Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 86

Fri, 15 May 2009

• 1. Re: More on The Strange History of Lag B'Omer (Saul Guberman)
• 2. Re: Boys Being Taught How to Cook (Saul Guberman)
• 3. Teaching boys to cook (Saul Mashbaum)
• 4. Re: [Areivim] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of Gedolei Hap oskim (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 5. Re: is mayim acharonim a chumra? (Michael Poppers)
• 6. Upsherin (was The Strange History of Lag B'Omer) (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: Love/Mercy as a Factor in Halakhic Decision (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: Boys Being Taught How to Cook (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Boys Being Taught How to Cook (y...@aol.com)
• 10. ain mikreh v. shabbas 55b; re: reuven, dovid, etc, (harveybenton@yahoo.com)
• 11. Re: Upsherin (was The Strange History of Lag B'Omer) (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 12. Re: Boys Being Taught How to Cook (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Upsherin (was The Strange History of Lag B'Omer) (Rich, Joel)
• 14. Modern Orthodoxy (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Re: [Areivim] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of GedoleiHaposkim (Michael Makovi)

He did give a source.  Rav Chaim Vital in I think it was Etz Chaim as a
Maaseh Rav of the ARI Z"L.  AIUI, the making of bonfires on Lag B'Omer even
outside of Meron, has been going on since that time.  It seems to be one of
the many Kabbalistic practices that have become standard part of Judaic
practice.

Saul


On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 07:37, Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>wrote:
>
>>  After listening to Prof. Shnayer Leiman's talk titled *The Strange
>> History of Lag B'Omer*, I can only wonder what the basis is for the
>> "celebrations" that are held on Lag B'Omer night in many places. According
>> to him, there is no basis for such behavior. In addition, he says that the
>> proper celebration of Lag B'Omer, if there is to be any, is fasting. This
>> seems to imply that what goes on in Meron is "inappropriate," at best.
>>
>> Can anyone justify what we see going on in our times regarding the
>> "celebration" of Lag B'Omer? Is Dr. Leiman wrong in what he says about this
>> day?
>>
>
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Ben wrote:

> Right but only with Jacob's sons do we actually see the Avot shepherding.
> With Avraham it is explicit that he had employees doing the work. So yes,
> technically they may called themselves shepherds, but tachlis Avraham was
> home and others did the shepherding.
>

Why not assume that he also did sheperding until some point in his life?

Ben wrote:

> And frankly I think that we are really being romantic about the job of
> shepherding. From Yaacov's description of his job in Breishit 31:40 it
> doesn't sound like a job which is conducive to philosophizing. And from what
> I saw when I lived in Niger, not much has changed.


Not romantic.  I hear it is one of the more boring occupations.  According
to a note in RAK's Living Torah, the p'sukim of Breishit 30:37-30:41, Yaacov
is engaged in the deepest of SOD.  It is significant that so many of the
leaders of Klal Yisroel were sheperds.

Saul
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RBWaxman:

 All we can learn from that is that people should have a profession, lav
: dafka sheperding.


RMBerger

>>

How do you conclude that? Think of it... shepherding allows someone to
learn WHILE working.

>>

Yaakov Avinu took a job as a shepherd for Lavan, and we see from the
Torah that he had a hard time of it, working day and night, and wasn't
always succcessful in preventing thefts. The Rambam writes in the Yad
that a worker must work as hard as he can, proving it from the
hard-working Yaakov  Avinu (see Rambam Hilchot S'chirut 13:7); the
Rambam there says that "Yakov Hatzadik" was rewarded in this world
("Vayifrotz haish m'od m'od..") for his responsibilty and dedication
to his job. At least in this case,
shepherding was far from the cushy job pictured above.


Although much is, legitimately, made of Yaakov's achievements as a
yeshiva bochur,ish tam yoshev halim, he was designated by the Rambam
above as "Yaakov Hatzadik" in the framework of his personal integrity
and work ethic, which is a model for all of us. Haleivai shenizkeh
l'cach, v'd"l.


RMB:
>>

Would Moshe Rabbeinu have become Moshe Rabbeinu if he
had a job that didn't include hours of quiet contemplation?
>>

It is obviously impossible to answer this hypothetical question, but I
am inclined to believe that the answer is yes.

There are indeed maamarei chazal in praise of shepherding, as
practiced by the ushpizin. OTOH, roei b'heima daka were in the time of
chazal apparently for the most part untrustworthy individuals, and
this does not seem to be the preferred position for a nice Jewish boy
at that time.

