Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 66

Tue, 14 Apr 2009

• 1. Re: Kitniyos and Potatoes (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Karpas/Davar shetivulo bemashkeh (Micha Berger)
• 3. Challah on Pesach (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Eating Matza for 7 Days (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: Challah on Pesach (David Riceman)
• 6. Re: Kitniyos and Potatoes (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: Karpas/Davar shetivulo bemashkeh (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Challah on Pesach (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Karpas/Davar shetivulo bemashkeh (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: Karpas/Davar shetivulo bemashkeh (Zev Sero)
• 11. karpas (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: Eating Matza for 7 Days (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Eating Matza for 7 Days (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Gebrochts (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: running a seder (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 16. Re: Kitniyos and Potatoes (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 17. Shemiras Halashon - A Quick Review and a Proposal (Richard Wolpoe)
• 18. Re: Karpas/Davar shetivulo bemashkeh (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 19. Re: Eating Matza for 7 Days (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 20. Re: Gebrochts (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

Richard Wolpoe wrote:

> There are many reasons given for gzeria on  qitniyyos
>    1. Since they grow near grain, therefore they migh have dagan mixed in
>    AFAIK not applicable to potatoes
>    2. They produce "flour"  Potato starch could be a problem

The main reason brought is that they are cooked as a porridge (daysa,
kashe) like grains.  This wouldn't apply to potatoes.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 04:39:06PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: No, it's to avoid the bracha achrona, so that the ha'adamah can apply
: also to the maror, which is not part of the meal, and so is not covered
: by the hamotzi.

If your maggid takes less than 72 minutes. No?

I was asked about that at the seder... How come marror is covered by
the first berachah, but the kos yayin after maggid isn't?

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 4th day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Chesed: When is Chesed an
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           imposition on others?

Say someone is baking matzah on YT. You can't burn qodshim, so the
usual ruling for baking bread is lehafrish challah and put it aside for
burning later. But what do you do on Pesach? You can't just leave the
dough laying around.

(Perhaps soemone with "old world" Sepharadi parents/in-laws knows?)

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 4th day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Chesed: When is Chesed an
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           imposition on others?

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>wrote:
> The Vilna Gaon paskens based on "shivat yamim tochal matzot" that there is
> a mitzvah to actually eat matza all the days of Pesach....

This actually is contrary to the Sifrei on Sheishes yamim tochal matzos
[re'ei qria for last day of Passover] namely that davar sheyatza min haklal
.... I beleive the Bavli uses same drasha to say we are pattur. The ONLY
mitzva/Chiyyuv is bo'erve toch'lu matzos.
-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/

Micha Berger wrote:
> Say someone is baking matzah on YT. You can't burn qodshim, so the
> usual ruling for baking bread is lehafrish challah and put it aside for
> burning later. But what do you do on Pesach? You can't just leave the
> dough laying around.
>   
It's an explicit Mishna (Pesahim 3:3).

David Riceman

 

Richard Wolpoe wrote:

> There are many reasons given for gzeria on  qitniyyos
>    1. Since they grow near grain, therefore they migh have dagan mixed
in
>    AFAIK not applicable to potatoes
>    2. They produce "flour"  Potato starch could be a problem

The main reason brought is that they are cooked as a porridge (daysa,
kashe) like grains.  This wouldn't apply to potatoes.


-- 
Zev Sero
==========================
R' Belsky on the recent OU webcast (more detail will be forthcoming on
my next hirhurim audio roundup) said that potatoes are a large vegetable
not at all grainlike and that's why they didn't make the cut.
CKVS
Joel Rich
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Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 04:39:06PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : No, it's to avoid the bracha achrona, so that the ha'adamah can apply
> : also to the maror, which is not part of the meal, and so is not covered
> : by the hamotzi.
> 
> If your maggid takes less than 72 minutes. No?

I don't see why.  You're focused on the matzah and maror the whole time
so why should the bracha expire?

 
> I was asked about that at the seder... How come marror is covered by
> the first berachah, but the kos yayin after maggid isn't?

Who says it wouldn't be, mitzad birchot hanehenin?  It's permitted
to drink between the first two cups; that includes right before the
second cup, and that drink would be covered by the hagafen of kiddush.
And Sefardim *don't* say brachot on the second and fourth cups (SA 474).
We Ashkenazim say a bracha on each cup, not because of hefsek, but
because each one is a separate mitzvah and a separate derech cherus
(MA 474).


