Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 104

Thu, 04 Jun 2009

• 1. further on temimos (Shlomo Pick)
• 2. Hilchos BINGO (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Hilchos BINGO (Saul Guberman)
• 4. Re: (Neviim & Possible Mistakes); Akeidah & Yizchak (hankman)
• 5. Re: (Neviim & Possible Mistakes); Akeidah & Yizchak (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 6. Re: Hilchos BINGO (Simon Montagu)
• 7. Re: Hilchos BINGO (Simon Montagu)
• 8. Re: Hilchos BINGO (Daniel Israel)
• 9. goy vs chiloni (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: (Neviim & Possible Mistakes); Akeidah & Yizchak (David Riceman)
• 11. Re: (Neviim & Possible Mistakes); Akeidah & Yizchak (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 12. Re: Hilchos BINGO (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: (Neviim & Possible Mistakes); Akeidah & Yizchak (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 14. Re: Hilchos BINGO (Rich, Joel)

Akiva wrote

?      all this is irrelavant to the topic. The only people who would want
to delay maariv on the second night of Shavuos are the people who are
worried about Temimos for the second night of Shavuos. And those people
would have been counting twice m'safek for the whole seven weeks. And AFAIK
there aren't any such people.

true for temimos, but according to the Natziv the real reason for delaying
maariv on Shavuot is because the verse states beEtzem hayom hazeh which
negates tosefet yom tov for Shavuot and thus there would be no difference
between the two days in the Diaspora.

 

On motzei Shabbat I was thinking that when in a year when shavuos comes out
on motzei shabbos with the Yaknahaz, etc., we never see a campaign to daven
arvit earlier then zeit hakochavim in order to rush to Kiddush exactly at
zeit for those people who have trouble eating so late.	Of course if you
want to eat hot fleishigs that nite, it may take a while to clean the
dishes from Shabbat and heat up the food, but if you settle for milchigs,
you can do well right at zeit with Kiddush. Now davening ma'arive earlier
on shabbos is found in the same gemorrah in brachot where it says that rav
davened shabbos ma'ariv earlier on Friday, so on the next page discussing
this, it says the same can be done on Saturday for that nite's arvit
(berachot 27b) and this is mandated by rambam tefilah 3:7 SA, OH, 293:3.
although the mb there says it should not be done because of a cheshash of
melacha, still I'm sure that with all the za'ar that has been going around
the weeks before shavu'ot, and th
 e fact that most melachot are still assur because of yom tov, and one can
 time an earlier ma'ariv perhaps so that there would be not chashash for
 that, and then one can argue that the rishonim like the rambam was not
 choshesh for what the acharonim feared, so that we should return to the
 minhag of the simple gemorrah and rishonim, and let the magen avraham and
 mb reflect minhag lita only.

I hope you will excuse some of the irony here but there some of my
post-shavuot reflections ? especially after seeing 150-200 elderly, middle
aged, young men, and children have stayed up all nite learning in all types
of frameworks including avot ubanim, and then to daven vatikin.  In fact
the regular 7:30 minyan (we are makpid on magen avraham kriyat shma) had no
cohen the next morning.

A healthy summer to you all.

Shlomo Pick
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Someone posted on Areivim a link to suggestions put together by R Saul
Zucker and R ary Friedman for running a more affordable school. In the
list of small things that could be done immediately (among suggestions
that would be of more substantial help) was BINGO night.

To which R Chanoch Bloom asked on Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 9:02am EDT:
: Isn't gambling (i.e. Bingo) assur according to the Maran Beit Yosef?

Moreso than the commmonplace Chinese Auction? Or buying a lottery
ticket? Or dreidl of kvitlach paid for money?

In any case, I thought the problem with a mesacheiq bequbios was only
WRT people who live of the winnings, not just the occasional entertainment.
So, I would like to see the BY, if you know of the precise mar'eh maqom.

RMF (IM EH 3:40, OC 4:35) does not forbid BINGO, and permits it if the
school needs funds. He does consider it inappropriate, and not permissable
to be held at the actual maqom Torah / tefillah, but not assur.