Having said this, there is an undeniable charm in shepherding; my
daughter Shoshana was a shepherdess for a period of time, in drom Har
Chevron, David HaMelech territory.

Saul Mashbaum

R"n Chana Luntz wrote:
> In general, as I have said before, the question of tinok
> shenishbah comes up halacha l'ma'ase most commonly in
> three situations:
> a) can a non frum man be counted in a minyan?;
> b) can a non frum man be given an aliya?; and
> c) can a non frum kohen duchen?

I'd add a few more:

d) Can I cook for a non-frum Jew on Yom Tov?

e) Can I offer food to a Jew who presumably won't make a bracha on it?

f) IIRC I've seen this question regarding tenants and an Eruv Chatzeros

AIUI, this question applies to *any* case where a special privilege or
status is granted to a fellow Jew. A sinner does not behave like a Jew and
therefore forfeits that privilege or that status. Following that logic,
I've seen cases where such sinners are denied the privilege of being buried
in a Jewish cemetery, or even being the recipient of other chesed.

On the other hand, I have not (or have only rarely) seen cases of treating
our non-from brothers so harshly. Unless I'm mistaken, this is NOT because
the halacha allows these things for a sinner -- it is because nowadays we
do not treat these people as sinners.

(PS: Vocabulary note: I have used the word "sinner" here because it is
deliberately vague. I don't want to get sidetracked into a discussion of
what kind of sinner is in which category, such as merely "l'tayavon" or
full-blown "l'hachis". Wherever you want to put that line, I'm simply
mentioning which mitzvos it will be relevant to.)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Click here for expert wrinkle removal with Botox cosmetic solutions!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL21
31/fc/BLSrjnsK5di051Wmh3LoGXk6wIoL1HVwkeXs9jP4vgeBIptmqOAtyZlLonW/

RZS responded to me:
>> Mei'inyan l'inyan, a Q for those who wash MA because, after all, 
chamira
sakanta mei'isura: do you also wash between eating basar and eating
dagim (see Tur 173 and BY&SA 173:2) <<
> Only if I've touched the fish with my fingers. <
The case in Siman 173 seems to be eating *meat* first, not fish.  In any 
case, your mentioning your fingers reminds me of RRW's "can napkins clean 
zuhama?" question and also brings to the fore the claim that MA isn't 
necessary in a situation where cutlery is used to avoid touching the food.

> Mayim emtza'iyim reshut <
Again, see Tur 173 and BY&SA 173:2.  "Meat followed by fish" isn't the 
classic ME situation.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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At the suggestion of an Areivim Moderator I am redirecting this post 
to Avodah.

At 12:39 PM 5/14/2009, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:

>I heard a lecture on this topic 15 years ago, given by Rav Gruzman 
>at the Midrasha LeBanot at BIU.
>
>He discussed the custom mentioned in TNCH where Shmuel's mother 
>brought him to Eli when he was a child.
>
>Rav Gruzman stated that this was the source of an ancient minhag 
>(that most don't know about) to take a 3 yr old child to kever 
>Shmu'el HaNavi and there a ceremony of starting school (with honey 
>etc.) took place.
>
>It also apparently included upsherin.
>
>For anyone interested, there is a kollel studying regularly at Kever 
>Shmuel nowadays.
>
>Shoshana L. Boublil

I know that most will not like this source, but here it is anyway.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upsherin where it says

Some <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi>Haredi rabbis, among them 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi>Rabbi 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaakov_Yisrael_Kanievsky>Yaakov Yisrael 
Kanievsky (the Steipler) and 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi>Rabbi 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzchak_Zev_Soloveitchik>Yitzchak Zev 
Soloveitchik opposed the practice on various grounds, but it is 
popular among <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Jews>Hasidic Jews 
and has spread in recent years to other Jewish groups.

and

The upsherin tradition is (for Judaism) relatively modern and has 
only been traced back as far as the 17th century. The practice was 
likely adopted from a Muslim custom that dates back to the 15th 
century, in which pilgrimages to the (supposed) grave of the Prophet 
Samuel (the shrine known as Nebi Samwil) were accompanied by 
celebrations that included haircuts and bonfires. 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musta%27arabi_Jews>Musta'arabim 
(Arabicized Jews living in Israel, who were criticized for adapting 
numerous Arabic customs) accompanied the Muslims on these pilgrimages 
to the grave site. The Musta'arabim were eventually barred from the 
pilgrimages, at which time they switched to Meron, and continued the 
custom of haircuts and bonfires.

