Volume 26: Number 62
Mon, 6 Apr 2009
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 13:07:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] birchat hachama
On 03/04/2009, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually one can make the berachat ha-ilanot after nissan just that =
normally
> there are no blossoms later in the year. In the southern henisphere =
one would
> say it in Tishre.
I am not aware of anyone in Australia who says Birkat Ilanot. And the
reason, as
far as I know, is because it must be said "biymei nissan", and at that
time there
are no blossoming fruit trees.
--=20
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:16:12 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Gebrochts
Dr. Josh Backon sent me the message below about Gebrokts. My=20
understanding is that anyone who presently does not eat gebrokts can=20
be mattir nedder and then eat gebrokts. YL :-)
The gemara in Pesachim 41a discusses the *machloket* between R. Meir and
R. Yossi whether one fulfills the mitzva of matza (Seder) if the matza
is soaked in water. The RIF there rules like R. Yossi (that one can't =
use
boiled matza) since the boiling detracts from the taste of the matza
but he permits matza soaked in water.
Rabbenu Manoach (on Rambam Hilchot Chametz U'Matza 6:6) agrees with the
RIF that one cannot soak matza in wine (but does permit water) since it =
would
overpower the taste of the Matzah.
The Maharil (brought in the BACH on the TUR Orach Chaim 461) agrees =
(soaked
in water OK, but not in soup that would overpower the taste). The Magen
Avraham there (OC 461) even feels that the Mechaber would even allow
matza soaked in wine ! The TUR OC 461 and Mechaber OC 461 agree with
the RIF and Rambam (that matza soaked in water is OK).
Then how did this minhag ta'ut originate ?? The RAAVAN (Pesachim 39a)
mentions a 12th century custom where people would refrain (rightfully)
from soaking the matza (for the seder) in wine or soup. But this was
NOT because it would become chametz but because one couldn't fulfill
one's obligation with soaked matza. Only these ignorami thought it was
because soaking matza would make it chametz !
It was only much later (Shulchan Aruch Harav) who thought that perhaps
the reason would have been because matza made then was MUCH thicker
than it is today and perhaps some unbaked dough would become chametz
if mixed with water. But this reasoning was knocked down by the Shaarei
Teshuva (Orach Chaim 460:10) since in the past 150 years, matza is made
thin.
So go and enjoy the kneidlach!
Josh
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Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:30:45 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] biur sheviit
A reminder to the Israeli checra that besides getting ready for Pesach =
and
birchat hachamma one also needs to make any otzar bet din wines or
grape juices hefker in front of 3 people before Pesach
--=20
Eli Turkel
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 09:46:03 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] driving/taxi on chol hamoed
I have a cousin who is restrained to a wheel chair and is very immobile.
His son-in-law in Yerushalayim refuses to take a taxi to Netanya on chol
hamoed unless they find a "poor" taxi driver.
Does anyone know about teshuvot on using taxis (Jewish) on chol hamoed
including bikur cholim and kibud av mitzvot
--=20
Eli Turkel
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 12:47:51 GMT
Subject: [Avodah] They and Them, or We and Us
I had been planning on beginning our Seder with something like the =
following, but now I'm having second thoughts, and I invite comments =
from the chevrah:
-begin-
I often hear people saying things like "The Bnai Yisrael left =
Mitzrayim", or "80% of them died during the Choshech." It drives me =
crazy when I hear such things. We should not say "Bnai Yisrael" and =
"them". We should be saying "we" and "us". For the rest of the year, I =
concede that this view might be a bit extremist, and that's why I stay =
quiet. But on this night, the whole point of which is to re-experience =
Yetzias Mitzrayim, as if we ourselves we were, I feel that it is very =
important to use these words. It will inevitably help us to get into =
that mindset, of "chayav adam liros es atzmo k'eelu hu yatza =
mimitzrayim", and I will gently correct anyone at the table who forgets =
this.
-end-
But upon reviewing the Hagada, I find that even on this night, even the =
Hagada itself does not go to the extreme that I've suggested. Just one =
example would be in the remark "shehayu Yisrael m'tzuyanim sham - Israel =
was distinctive there." It would have been so very simple for the Baal =
Hagada to write "shehayinu m'tzuyanim sham - *we* were distinctive =
there." But he did not.
So here's my question: Am I going overboard; should I drop this =
extremist idea? Or, if you think this is a good idea, how should I =
respond if anyone at my table points out that the Hagada itself doesn't =
go as far as I'm suggesting?
