Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 92

Wed, 20 May 2009

• 1. Re: Reuven's sin (Rabbi Y. H. Henkin)
• 2. Re: r. ovadia; bullfighting; eiva, etc.... (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Re: Are Upsherin and Bonfires Taken from the Gentiles? (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 4. Re: r. ovadia; bullfighting; eiva, etc.... (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Are Upsherin and Bonfires Taken from the Gentiles? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Reuven's sin (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: r. ovadia; bullfighting; eiva, etc.... (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: r. ovadia; bullfighting; eiva, etc.... (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Evaluating the Meshorah (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous (Chana Luntz)
• 11. Re: Smoking Addiction? (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. simchas yom tov (Shlomo Pick)
• 13. Re: Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 14. Re: Smoking Addiction? (Zev Sero)
• 15. Mordechai and Esther (Saul Guberman)
• 16. Re: german custom (Michael Poppers)

For Reuven's sin "al pashto" see Rambam Sotah 3:2, and compare Bava Batra
15b  "anyone who says that the Queen of Sheba was a female..."(!) >From
there see interpretation in Bnei Banim vol. 4 maamar 9, available at
hebrewbooks.org.
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R' Zev Sero asked:
> But in fact even for derabanans your kal vachomer doesn't
> work.  Tzaar baalei chayim is an explicit de'oraisa ("lo
> sir'eh"), so it makes sense that it overrides issurim
> derabbanan.  But where do you see an explicit de'oraisa
> for tzaar nochri?

We don't *need* an explicit de'oraisa for tzaar nochri! They are alive, aren't they?

Is it written somewhere that tzaar baalei chayim applies only to nonhuman baalei chayim?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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R Toby:
> B. the tendency to resist change. Although they seem mutually
> contradictory, in fact both tendencies are constantly operative.??
> Change is inevitable in any human society. The notable thing about
> Jews (Torah Jews) is that we approach any type of change very warily
> and cautiously. Changing while resisting change is not "hypocrisy"
> but the normal Jewish way of doing things. It has made us, Orthodox
> Jews, largely immune to the kind of radical and extreme changes that
> would tend to lead to our extinction, the kind of changes adopted by
> our C and R brethren.

While essentially agreeing I don't see shtreimels as a sensible resistance
in 90 degree weather!

AIUI both Hanukkah and the closing of the Volozhiner yeshiva as examples
of resisting IMPOSED changes. (Hareidim might say they were bot opposing
ANY form of secularization)

That is to say when the Hellenists or the Tsar imposed assimilation we
Jews revolted

However Hirsch's TIDE is a program that has filter for what is legitimate
to accept and what to reject. Most yeshivos here accept some or more
secular studies. And There may be similar programs.

Chabad under the late Rebbe embraced technology and translations into
many languages. Yet the pinched fedora is still part of a uniform -
just as the shtreimel is. So I guess not changing malbush is bigger
amongst Chassidim.

In my posts on Sukkah sensitivity, the schach symbolizes this filter to
the outside world.

For MOs in North America English is used most of the time - even in
learning - but not in davening. Move right and you get less English.
Move left and you get more.

Rav Gorelick had a mashal about ikkar and tafel. A tie enhances a man's
outfit, but when you run out of your house in your pajamas to escape a
fire it is ridiculous to put on a tie! :-). Thus the filtering process
must factor in priorities and avoid trivializing the process.

-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 09:26:49PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: harveyben...@yahoo.com wrote:
:>Can we apply the following kal vechomer: if to prevent an
:>animal from suffering that is not mechuyav on any mitzvos then for sure we
:>should be able to save a life of a ben adam, who is chayav 7 mitzovs and 
:>who was/is created in Hashem's image, by violating the shabbas?? [either 
:>midoraisa (a"y), or midirabonnon (muktzeh - animal) or  both...]
...
: But in fact even for derabanans your kal vachomer doesn't work.  Tzaar
: baalei chayim is an explicit de'oraisa ("lo sir'eh"), so it makes sense
: that it overrides issurim derabbanan.  But where do you see an explicit
: de'oraisa for tzaar nochri?