Yitzchok Levine  
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RJR wrote:
> Interesting that you state it that way when in our generation ?ideas of
> Rishonim have been declared not just questionable but apikorsut (for us
> of course, not them)

Ahem. Good point. Perhaps that other extreme isn't all that convincing, either?

-- 
Arie Folger
http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

Saul Guberman wrote:
> Ben wrote:

>> Right but only with Jacob's sons do we actually see the Avot
>> shepherding. With Avraham it is explicit that he had employees doing
>> the work. So yes, technically they may called themselves shepherds,
>> but tachlis Avraham was home and others did the shepherding.
> 
> 
> Why not assume that he also did sheperding until some point in his life?

Why yes assume it?  Why not assume he was a bricklayer or a tent-
manufacturer?  Is this like the thing about Rashi being an egg salesman?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

> Ben wrote:?
?
>> Right but only with Jacob's sons do we actually see the Avot?
>> shepherding. 

See Breishis 46:34.

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

-----Original Message-----
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Sent: Thu, 14 May 2009 5:49 pm
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook


Saul Guberman wrote:?
> Ben wrote:?
?
>> Right but only with Jacob's sons do we actually see the Avot?
>> shepherding. With Avraham it is explicit that he had employees doing?
>> the work. So yes, technically they may called themselves shepherds,?
>> but tachlis Avraham was home and others did the shepherding.?
> > > Why not assume that he also did sheperding until some point in his life??
?
Why yes assume it? Why not assume he was a bricklayer or a tent-?
manufacturer? Is this like the thing about Rashi being an egg salesman??
?
-- Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you?
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people?s money?
? - Margaret Thatcher?
_______________________________________________?
Avodah mailing list?
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org?
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org?

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chumash: "And it came top pass, when Israel dwelt in that land,
  that Reuven went and lay with Bilhah, his father?s concubine, and Israel
  heard."

Rav Alex Israel/Yeshivat Har Etzion:
http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/intparsha67/08-67vayishlach.htm
?
Rashi cites the midrash brought on Shabbat 55b:
?
Because he switched around his [father's] bed, the Torah treats him as if he slept with her.? 
Now, why did he switch and desecrate his bed? ?When Rachel died, Yaakov took his bed, 
which was placed most frequently in Rachel's tent rather than the other
tents, and Yaakov put his bed in Bilha's tent.? Reuven came to protest his
mother's insult.? He said: "If my mother's sister was a rival-wife to my
 mother, should the maidservant of my mother's sister now become a
 rival-wife to my
 mother?"? Therefore, he
 made the switch......[snip]
 
Perhaps to emphasize our question, the "headline" for this midrash as it
appears on Shabbat 55b is: "If you think that Reuven sinned, you are
mistaken." ?How are we to 
understand this rabbinic statement? ?Clearly Reuven sinned?it is explicitly written in the Torah text! ?How can Chazal utterly disregard the peshat?

hb 1; r. alex does not bring down the gm accurately in my opinion; the
gemmara does not say reuven (or dovid, etc,) did not sin; only that "anyone
who says so... is mistaken";? The loshon of the gemmara seems to be very
round-about and does not explicitly say the people mentioned did not
sin.....
2: we have a klal in torah that "ayn mikreh yotzei midei peshuto"; are we supposed to abandon this principle in favor of the gemmara's interpretation of
 events that appears to go against peshutei d'mikreh in chumash, novi, etc??? HB 
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On Thu, 14 May 2009 15:36:59 -0400
"Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

> At 12:39 PM 5/14/2009, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
> 
> >I heard a lecture on this topic 15 years ago, given by Rav Gruzman 
> >at the Midrasha LeBanot at BIU.
> >
> >He discussed the custom mentioned in TNCH where Shmuel's mother 
> >brought him to Eli when he was a child.
> >
> >Rav Gruzman stated that this was the source of an ancient minhag 

How ancient is this custom?  What's the earliest evidence for it?

> >(that most don't know about) to take a 3 yr old child to kever 
> >Shmu'el HaNavi and there a ceremony of starting school (with honey 
> >etc.) took place.

The standard view is that Shmuel was two upon being brought to the
Temple, not three; see Ta'anis 5b "u'mi siv Shmuel kuli hai ..." and
Rashi s.v. yamav shel Shmuel nun-beis shanah.