Thanks!
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 13:12:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hoist by his editor's petard
On 03/04/2009, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> RDR wrote:
>> What has semicha to do with psak? Naively psak is pronouncing an
>> applied halachic decision. Semicha is authority to perform certain
>> judicial functions.
> Actually, according to the usual text you tend to find on the "klaf",
> it's reshus to give pesaq even when lifnei rabbo.
The reference was to the real semicha, which we no longer have.
--=20
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: menucha <m...@inter.net.il>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:05:50 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts
a truly idiotic svara for gebrochts is brought- and refuted- in the=20
Shaarei Teshuva OC460, a woman who saw her neighbor making matza meal=20
pancakes (sufganin) and thought that it was ok to make regular flour=20
pancakes on pesach.and did so....
menucha
Yitzchok Levine wrote:
> Dr. Josh Backon sent me the message below about Gebrokts
>
>
> Then how did this minhag ta'ut originate ?? The RAAVAN (Pesachim 39a)
> mentions a 12th century custom where people would refrain (rightfully)
> from soaking the matza (for the seder) in wine or soup. But this was
> NOT because it would become chametz but because one couldn't fulfill
> one's obligation with soaked matza. Only these ignorami thought it was
> because soaking matza would make it chametz !
>
>
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 08:15:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] reasons for torah loopholes in dinei mamonos
Chana Luntz wrote:
> What to my mind is intriguing about hezek she'eino nikar as it is=20
> brought in
> the Codes and as the rabbis legislated for it, is that the decrease in
> value, the difference between the main market and the shadow market, =
if that
> is the way you want to express it, is solely due to Torah values.
While cleaning and carrying I was musing about how to shoehorn the sugya =
in Gittin 41a (about selling a mortgaged slave as hezek she'eino nikkar) =
into this paradigm. I came up with some wild ideas, but nothing =
plausible.
David Riceman
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:13:16 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] OOPS Re: reasons for torah loopholes in dinei
Of course I meant freeing a mortgaged slave.
DR
David Riceman wrote:
> Chana Luntz wrote:
>> What to my mind is intriguing about hezek she'eino nikar as it is=20
>> brought in
>> the Codes and as the rabbis legislated for it, is that the decrease =
in
>> value, the difference between the main market and the shadow market,=20
>> if that
>> is the way you want to express it, is solely due to Torah values.
>
> While cleaning and carrying I was musing about how to shoehorn the=20
> sugya in Gittin 41a (about selling a mortgaged slave as hezek she'eino =
> nikkar) into this paradigm. I came up with some wild ideas, but=20
> nothing plausible.
>
> David Riceman
>
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:44:06 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] potato=3Dkitniyot
HaMoadim Behalacha quotes Nishmat Adam 20 that in the year
tat-kuf-lamed-aleph in the
town of Fiorda there was a famine in Germany and the bet din allowed
Bulbas=3DErd-Epfil since in Germany
they dont eat Erd-edfil since they make flour from it and they also
allowed kitnitot but not
Gerofin
BTW given the current economic situation is there anyone today that
allows kitniyot?
In our town's kimchah de-pesicha sent to many local people the
packages included rice and
kitniyot oil
--=20
Eli Turkel
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: Yitzhak Grossman <cele...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:58:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:05:50 +0300
menucha <m...@inter.net.il> wrote:
> a truly idiotic svara for gebrochts is brought- and refuted- in the=20
> Shaarei Teshuva OC460, a woman who saw her neighbor making matza meal=20
> pancakes (sufganin) and thought that it was ok to make regular flour=20
> pancakes on pesach.and did so....
The phrase "a truly idiotic svara" is quite inappropriate; Sha'arei
Teshuvah is citing Kenesses Ha'Gedolah (OH 461 Hagahos BY s.v.
anu nohagin):
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3D9342&;pgnum=3D130
Rav Benveniste states that he heard this episode in his youth, and that
the "sages of the city" instituted a prohibition, and that this is the
custom "until today".
Sha'arei Teshuvah does quote Peri Hadash who rejects this.
Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters
Go to top.
Message: 12
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:49:21 EDT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Bris milah or Bircas Hachama which comes first?
