Volume 26: Number 83
Tue, 12 May 2009
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:59:48 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of Gedolei
Micha Berger wrote:
> When RMF z"l wrote that teshuvah, JTSA wasn't ordaining women, never
> mind people who proudly advocate their homosexual "lifestyle". JTSA had
> no bible critical requirements; today they require of their graduates
> more hours of denial of TmS than of "halakhah" (as they define the term).
I don't know about formal hours of bible criticism, but as of Solomon
Shechter's day JTS did teach denial of TmS and expected students to
accept it. R Herbert Goldstein z"l nearly got kicked out of JTS for
giving a sermon about TmS; Schechter told him he would only be allowed
to stay because he was going to graduate soon anyway.
--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
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- Margaret Thatcher
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Message: 2
From: Doron Beckerman <beck...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 21:06:50 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of
RMB asks:
>> This is back a generation or 2. Now that that generation is raising the
leadership of today, does the same pesaq hold? <<
Yes. Because the underlying reason remains the same. It isn't a function of
their particular Chinuch.
They are not Tinokos Shenishbu because, to quote RMF in Even HaEzer:
"They (Reform) are not at all to be considered Tinokos Shenishbu since they
see many Shomrei Torah and Mitzvos, and see also Radbaz that there is almost
no such a thing"
And RSZA:
"However it seems that it is not like a Tinok Shenishba unless he never
heard of the Jewish religion, and he did not know that based on Torah law he
is required to observe the Mitzvos, and therefore nowadays only those who
grew up in Russia during the time of the evil government... but not one who
knows that there are observant Jews who declare that all Jews are obligated
to keep the Torah, especially in Eretz Yisrael where even one who was raised
and lives in a place where they educate to heresy and consumption of Treifos
and Shabbos desecration and uprooting of every Davar Shebikdushah, such as
in "Kibbutzim" where there is no spirit of Judaism at all, nevertheless, at
the end of the day, he knows and hears that there are Shomrei Torah and that
according to what they say he must act like them, and therefore it is very
difficult to say that his status is that of Tinok Shenishbah."
[He adds that nevertheless they should not be hated, since they are Shoggeg,
and one should draw them close with bonds of love, but nevertheless they are
not the same as Tinokos Shenishbu].
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Message: 3
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:43:50 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of
I don't see in Rav Moshe's tsheuva (EH IV:59) that he is talking about
Israelis. It seems clear to me that he talking about Americans as the case
is about some couple who got married by a Reform rabbi and divorced in a
civil court. That doesn't happen here. Secondly, where do secular people
see Shomrei Torah and Mitzvot in any way that makes a difference? They see
some guy at work with a kippa who goes to Mincha for 10 minutes? There is a
debate going on in the list about the value of teaching Torah if the
purpose is not kiruv. What value is there in "seeing many Shomrei Torah and
Mitzvos"?
Ben
From: Doron Beckerman
They are not Tinokos Shenishbu because, to quote RMF in Even HaEzer:
"They (Reform) are not at all to be considered Tinokos Shenishbu since
they see many Shomrei Torah and Mitzvos, and see also Radbaz that there
is almost no such a thing"
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Message: 4
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:58:51 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] is mayim acharonim a chumra?
R' Rich Wolpoe wrote:
> Is our society's use of napkins (serviettes) a halachiclly
> acceptable alternative to mayyim acharonim? If yes, then
> the minhag pashut to NOT wash mayyim acharonim could be
> defended on this basis.
and in the thread titled "Mayim Achronim - Washing after Eating Is "Mayim Achronim" a law or a stringency?", R' I. Balbin quoted a Tshuvah from Rav Aviner:
> Therefore, all depends on the situation. One who eats neatly
> without becoming soiled from the food is exempt from "Mayim
> Achronim." But if his hands are dirty ... he may not recite
> the blessing without washing "Mayim Achronim."
As I understand it, Mayim Acharonim is about much more than simply having clean hands.
Mayim Acharonim must be done with a reviis of water; smaller amounts are
invalid even if it is enough to clean the hands. Even the reviis has to
come from a keli; washing from a faucet doesn't count. One may not talk
after Mayim Acharonim; if he does then IIRC he has to wash again even
though his hands are already clean.
Are these writers really talking about Mayim Acharonim, or are they talking about something else?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:41:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] is mayim acharonim a chumra?
kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> Mayim Acharonim must be done with a reviis of water
No, it doesn't. There is no minimum shiur. And al pi sod it should
be done with as little water as possible, because it is the "chelek
adam rasha".
> Even the reviis has to come from a keli; washing from a faucet
> doesn't count.
Where do you get this from? Even if koach gavra is needed (and I
don't know why it should be), the first water to come from the tap is
with koach gavra, and thus is OK even for mayim rishonim, and
certainly for mayim acharonim. And since mayim acharonim is only
once on the fingers of each hand, and it's only a little, it's
easy to stick the fingers of both hands under the tap immediately
and wash them both in that first surge of water.
> One may not talk after Mayim Acharonim; if he does then IIRC he has
> to wash again even though his hands are already clean.