The Chinese Auction raises more money, although it can't be done as
frequently -- probably would raise less overall, I would guess. However,
from an AYH perspective, it creates an atmosphere that runs counter
to developing histapkus. (I get ads for those things and they generate
qinah in me...)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 13:57, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> Someone posted on Areivim a link to suggestions put together by R Saul
> Zucker and R ary Friedman for running a more affordable school. In the
> list of small things that could be done immediately (among suggestions
> that would be of more substantial help) was BINGO night.
>
> To which R Chanoch Bloom asked on Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 9:02am EDT:
> : Isn't gambling (i.e. Bingo) assur according to the Maran Beit Yosef?
>
> Moreso than the commmonplace Chinese Auction? Or buying a lottery
> ticket? Or dreidl of kvitlach paid for money?
>
SNIP

> RMF (IM EH 3:40, OC 4:35) does not forbid BINGO, and permits it if the
> school needs funds. He does consider it inappropriate, and not permissable
> to be held at the actual maqom Torah / tefillah, but not assur.
>

I think that both of you are missing part of the mitzuis here.  Chinese
auctions that are run by Jewish organizations are a once a year fund raiser
aimed at the general Jewish population of the area.  Bingo is a nightly or
weekly activity that is aimed at the general population.  It attracts few
Jews & no Torah observant Jews.  Have you ever been to a Bingo hall?  I
volunteered as a teenager a few times for my shul.  Really not a great
experience; although now that you can not smoke indoors in public, it may be
a little better.    There are real moral issues with running BINGO.
Genrally these are not people with large amounts of disposable income.

Saul
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CM wrote:
[I]t has been my understanding (Although I can not cite a specific mekor)
that the understanding by a Novi of his Nevuha is in fact infallible. The
infallibility stems from the infallibility of Hashem to communicate the
exact message he wishes to impart to the Novi, not metsad the Novi himself.


RDR then wrote:
See Daniel 12:8, Rashi and Ibn Ezra ad. loc

CM responds:
Daniel is not a problem for two reasons: 1) According to Rashi, Megila 14a
and gemara 3a, Daniel was not a Novi. (Although one could understand Rashi
as meaning he was a Novi but one without a shlichus to give over his nevuoh
to Yisroel and thus not among the 48 and of lesser stature than the 3, Ch.
Z. & M).
2) Even if he is counted among the Neviim, there is no problem. His not
understanding this aspect of his vision is an aspect of the clarity of the
vision as with all Neviim and their various levels of Nevuah (but Moshe
Rabbeinu av l'neviim) that were b'aspaklaria sh'eina meira. This aspect of
Nevuah is not a stira to infallibility of the Nevuah. The message Hashem
wants to impart ( at the level of clarity he desires) gets through to the
Novi, even if not all the mesholim and chidos are fully understood. But the
Novi realizes what remains unclear or a moshol and does not incorrectly
misinterpret milibo visions or mosholim that were fuzzy to him, they remain
as the mosholim he saw, but no incorrect message or translation is
transmitted. The bottom line -- the message may be fuzzy and in parts
remain as mosholim and chidos not fully understood, but the message that
Hashem wants to impart gets through infallibly and no incorrect message is
attributed to the not fully comprehended
  parts of the nevuoh.

RDE quotes sefer Haiikarim:
CM responds:
I think the quote can be understood in the light of what I wrote above. The opening line, "though that all the words of the 
prophets are true with out any doubt" is essentially the infallibility
aspect of the Nevuoh, the balance of the quote explains the various levels
of the "aspaklaria sh'eina meira." At least that's how I understand it.

RYZ quotes Rambam Yisodei Torah 7:1-3:
CM comments:
I think the key phrases wrt to this thread are in halchah 3: "... bemareh
hanevuoh derech moshol modi'in lo, umiyad yechokek belibo pisron hamoshol
bemareh hanevuoh, veyodea ma hu." (i.e. the message meant to be imparted is
understood clearly infallibly). But each part of the mareh is not
necessarily part of the message and thus not necessarily completely
comprehended, thus, the Rambam states "... meihem omrim hamoshol upisrono
... veyesh shehen omrim hapisron bilvad," but they NEVER give a pisron that
is contrary to the intended message.

RRRW wrote:
And so if I understand this correctly then we'd say: Miriam=Aharon=Moshe
regarding infallibility?
And if not why not?