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Micha Berger wrote:
> Say someone is baking matzah on YT. You can't burn qodshim, so the
> usual ruling for baking bread is lehafrish challah and put it aside for
> burning later. But what do you do on Pesach? You can't just leave the
> dough laying around.

Bake it.  Or better still, do what's usually done with matzah, even
before Pesach: finish all your baking, put all the matzos in one pile
and take chalah for the whole batch.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

> As I posted earlier, those who eat less than a kzayis - AIUI- do so
> davka to avoid the s'feik bracha on washing.

Zev:
> No, it's to avoid the bracha achrona, so that the ha'adamah can apply
> also to the maror, which is not part of the meal, and so is not covered
> by the hamotzi.

Rambam
Hilchos hametz
8:1-2

Afterwords one recites al netilas yadayim and washes one' hands..

He begins and recites the blessing borei pri ho'adamah takes the vegetable
dips it in charoset and eats a kezayis

Each and everyone do not eat less than a kazayis,,,"

Rambam is stating since one is washing with a bracha therefore one MUST
eat no less than a k'zayis.

Conversely we do not make a bracha and therefore would be entering into
the realm of s'feik bracha would we consume a k'zayis

In order to be mistaleiq min hasafeiq we avoid a k'zayis.

Since even the Rambam omits bracha acharona DESPITE having a K'zayis
ergo he is not concerned about this issue.

Thus at least one factor if not THE factor is avoiding a safeik.
QED

Gutn Mo'ed
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> As I posted earlier, those who eat less than a kzayis - AIUI- do so
>>> davka to avoid the s'feik bracha on washing.

> Zev:
>> No, it's to avoid the bracha achrona, so that the ha'adamah can apply
>> also to the maror, which is not part of the meal, and so is not covered
>> by the hamotzi.

> Rambam Hilchos hametz 8:1-2
> 
> Afterwords one recites al netilas yadayim and washes one' hands..
> He begins and recites the blessing borei pri ho'adamah takes the vegetable
> dips it in charoset and eats a kezayis
> Each and everyone do not eat less than a kazayis,,,"
> 
> Rambam is stating since one is washing with a bracha therefore one MUST
> eat no less than a k'zayis.

Where are you getting that from?  It's certainly not in the Rambam.
The Rambam doesn't say why one should eat a kezayit of the vegetable,
but bepashtus the reason would be that he considers eating it part
of the mitzvah of the night, so it must be an achila.  Where do you
get the idea that a shiur of kezayit makes any difference to the
washing?  That's certainly not the case with bread, where the shiur
to make a bracha is a kebeitza, not a kezayit.



> Conversely we do not make a bracha and therefore would be entering into
> the realm of s'feik bracha would we consume a k'zayis

Again, why would a kezayis do that?  And how would that sfek bracha
be any different than whenever we eat a shiur of tibulei bemashkeh?
Does it say anywhere to avoid eating a shiur so as not to have to
rely on safek brachot lehakel?


> Since even the Rambam omits bracha acharona DESPITE having a K'zayis
> ergo he is not concerned about this issue.

He doesn't mention a bracha achrona after the fourth cup either, but
obviously one makes one.  Perhaps he doesn't mention it because it
needn't be said then; one may eat and drink during the hagadah, in
which case he bracha achrona would be said before washing.  Similarly,
since one may drink water after the seder, perhaps that's why he
doesn't mention the al hagafen; if one intends to drink water then
one wouldn't say it until afterwards.



-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

<<> As I posted earlier, those who eat less than a kzayis - AIUI- do so
> davka to avoid the s'feik bracha on washing.

No, it's to avoid the bracha achrona, so that the ha'adamah can apply
also to the maror, which is not part of the meal, and so is not covered
by the hamotzi.>>

If the problem is beracha achrona then it doesnt help as 72 minutes have
usually passed between karpas and maror. The problem is the berachah
rishona on the maror which as Zev says may not be covered by the HaMotzi.
The beracha rishona lasts for more than 72 minutes


-- 
Eli Turkel

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 06:08:55PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: This actually is contrary to the Sifrei on Sheishes yamim tochal matzos
: [re'ei qria for last day of Passover] namely that davar sheyatza min haklal
: .... I beleive the Bavli uses same drasha to say we are pattur. The ONLY
: mitzva/Chiyyuv is bo'erve toch'lu matzos.