=20
From: Marty Bluke _marty.bluke@gmail.com_ (mailto:marty.bl...@gmail.com) =
>>Bris milah or Bircas Hachama which comes first?=20
=20
R' Elyashiv was asked this question by one of his grandchildren who
had a baby last Wednesday. R' Elyashiv's psak was that first you do
Bircas Hachama and then the mila. Unfortunately the reasoning for the
psak was not given. I can certainly see sevaras both ways. Anyone have
any thoughts on the klallim involved? <<
=20
=20
>>>>>
=20
My thought is that the answer may lie in something that RMB wrote, under =
the=20
subject line "birchat hachama":
<<Contrary to my error earlier, the event is not at dawn (or noon). =
It's
actually the night before. The moment that the sun is in its place is
during the rule of Shabbatai, which is at the start of Wed, the evening
before. The berakhah is made when the sun next appears. >>
Thus, perhaps the reasoning is that the obligation of birkas hachama=20
actually arrived earlier than the obligation to do the bris, and =
therefore takes=20
precedence.
=20
=20
--Toby Katz
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
--------------------
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 =
easy=20
steps!=20
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2%26h=
mpgID
%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooterNO62)
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Message: 13
From: "Joseph C. Kaplan" <jkap...@tenzerlunin.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 11:51:33 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Women at Funerals
In response to my question about not allowing women at funerals --=20
> does the fact that we're talking about minhagim affecting
> mourners, who are in a difficult emotional state, affect
> the answer to these questions? That is, should the
> standards governing demanding that a mourner follow a minhag
> of mourning that he/she finds emotionally problematic be the
> same as, for example, a rabbi deciding whether to insist
> that a male not put on tefillin in the rabbi's shul on chol
> HaMoed?
RAM gave a thoughtful reply which, in part, stated:
"My heart goes out to those who were genuinely hurt by how the rules of =
the Chevra Kadisha impacted them. But I'd like to think that these =
minhagim did not develop in an arbitrary manner, and that they tend to =
be beneficial."
I understand that and I also like to think that, when instituted, the =
minhagim were beneficial to the people at that time. But if the way we =
deal with emotional experiences is different today, and if we are =
dealing with minhag and not halacha, might it therefore not be more =
sensitive, and thus more beneficial to the mourners, to have a more =
flexible approach in this area? And, I note, that in asking for =
flexibility, I am not seeking to abrogate the minhag. But if a chevrah =
or rabbi sees that the mourner is being adversely affected by the =
minhag, might that not be a time to err on the side of flexibility and =
sensitivity?
Joseph Kaplan
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Message: 14
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:48:05 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hoist by his editor's petard
R' David Riceman quoted the Rogatchover:
> What value is a psak lacking explanation? Rabbi Rosen (p. 22
> column 2) rules that it lacks precedential value: "horaah kol
> zman shelo nisbarer lanu ta'amo ein tzarich lachush l'dvarav
> klal. Ki haoser v'hamtamei tzarich l'havi ra'ayah".
Then he asked:
> Ironically the editor doesn't cite Rabbi Rosen's explanation.
To me, the reasoning is self-evident. If you don't know the reasoning, =
how on earth can you apply it to other cases? Other cases may *seem* =
similar, but how can you know?
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here.
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Message: 15
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 07:43:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] driving/taxi on chol hamoed
I cannot imagine why this is not included in tzaara degufa.
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
=20
____________________________________________________________
Digital Photography - Click Now.
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Message: 16
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:15:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] They and Them, or We and Us
It will inevitably help us to get into that mindset, of "chayav adam
liros es atzmo k'eelu hu yatza mimitzrayim", and I will gently correct
anyone at the table who forgets this.
-end-
So here's my question: Am I going overboard; should I drop this
extremist idea? Or, if you think this is a good idea, how should I
respond if anyone at my table points out that the Hagada itself doesn't
go as far as I'm suggesting?
Thanks!
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
The idea is a noble one - imho hakol lfi hamakom vhazman - if you
perceive that gentle reminders are counterproductive (they become the
focus), just do it yourself and explain why once (or twice).
The fact that the baal hagadda (who was that again :-)) doesn't go so
far may be explained as simply clarity for the uninitiated and a jumping
off point etc
CKVS
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE=20
ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL=20
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination,=20
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the =
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strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please =
notify us=20
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. =20
Thank you.
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Message: 17
From: "Chanoch (Ken) Bloom" <kbl...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 08:42:51 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Choshen
On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 09:11 -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 12:35:35PM -0400, Silverman, Philip B wrote:
> : SBA asked about the background of the world "Choshen," and some =
folks
> : have responded with interesting answers.
