is observed.

Rn TK
> and [nowadays] all of Eretz Yisrael is an easy day's drive to Y-m?? ?

In the good old days there were 2 classes of YT observance

YT Rishon only - within the perimeter of "maqom shemaggim sham hashluchim"
And outisde that perimeter where 2 days were observed

Given today's comunications the entire world is notifiable virtually
instantly. [Exempt RH because on YT internet or phone is probably not
shayyach]

So maqqom magiim is really now the entire world including our Golah

So - except for RH -
Since the gzeira-taqqana is no longer applicable
Therefore why observe 2 days of YT nowadays in the golah?
?
Shana Tova
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Sep 09, 2009 at 04:24:26PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: 
: Given today's comunications the entire world is notifiable virtually
: instantly. [Exempt RH because on YT internet or phone is probably not
: shayyach]
...
: Therefore why observe 2 days of YT nowadays in the golah?

I suggested here a number of years ago that the essence of Yom Tov
sheini shel galiyos was a reminder that qiddush hachodesh ought to be
al pi re'iyah. Therefore, even with a standardized calendar, we have a
din derabbanan to preserve the minhag avos established when the calendar
was in its ideal (if logistically more complex) state.

After all, at the time it went from pragmatically necessary minhag avos
to being a taqanah, a fixed calendar was in use (if not exactly the same
as our formula) and there was no need for communication.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

R' Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer asked:

> I would assume that it means engaging in the study of either
> Torah she'b'Ksav or Torah she'b'al Peh. TSBK is easy = Tanach.
> TSBAP is more tricky. I assume it definitely includes
> everything up to "Rav Ashi v'Ravina sof Horo'oh" but I do not
> know how it extends betond that.
>
> [insert ten years here]
>
> My question remains, however, if one were to learn an Acharon
> of some sort that had no pesukim and/or ma'amarei Chazal,
> would it in and of itself somehow be considered a "Cheftza
> shel Torah" or not. Any mare mekomos or ra'ayos anyone?

I have no mareh mekomos, but here's my evidence:

Why would anyone make a demarcation, that at some point in history, new
ideas would cease being a "cheftza shel Torah"? It sounds quite arbitrary
to me that a timeline should make that distinction.

Let's bring the proposed definition to its logical conclusion: Suppose one
were to learn an Acharon of some sort that DID mention both some pesukim
and also some ma'amarei Chazal, and also contained some explanations of
them. Would we say that ONLY the pesukim and ma'amarei Chazal count as
"cheftza shel Torah", but not the explanations? Or would we say that the
whole thing counts as "cheftza shel Torah"? It seems ludicrous to me to
think that a person might spend all day learning Mishne Brurah or Mesilas
Yesharim, and his only Talmud Torah for that time is when he happened to
encounter a pasuk or maamar Chazal.

Here's a second "proof":

As I wrote, a timeline cannot arbitrarily decide what's Torah and what's
not. On the other hand, as RYGB wrote, the definition of TSBK is easy -
either something got written or it didn't. It's not that the timeline is
making an artificial distinction. Rather, TSBK is defined by what got
written and what did not get written.

Let's apply the same idea to TSBAP. As long as it is part of the chain from
teacher to student (and "teacher" can be defined very loosely here, as in
"mikol m'lamdai hiskalti"), it is "B'al Peh", and remains legitimate Torah,
with no time limit (though I suppose there is a *quality* limit, in that
anything sheker is no longer Torah).

This is not to say that everything that a teacher says is automatically a
"cheftza shel Torah". It has to be in the context of explaining something
which is already a cheftza shel Torah. For more info on this, check out
previous discussions about learning mathematics l'shem Hilchos Eruvin
(Torah) or learning mathematics lishma (not Torah), or learning astronomy
l'shem Kiddush Hachodesh (Torah) or learning astronomy lishma (not Torah).
Similarly, Mussar (as mentioned in the subject line of this thread) can be
l'shem being a better Eved HaShem (Torah) or l'shem Making Friends And
Influencing People (not Torah).

Akiva Miller

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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 182
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