The argument extending lo sachsom shor bedisho to human employees presumes
that TBC is lo kol shekein about people too.

BTW, the definition of a person is a "chai medabeir" -- IE Ber' 3:2, Radaq
Shofetim 13:17, Abarbanel Shemos 20, (Bar Ilan CD).... (I always thought
it was very Aristo; the definition matches his notion of definition --
giving the class and then what makes this element unlike the rest of
the class.)

The Maharsha (Sanhedrin pereq 11, still BICD): Ki tachlis beri'as ha'adam
sheniqra "chai medabeir" stam....

Be'er haGolah 5:1 tells us the tzurah of man is "chai medabeir"...

There are also hits from R' Saadia, the Moreh, Chovos haLvavos, all
defining man, his nature or his tzurah as "chai medabeir".


That said, about the original question...
When we say "mishum eivah" is docheh Shabbos, is that really derabbanan
too? RHB's question is based on assumption -- I'm starting by asking if
someone can verify that assumption.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 40th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Yesod: When does
Fax: (270) 514-1507      reliability/self-control mean submitting to others?

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 02:51:20PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: AIUI both Hanukkah and the closing of the Volozhiner yeshiva as examples
: of resisting IMPOSED changes. (Hareidim might say they were bot opposing
: ANY form of secularization)

When the documents were made public with the declassification of much
of the KGB's inherited material from the Czars' era, it turns out this
wasn't why Volozhin closed. At least, it's not the entire story, although
it could be part of a "perfect storm" of causes.

Gov't records claim they shut it down, not R' Chaim, and it was because
the battles over successtion between RCB and RCB (R' Chaim Brisker and R'
Chaim Berlin) seemed to be dangerously close to Alexander III's fear of
anarchy. He already suspected the Jews of fomenting chaos to destabilize
his gov't.

Prof Shaul Stamper rewrote chapter 8 of his "HaYeshiva haLita'it
beChituvatah" (a/k/a "Lithuanian Yeshivas of the 19th Cent") when the
records were released to reflect this change in understanding. Because
this overturned commonly accepted knowledge, the documents are included
as an appendix to part I (Volozhin).

RNKamenetsky agrees with Stampfer's acceptance of the documents at
face value.

Li nir'eh it's possible that simply between both factors, it just wasn't
worth fighting the gov't anymore.

(Thanks to RARR for addressing the subject. The above is based on
recollection from his MP3s on Jewish History rounded out with more
recent Googling.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 40th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Yesod: When does
Fax: (270) 514-1507      reliability/self-control mean submitting to others?

Rabbi Y. H. Henkin wrote:
> For Reuven's sin "al pashto" see Rambam Sotah 3:2,

How does that prove anything?  It seems clear that we're telling her
whatever will produce the desired reaction, and we don't care whether
it's literally true, or whether she will misunderstand.


> and compare Bava 
> Batra 15b  "anyone who says that the Queen of Sheba was a female..."(!)

How do you know R Yonatan didn't mean that literally?  Why not take
him at his word, that the entire story is about an ambassador (of
unspecified sex) representing and acting for the kingdom of Sheva?
I don't know what would have made him think that, but if he said so
then presumably that's how he read the pesukim.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> R' Zev Sero asked:
>> But in fact even for derabanans your kal vachomer doesn't
>> work.  Tzaar baalei chayim is an explicit de'oraisa ("lo
>> sir'eh"), so it makes sense that it overrides issurim
>> derabbanan.  But where do you see an explicit de'oraisa
>> for tzaar nochri?
 
> We don't *need* an explicit de'oraisa for tzaar nochri! They are
> alive, aren't they? Is it written somewhere that tzaar baalei chayim
> applies only to nonhuman baalei chayim?

