Volume 26: Number 84
Wed, 13 May 2009
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:14:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of Gedolei
The topic for some reason drifted to Areivim. Not sure why. In any case,
RDBeckerman cited some sources that really brought things more on topic
for here:
: The latter two Teshuvos of RMF were written regarding Jews in America in
: 5740 and 5741, (and Kal Vachomer to EY). RSZA's Shittah was articulated
: by Rav Neventzahl in 5750 regarding Jews in EY at that time - at that time
: RSZA told Rav Neventzahl that the Chilonim in EY were Mezidim (!). [Sefer
: Binah VaDaas pg. 534, letter to the author from Rav Neventzahl].
: It isn't a function of Jewish *education*. RSZA (as I quoted from that
: footnote in Halichos Shlomo) is explicit that even in the Kibbutzim they
: are not Tinokos Shenishbu. It is,as RSZA said, a function of *awareness*
: of Judaism as a religion that places demands on all Jews. They choose to
: reject those demands. You can then klehr to what extent their rejection
: is Meizid, Shoggeg or Oness (and there is no Klal in this, it varies by
: individual) - but there is an awareness.
: I heard R' Avigdor Miller say that the Jews in NY who hear the rejoicing
: on Simchas Torah can't be considered Tinokos Shenishbu.
And the Rambam's precedent WRT second generation Karaim?
Mamrim 3:3 (Yinglish translation, mine, you can check
<http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/e303.htm#2> for yourself):
When are these things said, by a person who denies TSBP based on
his own thought, and the way things appear to him, and he followes
his krum reasoning, and the rule of his heart. The person who denied
TSBP first, and all those who err following him.
BUT -- the children of those who erred and the grandchildren, who
were compelled by their parents and born to meenus, and raised them
on it, they are like a TSN levein haamim and raised by gentiles
according to their religion, that HE IS ONOOS. And ever if he hears
afterwards that he is a Jew, and he sees Jews and their religion,
he is like an anoos for they raised him on their error. KAKH EILU
HA'OCHEZIM BEDARKHEI AVOSEIHEM SHETA'U.
...
Seems pretty clear that 2nd generation Qaraim or C or R Jews, even ones
who learn of O, are in the same class as TSN.
Starting from first principles, the Rambam's position is compelling. How
does knowing about the existence of something that he were taught by
his upbringing to be prejudiced against make him not anoos to follow
them? (One might even argue that since he has much to unlearn, teshuvah
would be harder for him than someone who encountered Yahadus for the
first time.)
All of these quotes by RDB are about a generation or two before this
one. It is arguable that the assumed awareness isn't abstract knowledge.
And while this may seem a stretch, I think it's a far bigger stretch
to take these acharonim as holding differently than the Rambam as well
as being in a manner that doesn't fit the psychological basis of the
gemara's initial statement that a TNS is patur because he an oneis.
Also, given Ishei Yisrael pg 138 fn 52 (which I found was referred to
here and in mail-jewish), where RSZA is quoted as saying that it's better
to daven in a minyan of shomerei Shabbos, but if you can't, you can rely
on those who hold that non-O Jews are TSN.
RSZA's position is nuanced; as is RMF's. As RMShinnar pointed out in
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n019.shtml#01>, one can't take
RMF as labeling someone a TSN or not across the board, one must instead
discuss "TSN WRT hilkhos..."
We discussed all this on Avodah. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=T#TINOK%20SHENISHBA>.
I found the vol 15 iteration more helpful.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 33rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Hod sheb'Hod: LAG B'OMER - What is total
Fax: (270) 514-1507 submission to truth, and what results?
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:30:24 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] sephira question
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 12:53:41PM -0400, hankman wrote:
: There are only 49 counts (either in arrears or in advance)...
This isn't quantum mechanics, it's computer programming. Called the
"fencepost problem" from the question: If you have a split-rail fence
that's 100 yards long, and you have posts every 10 yards holding up the
rails, how many posts are there in all?