> : I'm curious if any grammarians out there have focused on the =
two-letter
> : root "ches-shin" with a nun suffix.
>=20
> Well, here's what I found on possible 3 letter roots based on a =
possible
> /ch-sh/ underlying root
>=20
> CSH - chashah: silent or unresponsive (just hit me -- Chushim ben Dan,
> who was deaf, could be named from the same shoresh as "yecheshu")
>=20
> CSM (Chashum) - personal name in Ezra and Nechemiah
>=20
> CSN - nidon didan
>=20
> CSS (doubling the middle letter) - straw / chaff or dust
>=20
> CVS/CYS (chush, chish) - hurry
>=20
> CVS (chush) - to feel
This could be promising, since the Kohen Gadol had the names of all of
the tribes on his chest, presumably that was so they would be near to
his heart and he could empathize with them.
> YCS (yachas) - geneology (as spelled in Nechamiah 7:6)
>=20
> NCS - bronze / bold / snake / hiss / tell the future (lenacheish)
>=20
> That last one is promising. But that would make choshen as a =
permissable
> form of lenacheish, a potentially huge topic.
Is lenacheish restricted to telling the future, or can it be broader?
After all, the Choshen did have the Urim v'Tumim, which was a form of
prophecy.
--Ken
--=20
Chanoch (Ken) Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/
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Message: 18
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:19:04 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] returning merchandise
I bought a camera from a major distributor in the US. The camera didn't =
arrive.
When I complained they sent a replacement. Several months later the
original camera was delivered by the US post office (yeah USPostal =
service).
Is there a chiyuv to return the second (actually the original) camera
kol tuv
--=20
Eli Turkel
Go to top.
Message: 19
From: "Samuel Svarc" <ssv...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:06:53 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] potato=3Dkitniyot
Was that because of the economics, the recipients were Sephardim, or the
Kimcha de-Pischa discarded the minag of kitniyos?
KT,
MSS=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org [mailto:avodah-
> boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Eli Turkel
> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:44 AM
> To: avodah
> Subject: [Avodah] potato=3Dkitniyot
>=20
<SNIP>
>=20
> BTW given the current economic situation is there anyone today that
> allows kitniyot?
>=20
> In our town's kimchah de-pesicha sent to many local people the
> packages included rice and
> kitniyot oil
>=20
> --
> Eli Turkel
Go to top.
Message: 20
From: Chaim G Steinmetz <cgsteinm...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:08:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts
IIRC, this is one of the topics that keep on coming up. A brief comment
or 2:
1) The reasoning attributed below to the Baal Hatanya in his tshuva (not
his Shulchan Aruch like has been mistakenly attributed) is not based on
the thickness of the matzos, but on the quickness of the kneading
process, which was a recent developement, ayin shom.
2) The Baal Hatanya himself, after discussing the issue at length, going
throught the relevant poskim etc., writes that lehalacha there is plenty
to rely on not to be makpid, but Pesach the minhog bymany is to have
chumras etc., to worry about a daas yochid etc. Interestingly enough, =
the
Shaarei Tshuvah (460:10) - though seemingly going with the approach that
the reason for the machmirim is because of the thick matzos (he does not
bring the abovementioned tshuvah, and I don't know if he could have seen
it) - also brings plenty basis to be choshesh (for those that want to be
machmir), and he definitely does not express the disdain (an attitude =
NOT
expressed by the Mishnah Brurah 458:4, and many other non-Chassidish
gedolim and poskim...) for this minhag yisroel/chumra that many seem to
have. And see also his conclusion!
Bottom line (like the ST writes): V'amech Kulom Tzaddikim, whether they
eat gebrokst or not!
CGS
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:16:12 -0400 Yitzchok Levine
<Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu> writes:
Dr. Josh Backon sent me the message below about Gebrokts. My
understanding is that anyone who presently does not eat gebrokts can be
mattir nedder and then eat gebrokts. YL :-)
(intro snipped)
Then how did this minhag ta'ut originate ?? The RAAVAN (Pesachim 39a)
mentions a 12th century custom where people would refrain (rightfully)
from soaking the matza (for the seder) in wine or soup. But this was
NOT because it would become chametz but because one couldn't fulfill
one's obligation with soaked matza. Only these ignorami thought it was
because soaking matza would make it chametz !