I think the disconnect is in your identefication of mitzvas asei
with chiyuv. Most hold that the rest of Pesach only holds an issur of
chameitz. The Gra (daas yachid?) holds there is a qiyum asei in eating
matzah. Qiyumis, not chiyuvis.

I think that via g"sh tes-vav - tes-vav this ties to his shitah that one
makes a berakhah every time one uses the Sukkah, even achilas o shinas
arai. Again, because he adds a mitzvah qiyumis that is being fulfilled
even though there is no issur in doing these things at home.

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 5th day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Chesed: What kinds of Chesed take
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       away my independence?

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 11:47:24AM -0700, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: I was discussing this idea over Yom Tov wondering why Hashem would want
: this. It seems to me that once we have finished the seder and transitioned
: from Avdut to Cheirut, that having actually eating Lechem Oni shouldn't be a
: mitzva.
: An answer that came up was that while yes, we were freed from Mitzrayim at
: the beginning of Pesach, until Kriyat Yam Suf, we were still effectively
: slaves as we had the ability to turn around at any moment and go back. Only
: once we finally crossed over the ocean and reached the true point of trust
: in Hashem ("Vayaaminu ba'Hashem...") could we truly be considered free.
: Has anyone heard any other answers for this?

I'm not sure why it requires an asei to raise the question. Why the
issur chameitz after day 1 (& 2 in chu"l)?

It's not the physical barrier. Particular since there are shitos that
have the path of qeri'as Yam Suf as an arc, ending on the same side as
they began. Perhaps it was the psychological effect of seeing their
masters meis al sefas hayam.

BTW, it goes beyond emunah. Vayar Yisrael.... vayir'u ha'am es Hashem.
See Be'Iqvos haYir'ah pg 14 (<http://www.aishdas.org/raek/yirah.pdf> pg
6). RAEK's discussion of QYS begins in par 3, but you need the context
of the essay to understand what he's getting at. "Ra'asah shifchah al
hayam mah shelo ra'ah Yechezqeil" -- "mikan yir'as haRomemus shehi
re'iyas haRomemus."

Not that yir'ah is necessarily beyond emunah (although it strikes me
that it would -- you have to believe something exists before you can
be overawed by it). Just meant that the two together is more than
vayaaminu alone.

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 5th day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Chesed: What kinds of Chesed take
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       away my independence?

On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 06:16:12AM -0400, Yitzchok Levine wrote:
: The gemara in Pesachim 41a discusses the *machloket* between R. Meir and
: R. Yossi whether one fulfills the mitzva of matza (Seder) if the matza
: is soaked in water. The RIF there...
: Rabbenu Manoach (on Rambam Hilchot Chametz U'Matza 6:6) agrees with the
: RIF that one cannot soak matza in wine (but does permit water)...
: The Maharil (brought in the BACH on the TUR Orach Chaim 461) agrees (soaked
: in water OK, but not in soup that would overpower the taste). The Magen
: Avraham there (OC 461) even feels that the Mechaber would even allow
: matza soaked in wine ! The TUR OC 461 and Mechaber OC 461 agree with
: the RIF and Rambam (that matza soaked in water is OK).

: Then how did this minhag ta'ut originate ...

How does any of the above make the minhag a ta'us? Every minhag has
precedent before its inception in which people didn't follow it.

As RRW and I debated before, I would limit the concept of "minhag ta'us"
to minhagim that actually violate halakhah. Not even ones built on false
assuptions. (But here we don't even have that.)

: It was only much later (Shulchan Aruch Harav) who thought that perhaps
: the reason would have been because matza made then was MUCH thicker
: than it is today and perhaps some unbaked dough would become chametz
: if mixed with water. But this reasoning was knocked down by the Shaarei
: Teshuva (Orach Chaim 460:10) since in the past 150 years, matza is made
: thin.

Because of the very same change in process the SAhR is discussing!

It would seem that rather than "knocked down", the question is whether
the switch to quickly made thin crackers was more of a cause for gebrochts
(quickly made) or less (thin). The SAhR also considers gebrochts to be a
relatively new custom in his day (less than 2 generations) and subsequent
to the change in baking style.