The answer is 11. (Not 100 yd / 10yd = 10.) There is a post at 0, the
begining of the fence, at 10 yd is the 2nd post, at 20 yd is the 3rd,
... and at 100 yd is the 11th.
In programming, when iterating down a collection, you often have to be
very aware whether you want to count up to x or ad velo ad bichlal --
for this very reason. The fence is counted at ve'ad bichlal, so that
0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, and 100 is a set with 11
elements.
Does "lispor" here mean "to count" or "to measure"? Your "in arrears"
doesn't really capture what I mean.
Translate "Hayom yom echad b/lao'mer" as time since. Thus, we're not
counting day 1 in advance, we're measuring one day since. If you want
to say we're counting anything, we're counting the day of the first
seder in arrears, after the day is complete.
Tisperu 50 yom, the Maadanei YT explains, includes day 0 -- Nissan
15. It's like the first fencepost at 0 yards. The first day is at the
start, we don't have any time to measure. A day later we measure being 1
day in, but it's the 2nd day of the series. (Cardinal -- 1 day passed,
ordinal - 2nd day.)
Our sefirah is like the yardage -- a measurement of length of time.
"One day passed so far in the omer" is something you say at the beginning
of the second day of the period.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 33rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Hod sheb'Hod: LAG B'OMER - What is total
Fax: (270) 514-1507 submission to truth, and what results?
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:35:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
First work on shepherding, which was the profession of at least 5 of
the Ushpizin. Then we can talk about teaching our children cooking.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 4
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:57:39 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Washing after Eating
> fyi
> I had two temani couples as shabbos guests.
> I noticed that it was pashut to them that the women had to wash mayim
> achronim just like the men did.
> mordechai cohen
FWIW I queried a teimani friend
What do teimanim do for mayyim acharonim at seudah shlishith and
subsequent arvith?
Answer: they pass around full barrels of clean water and use regular
netilah keilim and wash full netilas yadayim style into empty recepticle
barrells
Then after benching they wash AGAIN before Tefillah!
-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
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Message: 5
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 22:30:49 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of
Thinking about this psak by Rav Moshe, it seems very strange (to me at
least) that Rav Moshe paskens a huge makhloqet Rambam-Radbaz in half a
sentence. No discussion, no bringing of proofs, no svera, just some 10
words. This doesn't seem to be reasonable.
Ben
----- Original Message -----
From: Doron Beckerman
They are not Tinokos Shenishbu because, to quote RMF in Even HaEzer:
"They (Reform) are not at all to be considered Tinokos Shenishbu since
they see many Shomrei Torah and Mitzvos, and see also Radbaz that there
is almost no such a thing"
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Message: 6
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 22:33:28 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
All we can learn from that is that people should have a profession, lav
dafka sheperding.
Ben
----- Original Message -----
From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
To: <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
> First work on shepherding, which was the profession of at least 5 of
> the Ushpizin. Then we can talk about teaching our children cooking.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:57:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:33:28PM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
: All we can learn from that is that people should have a profession, lav
: dafka sheperding.
How do you conclude that? Think of it... shepherding allows someone to
learn WHILE working. Would Moshe Rabbeinu have become Moshe Rabbeinu if he
had a job that didn't include hours of quiet contemplation? The Shelah on
"umoshe hayah roeh es tzoni Yisro chosno" seems to be saying that Moshe
learned derekh Hashem by extrpolating from his own experience to hos
HQBH would lead His "flock" -- and that directly led to the subsequent
revelation at the seneh! Would David haMelekh been David haMelekh without
practicing leadership through-rachmanus on his sheep?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 8
From: Saul Guberman <saulguber...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:59:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
>
> How can you say that? All the Avot, the redeemer from Egypt & the
> "ultimate" king were shepherds and you can still say there is nothing to
> this profession? The professions could have varied between them all;
> farmer, merchant, tent maker, spice trader, etc. but the profession does
> not vary.
>
> Saul
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 15:33, Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:
>
>> All we can learn from that is that people should have a profession, lav
>> dafka sheperding.
