Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 64

Wed, 08 Apr 2009

• 1. Re: running a seder (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 2. Leining and Transitive Verbs (Joshua Meisner)
• 3. Gebrochts (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Gebrochts (Chaim G Steinmetz)
• 5. Re: running a seder (Daniel Israel)
• 6. Re: running a seder (Joshua Meisner)
• 7. Re: running a seder (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 8. Re: running a seder (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: Gebrochts (menucha)
• 10. Re: running a seder (Daniel Israel)
• 11. Re: running a seder (David Riceman)
• 12. Re: running a seder (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 13. Re: running a seder (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. Re: Leining and Transitive Verbs (Stuart Feldhamer)
• 15. Re: driving/taxi on chol hamoed (Akiva Blum)
• 16. women at a funeral (Eli Turkel)
• 17. Re: Rain as a siman Klalah? (Michael Kopinsky)
• 18. seder (Eli Turkel)
• 19. Re: Rain as a siman Klalah? (Ira Tick)

Micha:
"m attaching the seider of the seder, as seen IMHO. I think the only
controversial point is that it requires moving Ha Lachma Anya from the
beginning of Magid to being the explanation of Yachatz. That allows (1)
a grouping of the 15 steps of the seder based on when we refill the kosos,
and (2) opening Maggid with questions, not a declaration.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha"

The ikkar of arousing curiosity comes before mah nishtanah.  As AhS and
doniel goldschmidt note mah nistanah are not questions about what has
happened but an intro to what will happen

Rishonim had the leader saying mah nishtaneh.  The acharonim changed it to
the kids probably because they mis-construesd the meaning of the printed
Talmud (see Goldschmidt for details and 
Also See rambam that leader says mah nishtana and the artscroll mishnayos on arvei Pesachim)
After seeing  Toesfta to arvei pesachim
Roughly 10 yrs. Ago -  I wondered:. How can a ba'al habbayis say arami oveid avi and be incapable of saying Hallel!? 

The answer came in a shabbos hagadol drasha

Q:  Why was arami chosen over more complete passages in shmos re: Exodus? 

A: Because every am ho'oretz was literate enough for vidduy bikkurim!  And thereofre it was a passage known by all as opposed to parshas bo.

This explains the ability to say arami and still not be able to say Hallel which was my question.

Anyway consultation with haggados such as Kasher's haggadah shlaeima as
well as the aforementioned Goldschmidt will answer many questions and clear
up misperceptions.

Zissen Pesach
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

A couple of months back, I got into a leining dispute centered over Shmos
10:17.  The ba'al kri'ah, who did not distinguish between patach and komatz,
read "sa na chaTAsi ach ha-pa'am", instead of "sa na chataSI ach ha-pa'am".
I argued that the phrase required correction, as the ba'al kri'ah read
"Please bear/forgive; I have sinned this time", rather than "Please forgive
my sin, this time", while another mispaleil argued that since "sa" is a
transitive verb that must carry an object, the effective reading that I
suggested was impossible, so that the ba'al kri'ah's reading was merely
sloppy, and did not change the meaning of the passuk.  (He also argued that
the ba'al kri'ah wasn't such a skilled leiner, so deserved more leeway, but
that strikes me as being a more dubious argument.)

(Neither of us noted the fact that the te'amim could serve as further
evidence of the meaning of the passuk, in that the tertiary mafsik is on the
word chatasi, but even if this is a mitigating factor, let's assume that the
ba'al kri'ah did not sufficiently distinguish between low-level mafsikim and
m'sharsim, either - which may very well have been the case, although I don't
recall offhand.)

Thoughts?

Joshua Meisner
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At 03:14 PM 4/7/2009, Reb Chaim G. Steinmetz wrote:
>
>  a truly idiotic svara for gebrochts is brought- and refuted- in the
>  Shaarei Teshuva OC460, a woman who saw her neighbor making matza
>  meal  pancakes (sufganin) and thought that it was ok to make regular
>flour
>  pancakes on pesach.and did so....
>   menucha
>
>---------------
>Is it more "idiotic" than what was posted today by someone on Areivim
>that "If one is looking for chumrot I have a better idea. I just read
>that RSZA
>didnt use potato flour because it is too similar to wheat flour. "?
>
>In fact, such a chumrah is already brought from the Rishonim as a chumrah
>of "Balei Nefesh" (the Raavyoh), for the identical reason.
>CGS

Reb Chaim,

I must be misreading what you wrote in your last sentence.