It was only much later (Shulchan Aruch Harav) who thought that perhaps
the reason would have been because matza made then was MUCH thicker
than it is today and perhaps some unbaked dough would become chametz
if mixed with water. But this reasoning was knocked down by the Shaarei
Teshuva (Orach Chaim 460:10) since in the past 150 years, matza is made
thin.
____________________________________________________________
Enhance the beauty of your landscaping with a stunning fountain! Click =
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<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Today's Topics:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> 1. Re: birchat hachama (Zev Sero)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 2. Gebrochts (Yitzchok Levine)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 3. biur sheviit (Eli Turkel)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 4. driving/taxi on chol hamoed (Eli =
Turkel)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 5. They and Them, or We and Us =
(kennethgmil...@juno.com)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 6. Re: hoist by his editor's petard (Zev =
Sero)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 7. Re: Gebrochts (menucha)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 8. Re: reasons for torah loopholes in =
dinei mamonos (David Riceman)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 9. OOPS Re: reasons for torah =
loopholes in dinei mamonos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> (David Riceman)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 10. potato=3Dkitniyot (Eli Turkel)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 11. Re: Gebrochts (Yitzhak Grossman)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 12. Re: Bris milah or Bircas Hachama which =
comes first?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> (T6...@aol.com)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 13. Women at Funerals (Joseph C. =
Kaplan)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 14. Re: hoist by his editor's petard =
(kennethgmil...@juno.com)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 15. Re: driving/taxi on chol hamoed (Gershon =
Dubin)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 16. Re: They and Them, or We and Us (Rich, =
Joel)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 17. Re: Choshen (Chanoch (Ken) Bloom)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 18. returning merchandise (Eli Turkel)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 19. Re: potato=3Dkitniyot (Samuel =
Svarc)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 20. Re: Gebrochts (Chaim G Steinmetz)</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 1</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 13:07:54 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] birchat hachama</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><e502ace30904051007n824995fjc565ac924afb9...@mail.gmail.com&g=
t;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On 03/04/2009, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> =
wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Actually one can make the berachat ha-ilanot =
after nissan just that normally</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> there are no blossoms later in the year. In the =
southern henisphere one would</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> say it in Tishre.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I am not aware of anyone in Australia who says Birkat =
Ilanot. And the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>reason, as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>far as I know, is because it must be said =
"biymei nissan", and at that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>time there</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>are no blossoming fruit trees.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Zev Sero</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>z...@sero.name</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:16:12 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Yitzchok Levine =
<Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] Gebrochts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avo...@aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<0KHO00HYACJ...@nexus.stevens.edu></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3D"us-ascii"; Format=3D"flowed"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dr. Josh Backon sent me the message below about =
Gebrokts. My </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>understanding is that anyone who presently does not =
eat gebrokts can </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>be mattir nedder and then eat gebrokts. YL :-)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The gemara in Pesachim 41a discusses the *machloket* =
between R. Meir and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>R. Yossi whether one fulfills the mitzva of matza =
(Seder) if the matza</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>is soaked in water. The RIF there rules like R. Yossi =
(that one can't use</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>boiled matza) since the boiling detracts from the =
taste of the matza</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>but he permits matza soaked in water.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Rabbenu Manoach (on Rambam Hilchot Chametz U'Matza =
6:6) agrees with the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>RIF that one cannot soak matza in wine (but does =
permit water) since it would</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>overpower the taste of the Matzah.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The Maharil (brought in the BACH on the TUR Orach =
Chaim 461) agrees (soaked</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>in water OK, but not in soup that would overpower the =
taste). The Magen</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Avraham there (OC 461) even feels that the Mechaber =
would even allow</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>matza soaked in wine ! The TUR OC 461 and Mechaber OC =
461 agree with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the RIF and Rambam (that matza soaked in water is =
OK).</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Then how did this minhag ta'ut originate ?? The RAAVAN =
(Pesachim 39a)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>mentions a 12th century custom where people would =
refrain (rightfully)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>from soaking the matza (for the seder) in wine or =
soup. But this was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>NOT because it would become chametz but because one =
couldn't fulfill</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>one's obligation with soaked matza. Only these =
ignorami thought it was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>because soaking matza would make it chametz !</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It was only much later (Shulchan Aruch Harav) who =
thought that perhaps</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the reason would have been because matza made then =
was MUCH thicker</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>than it is today and perhaps some unbaked dough would =
become chametz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>if mixed with water. But this reasoning was knocked =
down by the Shaarei</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Teshuva (Orach Chaim 460:10) since in the past 150 =
years, matza is made</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>thin.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>So go and enjoy the kneidlach!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Josh</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-------------- next part --------------</FONT>