>>
>> Ben
>>
>
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Message: 9
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:09:28 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] use of reason
<<The following statement is made in the article (fourth
paragraph):"From these two definitions we see that science formulates and
deals with theories and hypotheses while Torah deals with absolute truths. >>
Obviously they dont follow the Rambam.
The obvious conclusion is that G-d has a hand since the Torah talks about
yad chazakah (and myriads other such anthromorphisms) and we dare not
use our human logic to deny the absolute truth of the Torah
Does this also extend to pi=3 since that is implied by yam shel shlomo and
any other explanations are rationalizing a pasuk into a mathematical
theorem which
obviously cant compete with absolute truth
Bottom line there are many pesukim we don't take literally
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 10
From: Ilana Sober Elzufon <ilanaso...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:16:39 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of
RDB, quoting RSZA: at the end of the day, he knows and hears that there are
Shomrei Torah and that according to what they say he must act like them, and
therefore it is very difficult to say that his status is that of Tinok
Shenishba
I don't really understand the reasoning here.
Let's say someone is growing up C or R. So they know that there exist O Jews
who keep Shabbat, eat kosher, and believe all other Jews should do the same.
They also know that there are Xtians who accept J as their saviour and
believe everyone else, Jews included, should do the same. And that there are
vegetarians, atheists, Mormons, Communists, Democrats, Republicans, etc etc
who are all convinced that everyone else really must see the light and share
their beliefs.
Why on earth should such people take the Orthodox Jewish claim any more
seriously than any of these other claims?
Non-O Jews, naturally, see themselves as mainstream and O as fringe. They do
not see O as Truth and themselves as deviating from it.
- Ilana
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Message: 11
From: "Samuel Svarc" <ssv...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:25:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of Gedolei
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org [mailto:avodah-
> boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Micha Berger
>
> The topic for some reason drifted to Areivim. Not sure why.
Email me off list for the backstory.
> In any case,
> RDBeckerman cited some sources that really brought things more on topic
> for here:
> : The latter two Teshuvos of RMF were written regarding Jews in America in
> : 5740 and 5741, (and Kal Vachomer to EY). RSZA's Shittah was articulated
> : by Rav Neventzahl in 5750 regarding Jews in EY at that time - at that
> time
> : RSZA told Rav Neventzahl that the Chilonim in EY were Mezidim (!).
[Sefer
> : Binah VaDaas pg. 534, letter to the author from Rav Neventzahl].
We are talking 1980's and 90's here. This *is* already a few generations and
would seem to refute your assertion (below).
> : It isn't a function of Jewish *education*. RSZA (as I quoted from that
> : footnote in Halichos Shlomo) is explicit that even in the Kibbutzim they
> : are not Tinokos Shenishbu. It is,as RSZA said, a function of *awareness*
> : of Judaism as a religion that places demands on all Jews. They choose to
> : reject those demands. You can then klehr to what extent their rejection
> : is Meizid, Shoggeg or Oness (and there is no Klal in this, it varies by
> : individual) - but there is an awareness.
>
> : I heard R' Avigdor Miller say that the Jews in NY who hear the rejoicing
> : on Simchas Torah can't be considered Tinokos Shenishbu.
These criteria, IMHO, lie at the crux of the matter. Once they know it
exists their personal clock for culpability starts ticking.
> And the Rambam's precedent WRT second generation Karaim?
>
> Mamrim 3:3 (Yinglish translation, mine, you can check
> <http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/e303.htm#2> for yourself):
> When are these things said, by a person who denies TSBP based on
> his own thought, and the way things appear to him, and he followes
> his krum reasoning, and the rule of his heart. The person who denied
> TSBP first, and all those who err following him.
> BUT -- the children of those who erred and the grandchildren, who
> were compelled by their parents and born to meenus, and raised them
> on it, they are like a TSN levein haamim and raised by gentiles
> according to their religion, that HE IS ONOOS. And ever if he hears
> afterwards that he is a Jew, and he sees Jews and their religion,
> he is like an anoos for they raised him on their error. KAKH EILU
> HA'OCHEZIM BEDARKHEI AVOSEIHEM SHETA'U.