One may say a few words after mayim achronim; one just can't make a
huge hefsek.
--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people?s money
- Margaret Thatcher
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Message: 6
From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:44:16 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] is mayim acharonim a chumra?
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" kennethgmil...@juno.com
<<Mayim Acharonim must be done with a reviis of water; smaller amounts are invalid even if it is enough to clean the hands.>>
Not true; the Mishna Berura (181:10) specifies that he is upset (ra alai
hama'aseh) that people don't wash properly. His recommendation: at least
the first two joints of the fingers. No mention of a volume requirement.
<<Even the reviis has to come from a keli; washing from a faucet doesn't count.>>
Not true. One must wash INTO a keli, not from one (Mechaber 181:2).
<<One may not talk after Mayim Acharonim>>
True.
<<; if he does then IIRC he has to wash again even though his hands are already clean.>>
This is lichvod the beracha (techef lentilas yadayim beracha) and does not require re-washing bed'avad.
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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Message: 7
From: harveyben...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:10:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Avodah] use of reason: science v. talmud: duplicitous?
A. The chabad.org?
posting on Religion v. Science has implications that I believe are
incorrect.? If, what the article is
saying is true, namely that rational thinking, the scientific method
(induction, deduction, extrapolation, interpolation, etc) are suspect; then I
believe we would need to ask about the same uses of logic and reason in
Talmudic/Rabbinical Literature. Does not Talmud Bavli/Yerushalmi and all the
post-Talmudic Halachists not use use logic, inferences, kal v?chomer?s, etc??
Weren?t there myriads of Halachos that were ?re-deduced? after Moshe?s death?
B. The following statement is made in the article (fourth
paragraph):"From these two definitions we see that science formulates and
deals with theories and hypotheses while Torah deals with absolute
truths." HB:? No ?proofs? for the
validity of the Torah exist today other than those that employ logic and
reason; to the contrary, to my knowledge,?
there exists no historical (written/archaeological, etc,) proof of any
of the events described in the Torah; including the Creation, the 10 plagues,
decimation and exodus from Egypt, Israelite sojourns in the Desert, Plastered
Stones set up by Moshe & Yehoshua, Noah?s Ark/Evidence of? the Flood 5,000 years ago, etc.?
C. The only proofs currently proffered, are one?s that
involve logic and reason [a. most number of alleged witnesses to Sinai (no dvd
or video of event notwithstanding), complexity of universe is beyond that of
chance (again, no extant dvd of creation), direct transmission of mesorah from
one generation to the next (possibly true if the original witnesses were alive
to confirm the original events -- but they are not, etc.]
D. If logic and reason are suspect as is inferred (correctly
or not on my part) from the article?. Is this use of reason/logic
(Talmud/Halacha) and condemnation of it at the same time (science) duplicitous
on the part of the authors??
Sincerely,
HB
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Message: 8
From: Harvey Benton <harveyben...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:18:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Avodah] chabad.org link to science & religion; forgot 2
my previous post to Avodah (on reason & possible duplicity) did not include this link; please include... HB
chabad.org:? Are
Science and Religion a Contradiction?
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108395/jewis
h/Science-and-Religion.htm
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Message: 9
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 02:36:49 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Karpas/Davar shetivulo bemashkeh
>> Rambam Hilchos hametz 8:1-2
>
>> Afterwords one recites al netilas yadayim and washes one' hands..
>> He begins and recites the blessing borei pri ho'adamah takes the vegetable
>> dips it in charoset and eats a kezayis
>> Each and everyone do not eat less than a kazayis,,,"
> Rambam is stating since one is washing with a bracha therefore one MUST
> eat no less than a k'zayis.
> Where are you getting that from? It's certainly not in the Rambam.
> Zev
The beiur halachah actually says muich the same in the name of the rashbetz
Except he claims zero washing on less than a kezayyis. I said to wash
w/o a bracha misafeiq.
-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
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Message: 10
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 01:59:20 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] is mayim acharonim a chumra?
R' Gershon Dubin said that Mayim Acharonim does *not* need to be done with
a reviis. I stand corrected. MB 181:19 says that the Gra *use* a reviis,
but not that he *required* a reviis.
He also showed me that I was mistaken about needing a keli; a faucet is indeed sufficient. Thank you; I need to learn this again!
Even so, what is this ruach ra which (see O"C 181:2) restricts me from washing in some places?
And why is talking after Mayim Acharonim so very wrong that (according to
MB 179:1) one who talked afterward, needs to wash again? And please note
that this is even more strict than Mayim Rishonim (according to MB 166:6),
for one who made a hefsek between washing and hamotzi does *not* need to
wash again (provided he did not take his mind off of keeping his hands
clean).
These details show me that Mayim Acharonim is about something more than
merely having clean hands. I don't know what this "something else" *is*,
but it seems very clear that there *is* something else.
Akiva Miller
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Message: 11
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 21:48:26 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] is mayim acharonim a chumra?