> >It also apparently included upsherin.

Upsherin in particular is apparently not all that ancient; from Brodt's
article:

"The source for the Upsherin custom is highly problematic. R. Benyamin
Shlomo Hamberger, Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz 3:251-267, attacks it for
the following reasons: there is no mention of this custom in any of the
rishonim. Now do not say they did not bother to write it down as we
have very detailed discussions from the rishonim about this time period
in a Jewish boy?s life how to take him to cheder etc. (discussed by R.
Hamburger at great length in volume two of his Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz
2:502-532) but there is no mention of the Upsherin custom.[4]
Furthermore, he shows from many places in the times of the rishonim
they cut their hair long before three years old. Another big question
dealt with by Yaari and later on in more detail by Hamberger is the
attributing the custom of Upsherin on Lag Ba-Omer to the Arizal. This
attribution is problematic as it is documented that the Arizal did not
cut hair the entire sefirah ? including Lag Ba-Omer. This particular
issue M. Benayahu does not find to be such a problem as it could be
what he did to his son and what he himself did were two different
things. Another issue R. Hamberger raises is even if there is such a
minhag what does it have to do with Rashbi and where do we find such a
thing to give a haircut in a grave yard? Further more he brings sources
[amongst them a National Geographic Magazine!] which claim that it come
from outside ? Arabic influences. R. Hamburger does defend it a little
that it still makes sense to keep if it comes from outside sources.
However after seeing all this documentation of R Hamburger notes that
it makes sense why we can not find sources in litvishe or Hungarian
sources ? as there are no early sources in rishonim!

Professor Sperber [Minhagei Yisrael 8: 13-30] takes Hamberger's
discussion much further documenting how this comes from many completely
outside ancient sources. R. Yechiel Goldhaber (author of the Minhagei
ha-Kehillos) told me that he just saw a manuscript of a letter of R.
Akiva Yosef Schlesinger who writes very sharply that this whole custom
is taken form outside sources."

http://seforim.traditiononline.org/index.cfm/2008/5/22/Lag-Ba
Omer-and-Upsherins-in-Recent-Jewish-literature-Revisionist-History-and-Borr
owing-and-Plagiarism

or

www.kitzur.com/5w4l3

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

y...@aol.com wrote:
> 
>> Ben wrote: 
>      
>>> Right but only with Jacob's sons do we actually see the Avot 
>>> shepherding. 

> See Breishis 46:34.

Are you assuming that what they were to tell Par'oh was the strict
truth?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

 

Professor Sperber [Minhagei Yisrael 8: 13-30] takes Hamberger's
discussion much further documenting how this comes from many completely
outside ancient sources. R. Yechiel Goldhaber (author of the Minhagei
ha-Kehillos) told me that he just saw a manuscript of a letter of R.
Akiva Yosef Schlesinger who writes very sharply that this whole custom
is taken form outside sources."

===========================================================

The weight of anecdotal evidence imho points towards us having
acculturated some stuff into our playbook over the years. How and why
that was allowed to work is an interesting question which we haven't
resolved. Another interesting question to me is given changing recording
technology, will this happen in the future as well (e.g. will one day
someone prove that wearing Dockers (or name your favorite group's mode
of dress) was really Jewish custom)
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
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distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

Sometimes you hear someone articulate what for you is an inchoate (
imperfectly formed or formulated )  inner voice. In the attached audio
link, you'll find a               beautiful (IMHO) articulation of one
of my favorite themes combining the Rav (R'YBS among others) [our mutual
covenant of destiny ] and Thomas Cahill (Gift of the Jews) and the
concepts of cyclical (halachik) time {clock related} and historical
{covenantal} time. While we may be good at the clock stuff (e.g. daily
prayers) where do we stand in our role as members of a people who have a
covenantal destiny (e.g. bringing the ultimate redemption)? 