The potato was not introduced to Europe until 1536 ( 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato ), which is after the time of the 
Rishonim. "Rishonim were the leading 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi>Rabbis and 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posek>Poskim who lived approximately 
during the 11th to 15th centuries."
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishonim )  How could the Rishonim 
bring a chumrah about something that they could not have known about?

YL


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David Riceman <drice...@att.net> writes
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts

The Raavyah (d. 1225) predated the introduction of potatoes to the 
Eastern hemisphere (16th century).
 
David Riceman
------------------------
That is, of course, correct . I was unclear (it is, after all, Erev
Pesach...).
The Raavyoh brings a chumrah of Balei Nefesh, who apparantly feared that
if one is matir cooked matzoh (I assume that is what he means by
"farfil"), one will make something from flour (similar to what the Raavan
brings).
My comment was directed at menucha's comment callong such an idea
"idiotic". I merely should that Rishonim already bring a similar idea,
and refer to it as a chumra of Balei Nefesh. [Of course, the reason of
the Baal Hatanya is totally different). 
My reference to RSZA was to show even a bigger chiddush (which I doubt
one would label "idiotic").
CGS
 
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On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:51:23 -0600 rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
>Micha:
>"m attaching the seider of the seder, as seen IMHO. I think the 
only
>controversial point is that it requires moving Ha Lachma Anya from 
the
>beginning of Magid to being the explanation of Yachatz. That 
allows (1)
>a grouping of the 15 steps of the seder based on when we refill 
the kosos,
>and (2) opening Maggid with questions, not a declaration.
>
>The ikkar of arousing curiosity comes before mah nishtanah.  As 
>AhS and doniel goldschmidt note mah nistanah are not questions 
>about what has happened but an intro to what will happen
>
>Rishonim had the leader saying mah nishtaneh.  The acharonim 
>changed it to the kids probably because they mis-construesd the 
>meaning of the printed Talmud 

I am very uncomfortable with any teretz that involves the achronim 
all misreading a Gemara.  A simpler pshat, I think, is that by the 
time the child is old enough to ask, he has a basic memory of last 
years seder.  This is why ha lachma anya is enough to prompt the 
questions; the child says, "I remember doing something with matzah 
last year, and then we did all this other strange stuff."  Which 
would respond to Micha's objection.

In any case, we can't take the four questions as real questions of 
the child because there is a set text.  So they are, in a sense, 
symbolic.

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Q:  Why was arami chosen over more complete passages in shmos re: Exodus?
>
> A: Because every am ho'oretz was literate enough for vidduy bikkurim!  And
> thereofre it was a passage known by all as opposed to parshas bo.
>
> This explains the ability to say arami and still not be able to say Hallel
> which was my question.


I don't understand.  This seems to be contradicted by Bikkurim 3:7, which
says that the kohen would prompt everyone who brought bikkurim word by word,
in order to spare the feelings of those amei ha-aretz who did not know how
to read parshas bikkurim.

ChKv"S,

Joshua Meisner
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Josh:
" don't understand.? This seems to be contradicted by Bikkurim 3:7, which
says that the kohen would prompt everyone who brought bikkurim word by
word, in order to spare the feelings of those amei ha-aretz who did not
know how to read parshas bikkurim.ChKv"S,Joshua Meisner"

That taqqanah was much later.  Originally everyone read for themselves.

Then some read and some didn't

Then kohanim read for all.

The salient point was that the speaker in answering HIS own question dovetailed into answering my question which had bothered me for years.

As far as the corresponding sifrei goes it is pashut that it was committed to memory as best as they could

Zissen Pesach
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Daniel:
"
In any case, we can't take the four questions as real questions of 
the child because there is a set text.  So they are, in a sense, 
symbolic.

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu"

But the points are 
They are real 
And they are NOT questions at al!l rather they are a table of contents of coming attractions!

May I humbly suggest reading the sources quoted before jumping to any conclusions;
Viz.  Goldscmidt haggada
Aruch Hashulchan
Rambam's seder with any good peirush
Mishna arvei pesachim preferably with artscroll.

Afaik NO rishon sees these as questions from the children.