> ...
>
> Seems pretty clear that 2nd generation Qaraim or C or R Jews, even ones
> who learn of O, are in the same class as TSN.
The above mentioned poskim either:
- Learn the Rambam differently, or
- Have other Rishonim on which they rely on, because they are explicitly
saying the opposite of how you understood it.
> Starting from first principles, the Rambam's position is compelling. How
> does knowing about the existence of something that he were taught by
> his upbringing to be prejudiced against make him not anoos to follow
> them? (One might even argue that since he has much to unlearn, teshuvah
> would be harder for him than someone who encountered Yahadus for the
> first time.)
Because once he knows of its existence he is m'chuyav to find out about its
veracity. So was explained to me by R' Berger from Aish (IIRC - Where I held
the position that BD wouldn't kill a TSN who was m'challel Shabbos and he
disagreed).
> All of these quotes by RDB are about a generation or two before this
> one.
Correct, the 80's and 90's are a generation or two ago. It is also quite a
few more generations after the start of the R and C movements. Certainly,
the quotes were explicitly dealing with at least 3rd generation R and C
Jews.
<SNIP>
> Also, given Ishei Yisrael pg 138 fn 52 (which I found was referred to
> here and in mail-jewish), where RSZA is quoted as saying that it's better
> to daven in a minyan of shomerei Shabbos, but if you can't, you can rely
> on those who hold that non-O Jews are TSN.
These are points that need addressing, but so do RDB's original quotes;
these conflicting points don't "cancel out", so to speak.
> RSZA's position is nuanced; as is RMF's. As RMShinnar pointed out in
> <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n019.shtml#01>, one can't take
> RMF as labeling someone a TSN or not across the board, one must instead
> discuss "TSN WRT hilkhos..."
I actually checked RMShinnar's post and look at what he wrote.
"4) Question to the extent that current non Shomre mitzvot are actually a
TsN, (in most of his language he uses dome leTsN) - Rav Moshe clearly holds
(whcih is the svara of the Radbaz with regard to the Karaim) that those who
have contact with the dati community but reject it (see for example EH 1:82)
do not have the status of a TsN"
I think it's unanimous then. This *is* RMF p'sak: most R and C Jews are
*not* TSN.
KT,
MSS
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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:16:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of Gedolei
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 4:25pm EDT, R Samuel Svarc wrote:
: These criteria, IMHO, lie at the crux of the matter. Once they know it
: exists their personal clock for culpability starts ticking.
Let's go back a step. The phrase TNS comes up in the gemara as an
example of shogeig in which the person commits numerous aveiros under
the same error.
How is it then possible to take someone who is committing aveiros under a
misapprehension due to upbringing and NOT call him a TNS? Alternatively,
if you do, why wouldn't he be equally a shogeig despite the lack of label,
and thus have the same din anyway?
I think in v2n109 I tried to conclude that today's TSN, who may have
heard of Torah but told to dismiss it as quaint, backward, or whatever is
an oneis, not a shogeig, and that's why he's not a TSN. I can't recall
my argument (maybe it was based on the Radvaz below), or how it helps
address the conclusion of the IM or of RSZA anyway.
...
: The above mentioned poskim either:
: - Learn the Rambam differently, or
: - Have other Rishonim on which they rely on, because they are explicitly
: saying the opposite of how you understood it.
I am questioning that last clause. E.g. In IM, OC 5:28.22 RMF presumes
the non-O Jew in question "sees and knows shomerei Torah umitzvos and they
know that there are gedolim and more intelligent and rational people than
their parents"... (as quoted by RDE, the Yad Moshe, in our vol 2 iteration
of this discussion <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n110.shtml#02>)
How many non-O Jews do you know consider R' Elyashiv more intelligent
and rational than their own parents and authority figures?