CM responds:
Not at all. Moshe was b'aspaklaria hameira while Miriam and Aharon were
not! The level of the clarity was not the same, the one thing guaranteed of
ALL neviim was that the message received was never a MISINTERPRETATION by
the Novi even if some aspects of the nevuoh remained unclear or not fully
understood i.e. in the original form of the mareh, moshol or chido at
various levels of clarity - more for some, less for others, but NEVER
WRONG. The message Hashem wants to get through to the novi - does.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 14:30:29 -0400
hankman <sal...@videotron.ca> wrote:

> In response to the comments of RHB and RRRW below it has been my
> understanding (Although I can not cite a specific mekor) that the
> understanding by a Novi of his Nevuha is in fact infallible. The
> infallibility stems from the infallibility of Hashem to communicate
> the exact message he wishes to impart to the Novi, not metsad the Novi
> himself.

Ramban (Bamidbar 16:21) cites an interpretation of Rabbeinu Hananel
which seems to imply that Moshe misunderstood a particular
communication of G-d.  Ramban himself rejects his exegesis, on various
technical grounds but also because "halilah shelo yavin Moshe nevuaso
ve'yiteh bah".

http
://www.daat.ac.il/daat/olam_hatanah/mefaresh.asp?book=4&;perek=16&am
p;mefaresh=ramban

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> R Chanoch Bloom asked on Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 9:02am EDT:
> : Isn't gambling (i.e. Bingo) assur according to the Maran Beit Yosef?
>
> Moreso than the commmonplace Chinese Auction? Or buying a lottery
> ticket? Or dreidl of kvitlach paid for money?


I'm fairly sure the BY would say all those were asur also. See
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/michlol/pais.htm for a bunch of
references.

I found that page by googling for "Ovadia Yosef Mif`al Hapayis", since I
remember ROY's psak from some years ago that buying lottery tickets is asur.
The page mentions the psak without a reference, and I couldn't find one
elsewhere (http://www.torahmitzion.org/pub/parsha/tazria-heb.doc gives
Yabia` Omer 6, HM 7, but my copy only has 6 teshuvot in HM, so I'm not sure
if there is a later edition or there is a typo in the reference).
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On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> The Chinese Auction raises more money, although it can't be done as
> frequently -- probably would raise less overall, I would guess. However,
> from an AYH perspective, it creates an atmosphere that runs counter
> to developing histapkus. (I get ads for those things and they generate
> qinah in me...)
>

What is more, I find the fact that it raises more money worrying in itself.
What does it say about us that we give more tzedaka when we have an
expectation of getting something out of it?
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On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:17:39 -0600 Saul Guberman 
<saulguber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I think that both of you are missing part of the mitzuis here.  
>... Bingo is a nightly or
>weekly activity that is aimed at the general population.  It 
>attracts few Jews & no Torah observant Jews.

I don't know if you intend to object on the grounds that this is 
funding Torah education by taking advantage of people who don't 
even benefit from it (directly).  I would be sympathetic to that 
argument if that was your intention.

I'm just writing to add that if one could somehow attract Jews, 
especially Torah observant Jews, in order to avoid the above issue, 
then it becomes a serious bittul zman and accustoms people to a 
very non-Torah lifestyle/attitude.

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

<<. ?The term mavriach ari I am
familiar with as a concept within Baba Kama and the laws of compensation, ie
if somebody chases a lion away from your property , do you have to pay
them or not?,
What does this have to do with hilchos shabbas? ?Where is it found used it
in hilchos shabbas?  >>

R Zilberstein says it is obvious that it applies to Shabbos without a source.
He gives the example of a lion prevented someone from entering a building
and someone shoots the lion. He takes it for granted that one can enter
the building and it is not considered as benefiting from a melacha on shabbat.

grama is when one does the melacha but indirectly but one gets direct
benefit from
the melacha. An example would be watering empty soil but where eventually it
will seep and reach and nuture something growing. Mavriach ari means
that one gets
no benefit from what was done. One is simply removing the door that
was preventing
the person from entering. Now he enters into an empty doorway

