Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 181

Tue, 08 Sep 2009

• 1. YT Sheini Vs. YT Rishon (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Re: YT Sheini Vs. YT Rishon (Allan Engel)
• 3. Re: inconceivable-- Ben Sorer uMoreh (Stuart Feldhamer)
• 4. Re: Tiqun Olam (Michael Makovi)
• 5. Yoma Arichta - RH in EY (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 6. 100 B'rochos (Cantor Wolberg)
• 7. lo plog (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Acharonim (and Mussar) as TT, Redux (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 9. Re: Acharonim (and Mussar) as TT, Redux (Harry Maryles)
• 10. Re: Acharonim (and Mussar) as TT, Redux (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 11. Re: 100 B'rochos (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Re: 100 B'rochos (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Boruch She'amar (Arie Folger)
• 14. standardization of the parshios... (Harvey Benton)
• 15. Re: standardization of the parshios... (Micha Berger)

R' Wolpoe asked:
<Anyone have more resources re: when YT sheini behaves diffrently than
YT Rishon?

Eating in the succah in the rain on the second night of succos. Do you
need to wait like the first night or not? I believe that this is a
machlokes acharonim.

I believe that in the Shiurim of RYBS on Succah there is an
explanation of the machlokes the Rambam and teh Rosh regarding the Yom
Tov sheni and pesulim.

Sefardi poskim hold that the first day of aveilus is Mide'oraiso, so if a
levayo is held on Yom Tov Sheni, the mourning of the aveilim would override
the Yom Tov which is Miderabonnon.


R' Wolpoe asked:
> <Anyone have more resources re: when YT sheini behaves diffrently than
> YT Rishon?
>
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Was it first day or second day YT?

 

Stuart

 

From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org
[mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of T6...@aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 2:50 AM
To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org; rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Avodah] inconceivable-- Ben Sorer uMoreh

 

 

 

In Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 169 dated 8/17/2009
rabbirichwol...@gmail.com writes:


>> This actually happened to a chaver of mine "Avi"

It's YT in Wash Heights.

A Black Man approaches Avi

Please!  I need money to feed my baby milk!

Avi silently procrasinates

BM follows up: I'm Jewish from Israel and repeats his request in Modern
Hebrew!

What would YOU do?
What does the halachah say?

(Note: handing him money is probably only a direct violation of
muktze. Mesayei'a lidvar aveira?) <<

 

  _____  

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A few months ago, in this present thread, I cited and discussed Howard
I. Levine's "Enduring and Transitory Elements in the Philosophy of
Samson Raphael Hirsch" (Spring 1963).

Inter alia, Levine says, "In line with this approach, Hirsch reverses
the traditional view of the highest goal of religious life: holiness.
We are accustomed to viewing holiness, the experience of the numinous,
as the very acme of religion. For Hirsch, however, holiness is but a
means of preparing us for the end purpose which is the life of service
to mankind. ... Rabbi Moses Chaim Luzzato provides a sharp antithesis
to the Hirschian view. ..."

The following is an excerpt from an essay I am writing on this
subject, comparing Rav Hirsch to the Kuzari on the subject of morality
and tiqun olam. I am writing another essay on the Meiri which covers
almost exactly the same ground as what I'm about to write. (YCT's
Meorot told me that as soon as I include the de rigour citations of
Jacob Katz, they would like to publish my essay on the Meiri.)

<<Excerpt begins>>

But we might wish to note that if ?we are accustomed to viewing
holiness, the experience of the numinous, as the very acme of
religion?, then we should realize that not only Rav Hirsch, but
further the Prophetic mind in general will disagree with the Mesilat
Yesharim. In Rabbi Dr. J. H. Hertz's Early and Late (Soncino Press,
1943), we read, (?A Vindication of Religion?, p. 197),

<<Quote>>
An essential element in that [religious] vision is God's holiness. And
the Holy God can only be sanctified through righteousness, Isaiah has
for all time declared. That is, moral conduct is the beginning and end
of religion, and men and nations are to be judged purely by their
moral life. 'The righteous of all nations are heirs of immorality', is
an unchallenged dogma of the Synagogue.
<<End quote>>

One should not miss the far-reaching statements that Hertz has just
made. ?We are accustomed to viewing holiness, the experience of the
numinous, as the very acme of religion? (Levine), for ?an essential
element in that [religious] vision is God's holiness? (Hertz). But if
so, if God's holiness is really the essential element and acme of
religion, then, according to Isaiah, ?the Holy God can only be
sanctified [ - made holy - ] through righteousness?. And therefore,
?moral conduct is the beginning and end of religion? (Hertz).
Moreover, ?men and nations are to be judged purely by their moral
life?. This is an amazing statement. According to Rabbi Dr. Isidore
Epstein (Judaism: A Historical Presentation. Great Britain: Penguin
Books, 1959 and numerous reprintings thereafter. p. 14),