The Radvaz (2:12) is discussing 2nd generation anusim, who do very well
know what they're rejecting. I'm not sure the case is nearly parallel to
nidon didan.
BTW, recall that according to the Radvaz (4:187), someone who rejects
TmS because of honest speculation leading to the wrong answer isn't a
kofeir. Rather, it's a kind of oneis. Would someone who was misled by
their upbringing be WORSE? (Well, RAYK's notion of the holy idealist
might say, "yes". At least this person grappled with the right questions!)
...
: Because once he knows of its existence he is m'chuyav to find out about its
: veracity. So was explained to me by R' Berger from Aish (IIRC - Where I held
: the position that BD wouldn't kill a TSN who was m'challel Shabbos and he
: disagreed).
But that's not how psychology works; and the gemara's sevara is about
being under an honest error. As is the Rambam.
:> All of these quotes by RDB are about a generation or two before this
:> one.
: Correct, the 80's and 90's are a generation or two ago. It is also quite a
: few more generations after the start of the R and C movements. Certainly,
: the quotes were explicitly dealing with at least 3rd generation R and C
: Jews.
The IM is obviously older, as RMF stopped writing before the 80s.
...
:> Also, given Ishei Yisrael pg 138 fn 52 (which I found was referred to
:> here and in mail-jewish), where RSZA is quoted as saying that it's better
:> to daven in a minyan of shomerei Shabbos, but if you can't, you can rely
:> on those who hold that non-O Jews are TSN.
: These are points that need addressing, but so do RDB's original quotes;
: these conflicting points don't "cancel out", so to speak.
No, I think they bring to question the assumption that "know of" means
academic knowledge of their existence, while stilll under the miseducation
that they are meaningless. As seems to me from the IM above as well,
he's talking about knowing that he's rejecting something that should be
worth his time to explore.
:> RSZA's position is nuanced; as is RMF's. As RMShinnar pointed out in
:> <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n019.shtml#01>, one can't take
:> RMF as labeling someone a TSN or not across the board, one must instead
:> discuss "TSN WRT hilkhos..."
: I actually checked RMShinnar's post and look at what he wrote.
: "4) Question to the extent that current non Shomre mitzvot are actually a
: TsN, (in most of his language he uses dome leTsN) - Rav Moshe clearly holds
: (whcih is the svara of the Radbaz with regard to the Karaim) that those who
: have contact with the dati community but reject it (see for example EH 1:82)
: do not have the status of a TsN"
: I think it's unanimous then. This *is* RMF p'sak: most R and C Jews are
: *not* TSN.
Again, "were". He also assumes that their clergy consciously rejected TmS
more than their followers do. I went to Columbia Engineering with numerous
JTSA students studying for ordination. (In the same combined plan I was
doing with YU, but JTSA is next-door to Columbia so the program is more
popular. Most of the yarmulkas in class were not atop O heads.) I can
not agree that this knowing what they rejected was the metzi'us in the
mid-80s, never mind today.
So, I have two choices: either to assume RMF was misled about the
metzi'us, or that he was describing something else. But in no case
does that distinction fit the criterion that knowing we're out there
removes one from the class of TsN. The lay people know that no less than
the clergy!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 33rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Hod sheb'Hod: LAG B'OMER - What is total
Fax: (270) 514-1507 submission to truth, and what results?
Go to top.
Message: 13
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:29:01 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
What I meant was that today, all we can learn from the avot (and Moshe and
David for that matter) is that a young man should learn a profession, lav
dafka sheperding. I wasn't speaking about them.
Ben
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:33:28PM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
> : All we can learn from that is that people should have a profession, lav
> : dafka sheperding.
>
> How do you conclude that? >
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
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Message: 14
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 03:07:36 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] is mayim acharonim a chumra?
I did a bit more research
See SA Oh 179:1 which seems to define hefsek between mayim acharonim
and benching in the way I meant
Viz. Don't eat or drink any more.