Thanks to RSZ, who cited this SAhR in a discussion some years back about
how long ago Ashkenazim started exclusively making crispy matzos. (I
would think there must have been some mesorah beforehand, as I I can't
picture people suddenly being meiqil on fulfilling the mitzvah with
something that has a hava amina of being pas haba beqisnin.)

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 5th day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Chesed: What kinds of Chesed take
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       away my independence?

On the question of
> Is this how a free man eats? Matzah maror and soup?
R' Eli Turkel wrote:
> Bottom line there is no connection between slavery and eating
> well it is the festival of freedom and not the festival of
> prosperity

I'd like to cite from my notes from a shiur given by Rav Nachman Bulman at Ohr Somayach in Yerushalayim in 1976:

"Cheirus is *not* freedom, but rather aristocracy. The aristocrat is *not*
totally free. On the contrary - his life is quite structured. Not
*restricted*, but rather *structured*. An aristocrat does not have to
listen to a slavemaster. He is above all that. He takes orders, but his
orders come straight from the King - and the King has special tasks for His
princes."

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Earn a degree in Criminal Justice and work as a Police officer.  Click here for more info.
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R' Micha Berger wrote:
> Personally, I think the notion of considering corn syrup to
> be mei qitniyos is simply adding insult to injury. It's so
> far removed from the original minhag, which itself is pretty
> hard to explain...

Sometimes (not on Shabbos or Yom Tov!) I will squeeze a peanut with my
fingernail, and I can see and feel the oil that I've extracted. I have no
personal knowledge of the methods by which corn syrup is made, but the
authors below seem to feel that this is NOT the method by which oil is
extracted from corn. (Hmmm... Is it possible that there is some confusion
over corn syrup vs. corn oil? Anyway...)

Rabbi Tzvi Rosen, Star-K Kashrus Administrator writes (at http://www.s
tar-k.org/kashrus/kk-passover-kitniyos.htm):

> Corn syrup is made through a conversion process, where the
> white starchy meat of the corn kernel is converted into
> sugar. ... What is of great halachic consequence is the
> halachic perception of these ?corn converted? products.
> Since the final product is in liquid form, it was, and
> still is, considered to be shemen kitniyos by some
> authorities. Other Poskim posit that there is an intrinsic
> difference between classical shemen kitniyos, i.e. oil
> that is pressed out of the kernel, and a liquid converted
> from the actual kernel. The liquid is not shemen kitniyos,
> it is actual kitniyos.

Similarly, Rabbi Zushe Yosef Blech wrote in the April 2002 issue of Kashrus
Magazine (online at http://www.kashrut.co
m/Passover/KnowThyBeans/):

> Although we noted that some allow the use of oil from
> Kitniyos, most authorities agree that corn syrup has the
> same Halachic status as the Kitniyos cornstarch itself rather
> than that of the oil expressed from it.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Stuck in a dead end job?? Click to start living your dreams by earning an online degree.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL21
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Shmiras Halashon deserves a longer review, but on Chol Hamo'ed I'll be
briefer :-)

The sefer Shmiras Halashon is a tremendous compendium of machshava on
why NOT to speak lashon hora, motziva sheim ra, and rechilus. Many may
criticise it as "over-the-top" but when taking in small daily chunks
as recommended by the limud yomi it makes a profound impact upon one's
Machshava

I would likve to divert attention from the MAIN and most obviosu thrust
of the work to two "fringe benefits" that imho make this Sefer a real
ptreasure and a pardigm.

Treasure: Aside from the mussar and preaching against gossip, etc. I found
the author's Call for Ahavas Yisroel even MORE compelling. It is really
difficult to be 100% vigilallant in our speech yomam volayla. However,
we CAN turn our hearts around and learn to love our fellow Jew and to give
him/her the benfit of the doubt "betzedek tishpot amisecha" As such this
work's exhortations to love each other strikes a resonatn chord with me

Paradigm: This sefer is a treasury of Aggadah, Midrash, and Zohar
on its topic. Bialik's Sefar Ha'Aggadah attempted to do the same
for a number of subjects. However, it is quite limitted in depth.
The Shimras Halashon is a re-arrangement nad a re-sequening of classic
Midrashic style texts the way the Mishneh Torah anbd Shulchan Aruch is
a reqsquencing or Talmudic and Halachic Texts.