<<Quote>>
Belief in the one and only God was not demanded [of the non-Jew],
provided there is no idolatry, which Judaism condemns not so much
because it is false religion, but because it is false morality; the
Son of Noah is not charged the confess the one and only God of the son
of Israel. He may be a dualist or a trinitarian, as he wishes. This
conception of the Noah laws reveals the real significance of the
theocratic constitution of Israel: it rested not on the unity of the
state and religion but on the unity of the state and morality.
<<End quote>>

Apparently, the first Noachide command would not mandate strict
monotheism of the Jewish sort, but rather, would prohibit gross
heathenistic worship. In like wise, Hertz says (The Pentateuch, p.
759, on Deuteronomy 4:19),

<<Quote>>
[I]dolatry was for them [viz. the Jews] an unpardonable offense; and
everything that might seduce them from that Divine Revelation was to
be ruthlessly destroyed. Hence the amazing tolerance shown by Judaism
of all ages towards the followers of all other cults, so long as these
were not steeped in immorality and crime. [Emphasis in original.]
<<End quote>>

Similarly, Hertz says (ibid., p. 833, on Deuteronomy 20:10-18),

<<Quote>>
It is seen that the Canaanites were put under the ban, not for false
belief, but for vile action; because of the savage cruelty and foul
immorality of their gruesome cults.
<<End quote>>

(These passages are also found, with some minor but noticeable
variations, in Rabbi Hertz's Sermons, Addresses, and Studies, London:
Soncino, 1938. Vol 3. Pp. 215 and 219, under ?Religious Tolerance?;
and Affirmations of Judaism, London: Soncino, 1975. Pp. 183 and 186,
under ?Religious Tolerance?.)

This argument by Hertz and Epstein - that ?men and nations are to be
judged purely by their moral life? (Hertz), that there is an ?amazing
tolerance shown by Judaism of all ages towards the followers of all
other cults, so long as these were not steeped in immorality and
crime? (Hertz), that ?It is seen that the Canaanites were put under
the ban, not for false belief, but for vile action; because of the
savage cruelty and foul immorality of their gruesome cults? (Hertz),
that ?Judaism condemns [idolatry] not so much because it is false
religion, but because it is false morality? (Epstein) ? this argument
would parallel one by Rabbi Ahron Soloveichk, brought by Rabbi Dr.
David Berger (?Jews, Gentiles, and the Modern Egalitarian Ethos: Some
Tentative Thoughts?, in Formulating Responses in an Egalitarian Age,
ed. Marc Stern, Lanham, 2005, pp. 83-108.
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/Jews_Gentiles_and_E
galitarianism_2.pdf):

<<Quote>>
This position is spelled out more rigorously in his [Rabbi Ahron
Soloveichik's] novellae to Sefer ha-Madda. Here he maintains that the
discriminatory laws against non-Jews result only from their status as
evildoers (their shem rasha). Non-Jews who behave righteously by
following the six Noahide laws other than the prohibition against
avodah zarah are not considered evil as long as their theological
error was inherited, as the Talmud suggests about pagans in the
diaspora, from their parents and is thus considered inadvertent or
even a result of compulsion.
<<End quote>>

Elsewhere, Berger remarks (Alex Ozar, ?An Interview With Rabbi Dr.
David Berger?, YU Commentator,
h
ttp://media.www.yucommentator.com/media/storage/paper652/news/2007/12/17/Ko
lHamevaser/An.Interview.With.Rabbi.Dr.David.Berger-3144750.shtml,
issued December 17, 2007),

<<Quote>>
And this raises larger issues about whether in order to get into olam
haba a non-Jew has to get a hundred on his exam. Does he need a
perfect score on the sheva mitzvos in order to have a helek la-olam
haba? Now I suppose that a straightforward reading of most discussions
of this matter would be yes. You have to observe all of the sheva
mitzvos, not six out of seven. However, there is a teshuva of Rav
Yaakov Emden, and you get a similar impression from a piece by the
elder Rav Henkin, and this appears to be Rav Ahron Soloveichik?s
position, that indicates that the observance of the moral commandments
is sufficient and that mistakes with respect to the understanding of
God would not keep you out. Sinners, Jews and gentiles, are not
punished forever but rather achieve a restored state.
<<End quote>>

To summarize: if the essential element and acme of religion is God's
holiness (Levine), then God is made holy only through righteousness
(Hertz citing Isaiah), and all men are judged only by their moral
conduct (Hertz, Epstein, Soloveichik, Emden).