The MB 179:1 goes on to be makpid on dibbur because of tekef lintilah
bracha
I posit that those who are makpid by mayyim rishon not to talk until
after hamotzi learn tekef lintilah bracha as applicable to mayyim rishonim
and therefore hefsek dibbur by mayyim acharonim is unnecessary as it is
being tofeis 2 chumros.
Bottom line AISI
It is maspik to be makpid on dibbur by mayyim rishonim alone and to hold
like Rambam and Mechabeir that hefsek by mayyim acharonim is not about
dibbur, but a different "din" or "min" of hefsek.
Ayein Bai'er Hetev 179:1
"Aval lehafsik bedibbur muttar."
-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
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Message: 15
From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:37:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] use of reason
Eli Turkel wrote:
> <<The following statement is made in the article (fourth
> paragraph):"From these two definitions we see that science formulates and
> deals with theories and hypotheses while Torah deals with absolute truths. >>
>
> Obviously they dont follow the Rambam.
>
Clearly. See, for example, Hakdamah LPHM, tr. Kafih, p. 3, the end of
the paragraph beginning "v'ka'asher met".
David Riceman
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Message: 16
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 05:53:38 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:29:01PM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
: What I meant was that today, all we can learn from the avot (and Moshe and
: David for that matter) is that a young man should learn a profession, lav
: dafka sheperding. I wasn't speaking about them.
I still don't see how you can justify that generalization. It's not
like the avos, Moshe, David, most of the shofetim, all of our leaders
who both had opportunity and pre-dated the economic problem of stripping
Israel bare of grass (shepherding was looked down upon in later years),
were in a single profession. How do you get from that to ignoring the
particular profession?
In terms of the original point, if you won't concede anything as
specific as shepherding, I guess you also wouldn't concede RYL's point
about teaching cooking.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507 and maintain a stable relationship?
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Message: 17
From: Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 14:58:22 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Love/Mercy as a Factor in Halakhic Decision
RMMakovi wrote:
> Anyway, my point was, that I've lost count of how many times Orthodox
> polemicists have criticized the Conservative interpretation of Beit
> Hillel's victory, viz. "they were lenient". Since Rabbi Halevy said
> exactly this
I write the following with great hesitation, R'HDhL was a great TC and
yerei shamayim.
Nonetheless, by now, you might understand why R'HDhL isn't always part
of consensus and some people squirm when thinking of some of his
famous quotes. He does at times sound a little Conservative. (chv"sh
that I would label him C; I am just explaining why some of his ideas
might not be so accepted and acceptable. Definitely, he has no more
authority than anyone else to kasher an opinion; we in halakhic
Judaism don't have a pope, nor do we have a Committee on Jewish Law
and Standards or whatever it is called. Sadly, we do not have a
Sanhedrin yet. It is our way that ideas are debated and either
accepted or rejected over time. However, unlike Rambam, Rashba and
other Rishonim, I don't think that we can assume that by virtue of his
greatness, ipso facto none of RHDhL's ideas could be questionable. He
would need more support.)
Kol tuv,
--
Arie Folger
http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com
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Message: 18
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 14:24:25 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
Actually, that isn't quite accurate. Abraham and Isaac owned a lot of
animals but where are they described as sheperds? Jacob was given the job
when he went to Lot's; he didn't choose it. Same with Moshe; he was given
the
job. Only David can really be described as having been a sheperd and in all
probability that is what his family did.
Ben
>
> I still don't see how you can justify that generalization. It's not
> like the avos, Moshe, David, most of the shofetim, all of our leaders
> who both had opportunity and pre-dated the economic problem of stripping
> Israel bare of grass (shepherding was looked down upon in later years),
> were in a single profession. How do you get from that to ignoring the
> particular profession?
>
>>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
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Message: 19
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 08:15:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] is mayim acharonim a chumra?
rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> The MB 179:1 goes on to be makpid on dibbur because of tekef lintilah
> bracha
Not his chidush. SA Harav says to limit conversation to "a bit of
speech, two or three words".
--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people?s money
- Margaret Thatcher
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