Why did Jews stop recording history in any real way after churban?
Perhaps we became cyclical and lost our historical/prophetic voice -
Rabbis  Hirsch, Kook and  Soloveitchik all were moving back to
covenantal/prophetic approach which hadn't been seen in millennia 

His charge to us: build a modern (chochma) chesed society in Israel but
listen to the music of time (The Rav called this  - "God's psak through
history ") and always ask - what does God want of me/us (as individuals
and as members of a covenantal community) now? 

http://www.csstorage.org/audio/downloadaudio.php?audio=21
<blocked::http://www.csstorage.org/audio/downloadaudio.php?audio=21>  

Kol Tuv, 
Joel Rich
 
 
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
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R' Doron Beckerman writes,
> 1) The level of knowledge today suffices to judge them as Mezidim (Radvaz
> (they have been *warned* to return to Torah,not just heard about it)

But today, their level of knowledge is pathetically low! Growing up,
attending Reconstructionist Hebrew school, we never even opened up a
real Humash! We learned out of a textbook based on the Humash! I
remember one time when the teacher said a person cannot learn Kabbalah
until he is verses in Judaism and Torah, and one girl piped up that
since we were all already bar/bat mitzvah, therefore, we were all
versed in Judaism and prepared for Kabbalah! Does this qualify as
knowledgeable??!! I wonder if she even knows what the Talmud IS!

And whatever they DO know, is in the perspective of R/C, which serves
to inoculate them against Orthodoxy. That is, they already believe
they know what Judaism says, say before you even can approach them
with Orthodoxy, you first have to disprove R/C theology. We're talking
some serious philosophical discussions. (Or perhaps a nice Shabbat
table to first butter them up. Be that as it may...)

As for their being warned: this is irrelevant. The klal of azhara is
that the azhara has to be one that has the koah to be listened to. For
example, if you give an azhara without sufficient love or concern, the
sinner will only get angrier and rebuff your azhara; thus the Gemara
says, "No one anymore knows how to give a proper reproof". Similarly,
here, the R/C laity is SO far from observance and Torah, that almost
any azhara has almost no chance of being listened to. That is, ANY
azhara given to R/C is, ipso facto, one that cannot be reasonable
expected to be received by the one being warned.

In days past, the people all knew that Orthodox Judaism was authentic.
They may have been sinners, but they knew what authentic Judaism was.
Sephardim today might be similar. But Western Jews all honestly
believe that Orthodoxy is totally wrong and inauthentic, and that R/C
is the "true" Judaism. Therefore, any azhara from an Orthodox Jew is
almost impossible to hear, similar to an azhara given with hate and
venom and self-righteousness. There can be NO reasonable expectation
of the azhara actually being listened to.

Because of all this, merely meeting Orthodox Jews is woefully
inadequate. No matter how many Orthodox Jews they see, this doesn't
correct their error. Their error
is that they believe Orthodoxy is an invalid or outdated form of
Judaism. The correction to this error is education, and we're talking
REAL deep hinuch. Some philosophical individuals will realize on their
own that Orthodoxy is true (see, for example, Rabbi Lawrence Keleman's
story; in short, he studied the history of R/C and realized they had
no claim to being the inheritor of Judaism, in historical terms), but
this cannot be expected of most.

The RambaN, as quoted by Rabbi Yom Tov Schwarz's Eyes to See (he has a
lengthy chapter on TsN), says that a day could come when Am Yisrael
mistakenly believes that the mitzvot no longer apply. The RambaN held
this could one day happen, and Rabbi Schwarz says it has in fact
happened, in our own days. So one could even be an expert in all of
Gemara and Shulhan Arukh, and still be a TsN. How? If he believes,
wrongly, that the Torah is no longer obligatory! So as far as these
people know, the Orthodox are wrong! You have to first prove to them
that Orthodoxy is correct, and not merely prove that Orthodoxy
*claims* to be correct.

And just knowing that Orthodoxy claims to be correct, is of no
relevance. People also know that there are Christians who claim that
Christianity is binding, and there are Muslims who claim Islam is
binding, and there are rabid atheists (Dawkins, for example) who claim
that atheism is binding. So there very well may be plenty of Orthodox
Jews who claim that the Torah is obligatory. But so what? The Orthodox
Jews can be placed right next to missionizing Mormons and Hare
Krishnas; one more religion that claims to be correct, whipidee do!
The non-observant Jews do not doubt the fact of the existence of the
Orthodox Jews who claim to be correct. Rather, they doubt the very
veracity of the Orthodox claim! To take these individuals out of the
status of TsN, and into the status of meizid, one must PROVE to them
that the Orthodox are actually correct. Until this is proven (which
necessitates, at the very least, that the R/C individuals intently
study the Kuzari and the Nineteen Letters and the like, which I doubt
many non-Orthodox Jews have done), they are still shogeg.

Michael Makovi


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