I would therefore love to see more sefarrim based upon this model
addressing different topics. The number of topcis is nearly infinte
but here are some


   1. Iyyun Tefillah
   2. Chaggim
   3. Business ethtics [eg Moznei Tzedekf fari treatment of customers]
   4. Managment Ethics [lo sallin fair treatment of employees]
   5. Bikku Cholim
   6. Nichum Aveilim

Just to name a few. And the Halachos need not be repeated. The ikkar
goal would be to produce a systematic, and topcial compendium of Aggadah,
Midrash and Zohar in the same mold as the Shemiras Halashon, only the
topics would differ

The Sefer Mishnah Brurah has set a paradigm in designing modern Halachic
comentaries [e.g. Badei Hashulchan] The Shmiras Halashon could do the
same for machshava

GM

-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nishma-Minhag/

> He doesn't mention a bracha achrona after the fourth cup either, but
> obviously one makes one.  Perhaps he doesn't mention it because it
> needn't be said then; one may eat and drink during the hagadah, in
> which case he bracha achrona would be said before washing.  Similarly,
> since one may drink water after the seder, perhaps that's why he
> doesn't mention the al hagafen; if one intends to drink water then
> one wouldn't say it until afterwards.
Zev Sero

Some nos'ei keilim note the omission of borei nefashos as indicative
that Ramban holds no bracha acharona on karpas despite kezayis.

---------------------


an article on the seder

If not, then consider it my hiddush.

I am not denying that there may be other reasons to eat less than a
kzayis karpas, I am adding that this avoids a sfeik bracha on washing

Of course SA says s'feik bracha all year round due to tosafos. But aisi
this minhag is oldr then SA's psaq and I think we are retrofitting our
halachah back to an older minhag.

By avoiding kezayis even the Rambam would not make a bracha on washin
on karpas AISI

Gutn Mo-ed
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: This actually is contrary to the Sifrei on Sheishes yamim tochal matzos
: [re'ei qria for last day of Passover] namely that davar sheyatza min haklal
: .... I beleive the Bavli uses same drasha to say we are pattur. The ONLY
: mitzva/Chiyyuv is bo'erve toch'lu matzos.

Micha:
> I think the disconnect is in your identefication of mitzvas asei
> with chiyuv. Most hold that the rest of Pesach only holds an issur of
> chameitz. The Gra (daas yachid?) holds there is a qiyum asei in eating
> matzah. Qiyumis, not chiyuvis.

I get that. The svara is nice but the texts seem to contradict it! The
conclusion is that the ONLY asei (kiyyumis or chiyuvis) is bo'erev
to'chlu matzos. See sefer hamtizvos, hinuch etc.

The mashma'us AIUI is not that the hiyyuv is reduced to kiyyum but to
reshus b'alma and an issur asei for eating hametz. This GRA aisi is
tzarich iyyun it's a total hiddush

GM
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Micha
> Thanks to RSZ, who cited this SAhR in a discussion some years back about
> how long ago Ashkenazim started exclusively making crispy matzos. (I
> would think there must have been some mesorah beforehand, as I I can't
> picture people suddenly being meiqil on fulfilling the mitzvah with
> something that has a hava amina of being pas haba beqisnin.)

Micha did a great job on a long, deep topic. Hilchos hametz umatza is
as involved as anything in yore dei''ah!

Just some parparos:
Rambam uses term "rekik" which implies wafer. See vayikra and tzav that
has 3 kinds of matzos and I am guessing that rekik is the thinnest. (Also
l'havdil the Catholic wafer is thin enough to see thru and lichora is
based upon ancient matza.)

Rema says tefach is max thickness.

AISI, since we are machmir to have thin crispy matza, we can afford to
be meikil about the cheshash of unbaked sections. Otoh would we change
and be meiklil and restore thick matzos we would need to restore the
cheshash of not being baked thoroughly. A humra-kula see-saw if you will.

AISI with our matzos there is no need to be chosheish for gebroktz
BUT
The cheshash could exist if matzos were kosher but thicker.

Tangentially, the Rosh says we don't need to be chosheish for hametz in
certain crevices because yisroel am kedoshim... So that our chumros in
cleaning allow certain kullos about hazzakos Of hametz.

Humros at the outset that remove sfeikos (histaleik min hasafeik) can
actually make life easier in the long run on the back end. EG growing
bug free produce..

Gutn Mo-ed
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 66
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