<<?If a chiloni cooked food b'mazid
(or b'shogeg for that matter) on shabbas, are we not getting only indirect
benefit? ?After all, the food before was raw, the chiloni took away the
rawness of the food and made it edible, thus effectively scaring away the
lion that is preventing us from eating the food. ?Why, according to this,
cannot one eat it on shabbas? >>

Lost me on this one. Cooking the food is what makes it eatable and that
is an active role. Removing rawness is a meanlingless phrase.
In any case one is eating the food that was cooked or had its rawness removed
and so one gets direct benefit

R Zilberstein only brought the CI to assume that it is a deoraysa and strengthen
the question, he was not interested in the details
He takes for granted that pushing the buzzer is prohibted. The question
is whether another Jew can benefit from the melacha

In fact using Chanas case if someone blew out a candle there seems to
be absolutely
no problem for someone else to sleep there even when he couldnt sleep
in the light.
This is exactly mavriach ari. One gets no direct benefit from the
absence of light

<< So where is this said? ?>>

R Zilberstein has a set of seforim called Chashukei Chemed - ha-arot
ma-asiyot al seder hamesechtot.

It is coming out according to the daf yomi cycle with Baba Metzia just released.
I am not sure it is on every mesechet.
What I quoted is from mesechet shabbat 18b related to the gemara of
"assurim  bichdei sheyasu"

?> He then asked asked  a question from a MB who disallows using the
contents of a put when a
> Gentile opened the cover on shabbat for a Jew. Why should it be different?

forgot to mention the MB is 518:45
so the question is whether in these cases one would need to wait until
after shabbat a time of  bichdei sheyasu to remove articles from the
pit or else to enter the building.

<< ?Is it mutar for the one to ask the other to do
something that they cannot do but the other can (eg putting food directly on
the blech, if a Temani, putting cold soup onto the blech etc etc)? ?Is it
mutar to benefit - eg if invited for lunch? ?Are you obligated to refuse a
lunch invitation because you know the minhag of the family is to do things
that according to their poskim are mutar, and accepted by all to be mutar,
but are assur to you, eg because you are Sephardi/Ashkenazi - especially
knowing that he will do more of it because you are coming for lunch? >>

I dont know. I assume it depends on whether onr thinks it is halacha or chumra.
A similar case arises one whether someone who keeps Rabbenu Tam can ask
another Jew to do melacha because he holds like the Geonim.
In similar situations the poskim rule that it depends on whether one feels
that the halacha is like Rabbenu Tam to the exclusion of the geonim or
else one holds like abbenu Tam only lechumra


Eli Turkel

hankman wrote:
> This aspect of Nevuah is not a stira to infallibility of the Nevuah. 
> The message Hashem wants to impart ( at the level of clarity he 
> desires) gets through to the Novi, even if not all the mesholim and 
> chidos are fully understood.
See Rashi Vayera 22:12 s.v. "ki atah yadati" (the first of the two 
paragraphs);  ibid. Balak 22:12 s.v. "Lo selech imahem".

David Riceman

A few notes.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:45 AM, hankman <sal...@videotron.ca> wrote:

>
>  RDR then wrote:
> See Daniel 12:8, Rashi and Ibn Ezra ad. loc
>
> CM responds:
> Daniel is not a problem for two reasons: 1) According to Rashi, Megila 14a
> and gemara 3a, Daniel was not a Novi. (Although one could understand Rashi
> as meaning he was a Novi but one without a shlichus to give over his nevuoh
> to Yisroel and thus not among the 48 and of lesser stature than the 3, Ch.
> Z. & M).
>

See Maharatz Chayos, Mamar Divrei Nvi'im Divrei Kabalah, who discusses
Daniel and this Rashi, he also brings there that from the Rambam Hil Yesodei
Hatorah 7:2, is Muchach that he holds Daniel was a Novi. So why bother as
using this as an upshlog.

I have problems with your secont point


>   2) Even if he is counted among the Neviim, there is no problem. His not
> understanding this aspect of his vision is an aspect of the clarity of the
> vision as with all Neviim and their various levels of Nevuah (but Moshe
> Rabbeinu av l'neviim) that were b'aspaklaria sh'eina meira. This aspect of
> Nevuah is not a stira to infallibility of the Nevuah.
>

Since the Rambam's statement of "Viyeida Ma Hu" would contradict this.