All it says is shor and chamor.  We don't *know* that it applies to any
other animals, but we can extend it to them by binyan av.  But where do
we find *explicit* authority to extend it to humans, so that we could
then treat it as a d'oraisa that overrides issurim derabbanan?

Q: How *do* we know that it applies to birds and fish?  For that matter,
how do we know it applies to chayot?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Micha Berger wrote:

> The argument extending lo sachsom shor bedisho to human employees
> presumes that TBC is lo kol shekein about people too.

What extension?  For people we have a separate pasuk.  Had we only had
the pasuk about a shor, would we have extended it to humans?

 

> That said, about the original question...
> When we say "mishum eivah" is docheh Shabbos, is that really derabbanan
> too? RHB's question is based on assumption -- I'm starting by asking if
> someone can verify that assumption.

1. I don't understand your question.  If it were derabanan then it
*couldn't* override a d'oraisa.  Or do you mean that we only need
"mishum eiva" to override de'oraisas, but for derabbanans we don't
need any heter and can do them bepashtus?

2. The heter to be mechalel shabbos to save a nochri is very very
recent.  The Shulchan Aruch, and even SA Harav, which is late 18th
century, know of no such heter.  They say openly that we should tell
them we only break shabbos for those who keep it, and they will accept
that.  Presumably this was true until the early 19th century, which is
when we start to see this heter mishum eiva.

Going back to my second hava-amina in item 1, if this were so, surely
we would see this distinction made in SA and the rishonim and achronim.
They would say that de'oraisas we can't do, but derabbanans we can.
But AFAIK they all forbid chilul shabbos, without distinguishing
between de'oraisa and derabbanan.  Maybe it's because it was so poshut
to them that of course derabbanans were permitted; but that seems a
bit strained.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 07:30:29PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: The following is information that I have gathered regarding
: the viability of our Mesorah.? Please evaluate

Its viability isn't in question. We live by it, it works.

You can collect data about how it is viable, by anyone who actually
follows halakhah would have no question about the viability of the things
it's founded upon.

...
: 1.Torah Text Authenticity; Many sources indicate our
: modern-day sifrei Torahs are not letter for letter, word for word authentic
: copies of the original STorah written by Moshe Rabeinu.? (Yerushalmi Taanit
: 4:2, Soferim 6:4, Tos Shabbas 55b, extensive work by Gil Student, etc,).

Not an issue. As you site, RGS discusses this.

: 2. Torah v. Torah Discrepancies: Count 50 days for the Omer
: v. Count 7 weeks; Eat Matza for 6 days v. Eat Matza for 7 days...
: discrepancies are explained away by the mesorah we are currently attempting to
: evaluate; but nevertheless, they exist.]

This is called derashah. It's how the TSBP works. Now, if you didn't buy
into TSBP -- despite it being the source for the overwhelming majority
of the aforementioned halakhah -- then you would have a great question
disproving Qaraism and Xian Fundamentalism.

This isn't like you're mentioning anything new.

To put it another way, you say much by speaking about what is "explained
away" rather than "explained". The former is a term someone uses when
they think the answer post-dates the question. Rather, it proves to
anyone who bought into the TSBK that it can only be "Cliff Notes" for
a far greater TSBP. Beliefs that stand on one without the other fail.
Beliefs that TSBP is a later rabbinic invention fail. Nu? Neither of
those are us. Just add C to the two aforementioned groups that have to
grapple with your question.

And the difference in the redemptive quality of C and halakhah should
have gotten you to that point already.

: 3.Nach v. Nach Discrepancies:? taken from:
: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistenc
: ies.html

Ditto.

: 4.Mesorah (zugos, etc.,) as they appears in Pirkei Avos and
: in the Rambam....

And the problem is?

: 5.Mishna v. Mishna discrepancies; many.
: 6.Mishna v. Baraisa v. Tosefta discrepancies (some resulting
: in different Halachic interpretations); many.
: 7.Gemmara re-phrasing and re-editing of Mishnayot (chasurei
: mechsora; something being heard/darshened out in the name of someone else,
: etc.,) ? ?