<<End excerpt from my essay>>

Michael Makovi

What is the earliest source for observing two days of RH even in EY?

My Mishnah Brurah has the following info

SA 601:2 even in EY one makes 2 days

Be'er Hagolah 3: Rif first pereq of Beitza, Rambam...

MB 3: ...even in the time of the Miqdash somedays they needed to make
2 days

Shaar haTziyyun 2:
Darchei Moshe 604 in the name of the Maharil.

Any evidence from Bavli, Yerushalmi or Tosefta? Any Gaonic sources?

Shana Tova
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

I came across the following regarding the halacha to recite meah  
brochos daily:
"If one makes a mistake that requires a repeat of the sh'mone esrei  
(e.g. he forgot ya'ale v'yavo on Rosh Chodesh) it is possible that  
both the b'rochos from the first and second
sh'mone es'rei(s) count."

IMHO this doesn't sound reasonable or logical [and it's obviously not  
a chok :-)]. It's like saying you're being rewarded and given credit  
for a mistake.
Anybody disagree?

ri


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The problem is that even for a posek it is hard to tell which is why there
is frequently a disagreement.
Leaves things too wishy-washy for my tastes.


>
> Therefore there cannot be a simple rule, an on/off or yes/no rule, for when
> Lo Plug does or does not apply, no simple algorithm that could be applied to
> every single X and Y.   This is why you need a posek and not a computer to
> answer halachic questions.
>
> --Toby Katz
> ==========



-- 
Eli Turkel

Way back in the previous century, I posted the following:

    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:03:38 -0600 (CST)
    From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbech...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
    Subject: Re: Just What is Talmud Torah Anway? 

    I would assume that it means engaging in the study of either Torah
    she'b'Ksav or Torah she'b'al Peh. TSBK is easy = Tanach. TSBAP
    is more tricky. I assume it definitely includes everything up to
    "Rav Ashi v'Ravina sof Horo'oh" but I do not know how it extends
    betond that. Nevertheless, the understanding of Talmudic texts and
    opinions inherent in the study of Rishonim and Acharonim is likely TT
    l'kol ha'dei'os, but what, indded, would the struggle to understand
    a passage in the Ktzos that did not relate to Rishonim and Acharonim
    constitute? I think it still fulfills the mitzva me'divrei kabbala of
    "V'higeisa ba yomam va'lyla", i.e., to occupy oneself with thoghts
    that relate to Torah.

Some discussion ensued, but never achieved any finality, so far as my
perusal of the archives just now discovered. Moreover, I seem not to
have come up with any source to back myself up at the time.

This came up in shiur in OS last week. I again asserted that, say,
Mussar bereft of pesukim and/or ma'amarei Chazal does not fall into the
category of TT, strictly speaking (but that as th DE that is kadma laTorah
it is of utmost importance nonetheless!). I was severely challenged on
that assertion.

I did find today that in Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Hil. TT 3:4 he writes
that only Mussar works that are based on Chazal are considered Torah,
not ones based on "Seichel Enoshi."

My question remains, however, if one were to learn an Acharon of some
sort that had no pesukim and/or ma'amarei Chazal, would it in and of
itself somehow be considered a "Cheftza shel Torah" or not. Any mare
mekomos or ra'ayos anyone?

KT,
YGB

No Mareh MeKomos. -?but I think that perhaps Svara can suffice.
?
Talmud Torah consists of all TSBK and TSBP (thru the Chasimas HaTalmud by
R' Ashi). Anyone who has in some way proven himslef to be knowledgeable in
Torah and is also Ehrlich and who helps us understand?either TSBK or
TSBP?better in all of its ramifications should in effect be considered
learning Torah. It therefore follows that this would include learning all
Rishonim and Achronim - including the Baalei Mussar. But there does not
have to be Pesukim or Maamre Chazal. It can be their own logical
deductions. 
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

--- On Tue, 9/8/09, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <ygbechho...@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <ygbechho...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Avodah] Acharonim (and Mussar) as TT, Redux
To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org, charles.brow...@gmail.com
Date: Tuesday, September 8, 2009, 9:54 AM



Way back in the previous century, I posted the following:

? ? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:03:38 -0600 (CST)
? ? From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbech...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
? ? Subject: Re: Just What is Talmud Torah Anway? 