IMHO the whole Kashe has no place since this Possuk was a Chelek of the
Nvuoh itself, IOW HKB"H wanted that Daniel should not understand and ask and
be answered, which is vital in the Nkudah that it is Sosum.

You add:


>   RYZ quotes Rambam Yisodei Torah 7:1-3:
> CM comments:
> I think the key phrases wrt to this thread are in halchah 3: "... bemareh
> hanevuoh derech moshol modi'in lo, umiyad yechokek belibo pisron hamoshol
> bemareh hanevuoh, veyodea ma hu." (i.e. the message meant to be imparted is
> understood clearly infallibly).
>

That was exactly what I meant in my mareh mokom.
However I also added from Halacha 1 and on, to emphasize that Nevuah is one
of the Yesodei Hadas, (and entails tha Mitzva of "Eiluv Tism'un" etc.) as
such it must be copletely true, furthermore a Novi Sheker is punished only
when he says good (Rambam ibid 10:4) if it can be interperted in many ways
(note the case of Daniel was for good), how can he be punished. Furthermore
see Hakdomas HaRambam to Perek Chelek where he explains the 4 differences
between the Nvuoh of Moshe RO"H and other nvi'im, without mentioning such an
obvious difference.



>  But each part of the mareh is not necessarily part of the message and
> thus not necessarily completely comprehended, thus,
>

I don't Know that I agree with this definition, since only Nvuah
Shehutzricha Ldoros was recorded, it would follow that every part is part of
the message, why it was not related we don't know.

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
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Simon Montagu wrote:
 
> What is more, I find the fact that it raises more money worrying in 
> itself. What does it say about us that we give more tzedaka when we have 
> an expectation of getting something out of it?

That we're human and respond to incentives.   We prefer to bring
korbanot shlamim rather than olot.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 6:08 PM, David Riceman <drice...@att.net> wrote:

>
>
> See Rashi Vayera 22:12 s.v. "ki atah yadati" (the first of the two
> paragraphs);  ibid. Balak 22:12 s.v. "Lo selech imahem".


Of course there is also Breishis 22:2 "Es Bincha" and 22:12 "Al Tishlach"
(interesting you linked the 2 22:12' <g>) , However

WRT Avrohom (in 22:12) it has nothing to do with what he is to do or not,
which he understood clearly, but what is Pshat and why there was no Stira
and HKB"H davka did it this way in order to bring out his Chavivus to
Avrohom Ovinu as per 2nd Rashi. and for the Chavivus pointed out in Rashi
22:2 D"H Es Bincha.
(note in addition this (as well of to Bilom) was a personal Nvuoh which has
different Gdorim see Lechem Mishna Hil. Yesodei Hatorah 10:4)

WRT Bil'am it was all part of the Nvuoh, IOW that is what HKB"H wanted for
him to go through all those steps, (to show how evil he was, as the Possuk
says the Lman Daas Tzidkas Hashem WRT to Bilom)

Which is also Pshat in  "Es Bincha" and "Al Tishlach"

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
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Simon Montagu wrote:
 
> What is more, I find the fact that it raises more money worrying in 
> itself. What does it say about us that we give more tzedaka when we 
> have an expectation of getting something out of it?

That we're human and respond to incentives.   We prefer to bring
korbanot shlamim rather than olot.


-- 
Zev Sero                     
=================================
But is that our aspirational goal, realizing that aiui one "reduces"
their schar in this manner.(e.g.Hanina's wife induced him to collect
from heaven an advance portion of his future lot. Hanina complied with
her request, and, in answer to his prayer, a golden table-leg was
miraculously sent him. Husband and wife were happy; but that night the
wife had a vision of heaven in which she saw the saints feasting at
three-legged tables while her husband's table had only two legs. She
awoke full of regret at the importunity which had deprived his table of
a leg, and insisted that he pray for the withdrawal of the treasure.
This he did, and the golden leg disappeared. Of this miracle the Talmud
says: "It was greater than the former, since heaven gives, but never
takes" (Ta'anit, 24b et seq.).)

KT
Joel Rich
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