Isn't this why TSBP is dynamic? The whole G-d - man partnership means
that there will be human interpretation and thus machloqes. That's the
point -- G-d giving us the tools to redeem ourselves.

: 10. Many known cases of xian (muslim?) censors editing
: and/or changing parts of Shas.

And the problem is?

: 11. Zohar Authenticity; many hold that the Zohar (or part of
: it) was not authored by the Rashbi, including R. Yaakov Emden (Sefer Mishpat
: Sefarim)....

Not quite. He writes that a core was written by Rashbi, and the rest grew
around it before publication. Realize also that the Zohar was accepted
as authentic by the rishonim of the period -- that limits how new the
ideas in it could have been.

As for its halachic impact, the Vilna Gaon went through the entire Zohar
and found no nafka mina lemaaseh. Even the Chassidim, who did find new
practices based on the Zohar found what -- all of a half-dozen or so? Does
that really blow into a major question about the mesorah as a whole?

: 12. Many Baal Shem Tov Stories never happened, yet are
: repeated world-wide thousands of times a day (and even more often on
: Shabbas)....

And the problem is?

You have something against inspiring stories? Or do you think the naivite
of many listeners makes the whole mesorah problematic?


The way these questions are piled on, each requiring pages of response --
and already addressed here in the --- past makes me wonder about the
person who posed them to you. To paraphrase R' Chaim Brisker -- are
these questions to which he is seeking answers, or are these his answers?

The notion of Sabbath rest that produced a Chafetz Chaim is the one
found in his Mishnah Berurah. How many presumptions questioned in your
post are taken for granted in order to start discussing irui keli rishon
and tea leaves?

    Sof davar hakol nishma
    es haElokim yera
    ve'es mitzvosav shemor
    ki zeh kol ha'adam.

Try that, and the questions evaporate. It becomes a question of "how
is it so obviously viable despite", not questioning viability. The
explanations of TSBP are obviously Divine Intent as given (or inspired,
in the case of Nach) along with the text, not an after thought to
"explain away" a problem. The conclusion is obvious -- "ta'amu ure'u",
"na'aseh venishmah". First taste and do.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 40th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Yesod: When does
Fax: (270) 514-1507      reliability/self-control mean submitting to others?

RSBA writes:

> The MB and SA Harav who are the leading poskim for most of the Jewish
> world,
> both say to wait.

This qualifies for my usual Ashkenazocentric exortation.   At most one could
say "the MB and SA Harav are the leading poskim for most of the *Ashkenazi*
Jewish world".  I am sure there are people here who would want the Aruch
Hashulchan in here - and others who would want the Kitzur, but regardless,
the point still stands.

It is somewhat ironic to me, that the Sephardi poskim do indeed go on about
the tircha d'zibbura involved in waiting, and how it diminishes simchas yom
tov, and they generally lived in places where the wait was not so bad,
whereas in Ashkenaz, where you can be talking about nearly 11pm at night
before you can make Kiddush, the minhag arose.

As a personal aside - I confess that Shavuos is the yom tov that always
makes me most miss Australia.  Pesach in Australia was pretty odd, being in
the autumn, channukah was arguably weird, lighting candles at 9pm, Rosh
Hashana and Yom Kippur somehow feel the same everywhere, but Shavuos was so
much nicer in Australia.  Firstly, it started at a reasonable time - I
reckon RSBA will be making Kiddush by 7pm if not earlier.  But it was not
only that, you had time to have a decent, nice yom tov meal, at a reasonable
time, when you feel like eating, and then could still trot along to shul
(usually for some speakers and plenum session) - usually from around 9pm to
11pm or midnight.  And after that the real learning started, with hourly
sessions - but because you didn't daven till after 5am, you would have at
least 4-6 of those.  By the time you got to shachris, you felt like you had
really done something.  Whereas here in England, or even in Israel, you rush
through dinner, which is far too late for one to really be able to eat
(achila gassa really springs to mind) you get maybe an hour or two of
learning, and then that's it, it is shachris.  Maybe if somebody organised a
tikkun leil that started early, broke for a meal, and then resumed, it could
capture some of the same feel (I assume you would have to put the kids to
bed before you started, but here, lets face it, most of the kids I know miss
shavuos night until they are older as most people around here put kids to be
around 7-8pm like on a normal night), but I have never heard of anybody
doing that.