? ? I would assume that it means engaging in the study of either Torah
? ? she'b'Ksav or Torah she'b'al Peh. TSBK is easy = Tanach. TSBAP
? ? is more tricky. I assume it definitely includes everything up to
? ? "Rav Ashi v'Ravina sof Horo'oh" but I do not know how it extends
? ? betond that. Nevertheless, the understanding of Talmudic texts and
? ? opinions inherent in the study of Rishonim and Acharonim is likely TT
? ? l'kol ha'dei'os, but what, indded, would the struggle to understand
? ? a passage in the Ktzos that did not relate to Rishonim and Acharonim
? ? constitute? I think it still fulfills the mitzva me'divrei kabbala of
? ? "V'higeisa ba yomam va'lyla", i.e., to occupy oneself with thoghts
? ? that relate to Torah.

Some discussion ensued, but never achieved any finality, so far as my
perusal of the archives just now discovered. Moreover, I seem not to
have come up with any source to back myself up at the time.

This came up in shiur in OS last week. I again asserted that, say,
Mussar bereft of pesukim and/or ma'amarei Chazal does not fall into the
category of TT, strictly speaking (but that as th DE that is kadma laTorah
it is of utmost importance nonetheless!). I was severely challenged on
that assertion.

I did find today that in Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Hil. TT 3:4 he writes
that only Mussar works that are based on Chazal are considered Torah,
not ones based on "Seichel Enoshi."

My question remains, however, if one were to learn an Acharon of some
sort that had no pesukim and/or ma'amarei Chazal, would it in and of
itself somehow be considered a "Cheftza shel Torah" or not. Any mare
mekomos or ra'ayos anyone?

KT,
YGB
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RYGB:
> I would assume that it means engaging in the study of either Torah
> she'b'Ksav or Torah she'b'al Peh.

When I was a kid in Yeshiva of Hartford, a young rabbi from EY visited
He claimed all the Torah that's been said and all that will be said is
all TSBP.
I'm not sure I understand how to eliminate any of it. Hafach ba.. Dechula
ba...
Aggados even give business advice!  How can we draw the line?

Shana Tova
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

You're being given credit for a mistake made in good faith, unknowingly. 

The 100 brachot isn't a job that you have to do, it isn't a work load. It
is a goal. If one says a bracha thinking that you are indeed praising
Hashem, that's good enough.

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cantor Wolberg 



  IMHO this doesn't sound reasonable or logical [and it's obviously not a chok :-)]. It's like saying you're being rewarded and given credit for a mistake.
  Anybody disagree?
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On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 09:21:33PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: You're being given credit for a mistake made in good faith, unknowingly. 

: The 100 brachot isn't a job that you have to do, it isn't a work
: load. It is a goal. If one says a bracha thinking that you are indeed
: praising Hashem, that's good enough.

Vehara'ayah, you /do/ have to say the Shemoneh Esrei in question over.
The actual chiyuv involved is /not/ fulfilled.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolb...@cox.net>wrote:
> *Hilchos Pesukei D'zimrah**
> *
> Why do we hold 2 tzitzis in front instead of all four?

This is according to the teachings of the Ari, who divides prayer up
until the 'amida into 4 parts, drawing up from the realm of
'Assiya,Yetzira, Beriya and 'Atzilut. Pessuqei deZimra corresponds to
Yetzira. Likewise, reliving ourselves and washing up upon arising
corresponds to 'Assiya, donning tzitzit to Yetzira, tefillin shel yad
to Beriya and tefillin shel rosh to 'Atzilut.

Hence, when entering 'Yetzira in speech, Lurianic kabbalists suggested
holding the action-symbol of that realm, the tzitzit.

The above practice is, AFAIK, unconnected to holding and kissing
tzitzit during the recitation of the Shema', which is a much older and
more controversial practice.

And while I have not seen any communities where tzitzit are generally
not held during the Shema', the same is not true of the practice of
holding them during Barukh She-Amar, which is practiced widely, but
not universally.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Complex Memories ? the Notion of ?? ????
* Judentum und westliche Gesellschaft im Einklang
* How did Psalm 30 Land in the Morning Service

rmb wrote:

The Sanhedrin never bothered normalizing a single order of parshios in
tefillin.
hb: do we know for a fact that there was no standard order by the end of
the sanhedrin's rule??? and/or that perhaps tghe schisms began afterwards,
eg. rabeinu tam, rashi, etgc. 
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On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 06:40:13PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: do we know for a fact that there was no standard order by the end of
: the sanhedrin's rule??? and/or that perhaps tghe schisms began afterwards,
: eg. rabeinu tam, rashi, etgc.

Because we have archeological evidence from the Hasmonian period. Qumran
too, but they weren't Pharasees, so I'm not sure how much their norms
illustrate about halakhah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


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