Zissen Pesach
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

I apologize for my phrasing.  The term idiotic referred to the 
unfortunate (perhaps a better word) woman's svara, that she could make 
sufganin out of flour because her neighbor made them out of matza meal.
chag sameach vekasher
menucha

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:38:35 -0600 rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
>Daniel:
>>In any case, we can't take the four questions as real questions 
of 
>>the child because there is a set text.  So they are, in a sense, 
>>symbolic.
>
>But the points are 
>They are real 
>And they are NOT questions at al!l rather they are a table of 
>contents of coming attractions!
>
>May I humbly suggest reading the sources quoted before jumping to 
>any conclusions;
>Viz.  Goldscmidt haggada
>Aruch Hashulchan
>Rambam's seder with any good peirush
>Mishna arvei pesachim preferably with artscroll.
>
>Afaik NO rishon sees these as questions from the children.

I'm happy to check the sources you mention, but I don't have access 
Goldschmidt's haggadah, which seems to be your primary source.  But 
in any case, WADR, I think you missed my point.  You cut my 
objection to your suggestion (or is it Goldschmidt's suggestion) 
that all the achronim misunderstood a Gemara, which was my real 
point.  Once we get beyond that, I think we agree that we can't 
understand these as real questions from the children, so what are 
they?  I'm not sure that what you are saying and what I am saying 
are that different.  (But I'm not sure, because without looking at 
your sources, I'm not 100% clear what you are saying.)

When you say no rishon sees these as questions from the children, 
do you mean that no rishon thinks the nusach should be recited by a 
child, or no rishon sees these as actual questions of the child?  
Because, clearly, scripted questions are not real questions, so I 
assume all the achronim also understood that even if the questions 
are put into the mouth of a child, one still has to answer why the 
haggadah scripts some questions, and particularly questions which 
raise so many questions.

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> Afaik NO rishon sees these as questions from the children.
>   
IIRC the Mordechai says that bizman habayis the meal was eaten first and 
the talking came later (as is the apparent order in the Mishna).  This 
leaves open the possibility that they could be asked spontaneously by 
children.

David Riceman

David:
"IIRC the Mordechai says that bizman habayis the meal was eaten first and 
the talking came later (as is the apparent order in the Mishna).  This 
leaves open the possibility that they could be asked spontaneously by 
children.

David Riceman"

Please Show me how that fits with the mishna (pesachim 10) as we have it?!

Anyway our mah nishtanah has been specifically modified for
Post-hurban use so if this is the case - it would swap one error for another viz. Using the mah nistanah in the wrong place!

ZP
RRW

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Daniel:
">>In any case, we can't take the four questions as real questions 
of 
>>the child because there is a set text.  So they are, in a sense, 
>>symbolic."

OK I have a LONG answer but I will divide and conquer!

The mishna states
The child asks
And if does not know to ask the father teaches him.

Quick peshat:
The father does the following
Karpas
Yachatz 
Kos Sheini

If the son is curious he asks

If the son fails to ask
THEN the father teaches the highlights of the upcoming seder

He does NOT TEACH the child to ask, because he would point out the past
curiosities NOT the future ones!  At this point the father is awakening the
NON-curious child with an intro.

See the gmara re: Abbaye.

At most the connection to questions would ne that:
the father would be pointing to the nonrespondent son what he should be asking LATER ON!  

There is zero expectation at THIS point that the child asks the 4
questions.  Rather the expectation is that he has asked mah nistanah
regarding what JUST transpired
Viz.: karpas yachatz kos sheini, plus handing out nuts wearing a kittel etc.

Or as my 2.5 year.old daughter asked me after kiddusg:  "where's the hallah?"

And if you are old ashkenaz In additon a child might  ask
"Why didn't we wash before qiddush?" 


ZP
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 

RJM:

A couple of months back, I got into a leining dispute centered over Shmos
10:17.  The ba'al kri'ah, who did not distinguish between patach and komatz,
read "sa na chaTAsi ach ha-pa'am", instead of "sa na chataSI ach ha-pa'am".
I argued that the phrase required correction, as the ba'al kri'ah read
"Please bear/forgive; I have sinned this time", rather than "Please forgive
my sin, this time", while another mispaleil argued that since "sa" is a
transitive verb that must carry an object, the effective reading that I
suggested was impossible, so that the ba'al kri'ah's reading was merely
sloppy, and did not change the meaning of the passuk.  (He also argued that
the ba'al kri'ah wasn't such a skilled leiner, so deserved more leeway, but
that strikes me as being a more dubious argument.)