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</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 3</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:30:45 +0300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] biur sheviit</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avodah <avo...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><471ff3f40904041230m2d23e7b0ve8c49ec02ffb8...@mail.gmail.com&=
gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>A reminder to the Israeli checra that besides getting =
ready for Pesach and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>birchat hachamma one also needs to make any otzar bet =
din wines or</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>grape juices hefker in front of 3 people before =
Pesach</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Eli Turkel</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 4</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 09:46:03 +0300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] driving/taxi on chol hamoed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avodah <avo...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><471ff3f40904042346k3cc6ff86of725b00ab1f19...@mail.gmail.com&=
gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I have a cousin who is restrained to a wheel chair and =
is very immobile.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>His son-in-law in Yerushalayim refuses to take a taxi =
to Netanya on chol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>hamoed unless they find a "poor" taxi =
driver.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Does anyone know about teshuvot on using taxis =
(Jewish) on chol hamoed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>including bikur cholim and kibud av =
mitzvot</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Eli Turkel</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 5</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 12:47:51 GMT</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" =
<kennethgmil...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] They and Them, or We and Us</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090405.084751.2892...@webmail09.vgs.untd.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I had been planning on beginning our Seder with =
something like the following, but now I'm having second thoughts, and I =
invite comments from the chevrah:</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-begin-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I often hear people saying things like "The Bnai =
Yisrael left Mitzrayim", or "80% of them died during the =
Choshech." It drives me crazy when I hear such things. We should =
not say "Bnai Yisrael" and "them". We should be =
saying "we" and "us". For the rest of the year, I =
concede that this view might be a bit extremist, and that's why I stay =
quiet. But on this night, the whole point of which is to re-experience =
Yetzias Mitzrayim, as if we ourselves we were, I feel that it is very =
important to use these words. It will inevitably help us to get into =
that mindset, of "chayav adam liros es atzmo k'eelu hu yatza =
mimitzrayim", and I will gently correct anyone at the table who =
forgets this.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-end-</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>But upon reviewing the Hagada, I find that even on =
this night, even the Hagada itself does not go to the extreme that I've =
suggested. Just one example would be in the remark "shehayu Yisrael =
m'tzuyanim sham - Israel was distinctive there." It would have been =
so very simple for the Baal Hagada to write "shehayinu m'tzuyanim =
sham - *we* were distinctive there." But he did not.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>So here's my question: Am I going overboard; should I =
drop this extremist idea? Or, if you think this is a good idea, how =
should I respond if anyone at my table points out that the Hagada itself =
doesn't go as far as I'm suggesting?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Akiva Miller</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>____________________________________________________________</FO=
NT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Click to compare life insurance rates. Great =
rates, quick and easy.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsHFB9HFGlx6nvyS=
IQBF0szqePgDcpKinkjodOPCwYXQRtSJc2vBmg/">http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com=
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/A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 6</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 13:12:40 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] hoist by his editor's =
petard</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org>,</FONT>
<BR> <FONT SIZE=3D2>Micha =
Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>, =
Avodah Torah Discussion Group</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><avo...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><e502ace30904051012k7679d092hc19528f60a09d...@mail.gmail.com&=
gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On 03/04/2009, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> =
wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> RDR wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> What has semicha to do with psak? Naively =
psak is pronouncing an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> applied halachic decision. Semicha is =
authority to perform certain</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> judicial functions.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Actually, according to the usual text you tend to =
find on the "klaf",</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> it's reshus to give pesaq even when lifnei =
rabbo.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The reference was to the real semicha, which we no =
longer have.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Zev Sero</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>z...@sero.name</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 7</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:05:50 +0300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: menucha <m...@inter.net.il></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<49D9E20E.8080...@inter.net.il></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii; =
format=3Dflowed</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>a truly idiotic svara for gebrochts is brought- and =
refuted- in the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Shaarei Teshuva OC460, a woman who saw her neighbor =
making matza meal </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>pancakes (sufganin) and thought that it was ok to =
make regular flour </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>pancakes on pesach.and did so....</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>menucha</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yitzchok Levine wrote:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Dr. Josh Backon sent me the message below about =
Gebrokts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Then how did this minhag ta'ut originate ?? The =
RAAVAN (Pesachim 39a)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> mentions a 12th century custom where people =
would refrain (rightfully)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> from soaking the matza (for the seder) in wine =
or soup. But this was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> NOT because it would become chametz but because =
one couldn't fulfill</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> one's obligation with soaked matza. Only these =
ignorami thought it was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> because soaking matza would make it chametz =