> SBA

Regards

Chana

CRW
> I have seen very frum smokers who claim that they are addicted and cannot
> stop.Then, like magic, as soon as Shabbos arrives, they put down the
> cigarettes


That's easy to explain:
Shabbos brings with it a neshima yesiera! :-)

-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

The following argument was suggested:

There are opinions that allow one to daven early and even make 

Kiddush early. Also, waiting to daven after Tzeis is a D'Rabbonon. 

However, simchas Yom Tov is a D'oreisa. Most people do not enjoy 

beginning to eat at say 9:30. For kids it is particularly difficult. 

Therefore, davening after Tzeis and then beginning to eat late 

conflicts with the simchas Yom Tov of many. How can this D'Rabbonon 

take precedence over simchas Yom Tov?

 

In the areivim list I suggested that concerning simchas yom tov at nite:

Not so simple about that simchas yom tov, some authorities hold there is no
simchas yom tov at nite, but only in the daytime in accordance with korbanot
hachag. Accordingly, eat your beef and drink that wine in the day time.  The
only nite that simcha is mandated is leil shmini atzeres which has a special
limud (ribbui).

 

Now that the above argument has become more sophisticated with d'rabbanons
and d'oraitas involved, let's not forget that most mainstream rishonim and
posekim hold that keriyat shma should be recited after tzeis.  This was then
combined with birchot keriyas shma to be recited after tzeis. The Rosh who
represents minhag ashkenaz and others record that one should say tefila with
the congregation but wait with keriyat shma and brachos until after tzeis
According to all these posekim, davening immediately after sunset is a
bedieved situation.  Mention was made of Jacob Katz's article about the
development of the custom to daven early, and how with the vilna gaon and
the Chassidim and the advent of normal clocks, they went back to the old
time religion of the first mishna of brachot and wait with arvit so that
keriyas shma and brachot should be said on time.

So perhaps the argument should be reversed: on the day of accepting the
torah one should look not look for kulos (lenient rulings) but return to the
pristine halakha of the very first mishna in sha'as as poskened by the
majority of rishonim and posekim and say keriyat shma with brachot bezmano. 

I will add a drash I heard Monday nite from the stropkover rebbe on the
yahrzeit of his mother.  Last shabbos we learned the first rashi on the
parsha of ma inyan shmitta etzel Sinai.  His drasha was shmitta from the
same root lehishtameit, like from the army, draft dodging.  Rashi is asking
why does one try to dodge Sinai, the mitzvoth of Sinai, for everything in
one way or another was given on Sinai.  The answer is in the first rashi of
the second parasha. Im bechukosai teileichu, and rashi says it means to be
ameilim batorah - not to daven up the tikkun but to be ameilim batorah -
that is what Talmud torah is about.

 

Chag sameiach

Shlomo

 

 

 

 

 

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Chana:
> It is somewhat ironic to me, that the Sephardi poskim do indeed go on
> about the tircha d'zibbura involved in waiting, and how it diminishes
> simchas yom tov, and they generally lived in places where the wait was
> not so bad, whereas in Ashkenaz, where you can be talking about nearly
> 11pm at night before you can make Kiddush, the minhag arose.

Well Chana not only are their splits bet Ashkenaz and Sepharad, but also
within Ashkenaz, too!

EG AFAIK, Yekkes do not daven ma'ariv late by Shavuos. The litmus test
for MOST Western Ashkenazim are minhaggim of Maharil, Rema, and sometimes
Levush (and the other usual suspects!)