 

If it helps, I think you are clearly right. What I especially don't
understand is that in the time that you had that argument, couldn't the baal
korei have gone back 10 times? (Maybe that discussion happened after the
fact?)

 

Stuart

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org 
> [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of 
> Shoshana L. Boublil
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:13 PM
> To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org; elitur...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] driving/taxi on chol hamoed
> 
> > Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 09:46:03 +0300
> > From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
> 
> > I have a cousin who is restrained to a wheel chair and is 
> very immobile.
> > His son-in-law in Yerushalayim refuses to take a taxi to 
> Netanya on chol
> > hamoed unless they find a "poor" taxi driver.
> 
> > Does anyone know about teshuvot on using taxis (Jewish) on 
> chol hamoed
> > including  bikur cholim and kibud av mitzvot
> >
> > -- 
> > Eli Turkel
> ==================================
> 
> This is one case where the question provides the answer - 
> there is no such 
> thing as a rich taxi driver.
> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Poor is defined as , he has not enough money for the chag now. Not just that his
parnosa is not so great.

Shmiras Shabbos address the heter for taxis and buses during chol hamoed. From
what I recall, RSZA says that it' zhorech rabim.

Akiva

<<Not if it's a sakanah.  You don't compromise on safety rules just to
make someone feel good.>>

There is no physical sakanat nefashot. Just a "segula" type - I doubt if
one could be mechallel shabbat because the devil is dancing

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>wrote:

> Does anyone have any Mekoros as 2 rain being a possible Siman Klala on
>> birchas Hachama as it says re rain in the sukka??
>
>
> Liron:
> It is my understanding that there are Rishonim who hold that you can say
> the bracha for Birchat Hachama without even seeing the sun. While we don't
> pasken like that today, it seems to me that there can't be a mesorah for it
> being a siman klalah if that psak could exist.
>

Do you have any sources for this? I haven't learned the sugya at all, but it
seems a bit crazy to me. Why should this be any different from, say, kiddush
levana? (And yes, I could present sevaros to be mechalek, but I would like
to see some sources, if you can get hold of them.

KT,
Michael
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<<If the main part is the questions and answers, wouldn't the centerpiece
be Mah Nishtanah and the answers to that question? That gets us to the
machloqes Rav and Shemu'el as to whether the maschilim begenus umsaymim
beshevach is "avadim hayinu" (Shemu'el) or "bit-chilah ovedei AZ" (Rav).
And according to Rabban Gamliel, the centerpiece would be a third piece
of Maggid. >>

Apologies for any confusion. The rabbi from Shilo was certainly not
advocating skipping
part of the haggadah. What he wanted was to avoid a simple reading of
the haggadah and rushing to
the meal which he claims happens in too many homes.

Hence, he advocated the children eating a lot of potato for karpas to
fill their stomachs.
(In general (my opinion) I dont understand the gemara about not having
a meal in the
late afternoon so as not to fill up.
At least in modern circles and especially with daylight savings time
the problem is
more that people are starving rather than being too filled)

Hecne, the rabbs insistence on doing things that will keep the
children';s interest
in addition to the haggadah, e.g skits, questions with candy rewards.
Many achronim insist that many parts of the seder are to interest the children.
The problem is that after doing the same thing every year these acts themselves
become ritual and no longer stir any questions


-- 
Eli Turkel

I was told by Rabbi Heschel Weiner of Chicago, Illinois that the
opinions allowing Birchat HaChama to be said even when the sun is not
visible rely on the fact that the beracha is recited upon noting the
sun's return to its "proper place" and not its appearance.  However,
if Kiddush Levana is recited upon noting the waxing of the moon
towards its "full strength," we should also dismiss visibility as a
factor.  Perhaps there are opinions that allow Kiddush Levana to be
said when the moon is hidden, for this very reason.

Thankfully, I was able to recite the beracha this morning and show my
appreciation of G-d's handiwork without difficulty, as the sky was
nice and clear by the Milwaukee lakefront.

Tizku L'Mitzvot and a most joyful and kosher Pesach!

IJT

-- 
Ira Tick
6519 N Whipple
Chicago, IL 60645
(414) 699-8285

itick1...@gmail.com
it...@iit.edu


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