> One may not talk after Mayim Acharonim
True.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Actually this is very fuzzy
Talmud
Teikef lintilla bracha (iirc)
Since We ashkenazim are machmir on mayyim rishonim (source Rosh) therefore
why be machmir on acharonim, too?
Now Sephardim do apply this to mayyim Acharonim
But rambam says:
No hefsek implies - afilu lishtos mayyim (iirc)
Possible misunderstanding:
This is a case where hefsek has been either chumraized or misperceived to
mean "no talking". But it seems more likely to mean no more eating. Nor
any other distractions
The idea of no talking seems to be a "davening concept" applied to seudah.
Related Brisker analysis:
There are zvei dinnim in hefsek
By davening it is dibbur that is what one does by davening
By seudah it is eating or shinuy maqom etc.
But of course aside from maybe the Rambam no one I know agrees with this.
OTOH some siddurim do allow some baqqashos after mayyim acharonim.
[Email #2 -mi]
Akiva:
> Are these writers really talking about Mayim Acharonim, or are they
> talking about something else?
How about al neqqiyus yadayin in the morning in lieu of neigel vasser?
[Email #3 -mi]
> Look in the Mishna Berura 181:24. Afilu bedivrei Torah does not mean no
> more eating. It means no talking
> Gershon
> gershon.du...@juno.com
Ein hachi nami
Look at my post
The olam does not agree with me and I even stated that! But this is aisi
the simple peshat; hefsek as in seudah not as in dibbur
Mah nafshach
If the gmara means no hefseik before hamotzi then there is no reason to
not talk before mayyim acharonim
Sephardim talk freely after the first netillas yadayim! It is the Rosh
who requires silence after mayyim rishonim.
Plus the rambam says something like afilu ein lishtos mayyim! He holds
no hefsek is re: acharonim and nevertheless does not talk about talking!
Why not?
We Ashkenazim who hold no hefsek is about rishonim makes no sense to be
that machmir
-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
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Message: 12
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 02:21:30 EDT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
Prof. Levine wrote:
> This morning someone in shul pointed out to me that the Or HaChaim
> writes about Yaakov learning to cook.
From: Zev Sero _zev@sero.name_ (mailto:z...@sero.name)
>>The OHC doesn't say anything about his learning to cook. What it
says is that he decided that since Yitzchak loved Esav, Esav must be
doing something right and he should copy him, so he decided to cook
food as Esav did.
In any event, we see that his culinary skill wasn't so great, because
he only essayed a simple pot of lentils; when it came to cooking goat
"mat'ammim" he relied on his mother.<<
>>>>>>
When the angels came to Avraham he had Sarah bake cake and had "the na'ar"
-- Yishmael -- cook the meat. Ber. 18:6-8
--Toby Katz
=============
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Message: 13
From: y...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 09:35:10 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
See Yevomos 63a on "Eizer Kinegdoi".
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
-----Original Message-----
From: T6...@aol.com
To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
Sent: Tue, 12 May 2009 2:21 am
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
?
?
?
Prof. Levine wrote:
> This morning someone in shul pointed out to me that the Or HaChaim
> writes about Yaakov learning to cook.
From: Zev Sero z...@sero.name
?
>>The OHC doesn't say anything about his learning to cook.? What it
says is that he decided that since Yitzchak loved Esav, Esav must be
doing something right and he should copy him, so he decided to cook
food as Esav did.
In any event, we see that his culinary skill wasn't so great, because
he only essayed a simple pot of lentils; when it came to cooking goat
"mat'ammim" he relied on his mother.<<
?
?
>>>>>>
?
When the angels came to Avraham he had Sarah bake cake and had "the na'ar" -- Yishmael -- cook?the meat.? Ber. 18:6-8
?
--Toby Katz
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Message: 14
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 13:07:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Boys Being Taught How to Cook
T6...@aol.com wrote:
> When the angels came to Avraham he had Sarah bake cake and had "the
> na'ar" -- Yishmael -- cook the meat. Ber. 18:6-8
1. I had understood it to mean that Yishmael was to shecht the calves.
In the next pasuk it implies that Avraham "asah" ("tiken") each calf
and served it as soon as it was done.
2. If your reading is correct, then it shows that Yishmael and Esav
were cooks. But Yaacov Ish Tam was a yeshivah bochur and never learned
how. When he thought that perhaps Esav's derech had something going
for it -- after all, his father seemed to like it -- he tried his hand
at cooking something simple. "How hard can it be to cook lentils?", he
must have thought. "Put them in a pot with some water, put it on the
fire, and go back to the gemara." (There is a children's book about
my great-great-uncle Mendel Deitch trying to cook "porridge", which
drags this premise out for 20 illustrated pages or so.)
But when he needed to turn a pair of raw goats into "mat'amim", that
was a job for his mother.
--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people?s money
- Margaret Thatcher
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Message: 15
From: "M Cohen" <mco...@touchlogic.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 08:37:31 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Washing after Eating
RIB writes ..there is certainly no difference between men and women in
regard to Mayim Achronim.
fyi
I had two temani couples as shabbos guests.
I noticed that it was pashut to them that the women had to wash mayim
achronim just like the men did.
mordechai cohen
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