Also note that GRA and SA harav have an earlier tzeis than does Rabbeinu
Tam. So waiting for their tzeis is not as onerous.

FWIW I was at Queens Jewish Center circa 1985 for Shavuos

Nusach ashkenaz davened regular YT time

Nusach Sepharad had the late "tzeis" minyan

My shul in the Heights. [Consisting of elderly] we davened the usual
7:10-7:15 pm. If I had a large congregation I would also have an early
minyan and a late minyan as a matter of policy. Why should elderly be
forced to daven late?

---------------
R Shlomoh Pick
> let's not forget that most mainstream rishonim and posekim hold that
> keriyat shma should be recited after tzeis.

True! Yet Magen Avraham warns people to repeat shema after tzeis because
of lack of KS al hamitta - This clearly implies several points, that:

1 they davened before Tzeis
2. Everyone stayed up all night

I don't mind davening late per se myself, but it is a tircha for many
and especially for zkeinim as mentioned above.

-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Cantor Wolberg wrote:

> I have seen very frum smokers who claim that they are addicted and 
> cannot stop.
> Then, like magic, as soon as Shabbos arrives, they put down the 
> cigarettes (which, of course, are also muktzeh) and until
> havdalah, they don't take a puff.  If they were so addicted, how is it 
> that they could immediately stop for 25+ hours.

They do not claim this, it is true.  Addiction is a poorly understood
phenomenon.  It is certainly not completely chemical.  The mind plays
a huge role in it, in ways that are not well understood.  There were
very many US soldiers who in Vietnam constantly used all sorts of drugs,
and yet as soon as they came back to the USA they quit immediately
without help of any kind.  The change in circumstances was enough to
change their behaviour.  There were others, of course,  who did not find
it so easy.

At any rate, for someone like my zeideh a"h, it is the simple truth
that during the week he found it impossible to give up smoking, but
on Shabbos not only didn't he smoke, but he said that he didn't even
miss it.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

 Yitzhak Grossman  wrote:

>
> There's a lot of speculation out there that Mordechai and Esther derive
> from Marduk and Ishtar, but a quick googling indicates that it is just
> that - speculation.  There seems to be no actual evidence for the
> hypothesis, and some scholars reject it, e.g.:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=RxYXAAAAYAAJ&;printsec=titlepage#PPA77,M1
>
> Anyone know anything interesting about this?
>

Per Rabbi Menchem Leibtag:
http://www.tanach.org/purim.htm
  The name Mordechai is probably the most provocative word in the entire
Megilla for it stems from the name of the Babylonian deity -Marduk (see II
Kings 25:27 & Yeshayahu 39:1!).
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In Avodah Digest V26#88, RSP wrote:
> There is a German custom of Chol Kreiss, i.e. verses of the Torah read by
youth by a male child before giving a secular (chol) name.  When was this
practice started and by whom? It can be found in the Seligman Baer Siddur,
after the Torah readings on p 494 (Seder Avodat Yisrael, Tel Aviv 5717
[1957] edition).
> The term has a combination of Hebrew (chol) and German? (Kreiss).  I
doubt
it's an original Jewish minhag or perhaps it is to give sanctity (?) to a
non Jewish name. <
and R'Micha responded (in the next digest):
> I was thinking the reverse -- it's to remind the child (and his parents)
that he's a Jew, despite being about to get a German name. <
"Sharshei Minhag Ashk'naz" Vol I, pp. 415-455.  It's a minhag, RSP, which
dates to the Rishonim, and its name might better be transliterated
"hollekreisch," that is, to _call out_ the sheim-_chol_ of the child, but
that "calling" was but a small part of the event, at least for boys, as can
be seen from the seider p'suqim which was read and from the seider b'rachos
("yilmod zeh mah shekasuv bazeh...") revolving around the chumash which was
placed on the tinoq.  (The "hollekreisch" for girls seems to have been more
like what I see nowadays in shul: "v'niqra shmah b'Yisrael" as part of a
"Mi sheBeirach.")

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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