!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 8</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 08:15:26 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] reasons for torah loopholes in =
dinei mamonos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Chana Luntz =
<ch...@kolsassoon.org.uk></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: <49D9F25E.8050...@att.net></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; =
format=3Dflowed</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Chana Luntz wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> What to my mind is intriguing about hezek =
she'eino nikar as it is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> brought in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the Codes and as the rabbis legislated for it, =
is that the decrease in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> value, the difference between the main market =
and the shadow market, if that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> is the way you want to express it, is solely due =
to Torah values.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>While cleaning and carrying I was musing about how to =
shoehorn the sugya </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>in Gittin 41a (about selling a mortgaged slave as =
hezek she'eino nikkar) </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>into this paradigm. I came up with some wild =
ideas, but nothing plausible.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>David Riceman</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 9</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:13:16 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] OOPS Re: reasons for torah =
loopholes in dinei</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>mamonos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org>,</FONT>
<BR> <FONT SIZE=3D2>Chana =
Luntz <ch...@kolsassoon.org.uk></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: <49D9FFEC.9060...@att.net></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; =
format=3Dflowed</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Of course I meant freeing a mortgaged slave.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>DR</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>David Riceman wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Chana Luntz wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> What to my mind is intriguing about hezek =
she'eino nikar as it is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> brought in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> the Codes and as the rabbis legislated for =
it, is that the decrease in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> value, the difference between the main =
market and the shadow market, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> if that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> is the way you want to express it, is solely =
due to Torah values.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> While cleaning and carrying I was musing about =
how to shoehorn the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> sugya in Gittin 41a (about selling a mortgaged =
slave as hezek she'eino </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> nikkar) into this paradigm. I came up with =
some wild ideas, but </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> nothing plausible.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> David Riceman</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 10</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:44:06 +0300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] potato=3Dkitniyot</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avodah <avo...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><471ff3f40904060844t5f974ce3k354ea5a8f3f61...@mail.gmail.com&=
gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>HaMoadim Behalacha quotes Nishmat Adam 20 that in the =
year</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>tat-kuf-lamed-aleph in the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>town of Fiorda there was a famine in Germany and the =
bet din allowed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bulbas=3DErd-Epfil since in Germany</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>they dont eat Erd-edfil since they make flour from it =
and they also</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>allowed kitnitot but not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Gerofin</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>BTW given the current economic situation is there =
anyone today that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>allows kitniyot?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In our town's kimchah de-pesicha sent to many local =
people the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>packages included rice and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>kitniyot oil</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Eli Turkel</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 11</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:58:14 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Yitzhak Grossman =
<cele...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090406135814.246edb82.cele...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:05:50 +0300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>menucha <m...@inter.net.il> wrote:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> a truly idiotic svara for gebrochts is brought- =
and refuted- in the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Shaarei Teshuva OC460, a woman who saw her =
neighbor making matza meal </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> pancakes (sufganin) and thought that it was ok =
to make regular flour </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> pancakes on pesach.and did so....</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The phrase "a truly idiotic svara" is quite =
inappropriate; Sha'arei</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Teshuvah is citing Kenesses Ha'Gedolah (OH 461 =
Hagahos BY s.v.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>anu nohagin):</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3D9342&;pgnum=3D130">http=
://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3D9342&pgnum=3D130</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Rav Benveniste states that he heard this episode in =
his youth, and that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the "sages of the city" instituted a =
prohibition, and that this is the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>custom "until today".</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sha'arei Teshuvah does quote Peri Hadash who rejects =
this.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yitzhak</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>--</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bein Din Ledin - <A =
HREF=3D"http://bdl.freehostia.com">http://bdl.freehostia.com<;/A>
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and =
other matters</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 12</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:49:21 EDT</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: T6...@aol.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Bris milah or Bircas Hachama =
which comes first?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org, marty.bl...@gmail.com, =
T6...@aol.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<d5c.3822adc0.370ba...@aol.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3D"us-ascii"</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Marty Bluke _marty.bluke@gmail.com_ (<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:marty.bl...@gmail.com">mailto:marty.bl...@gmail.com</A>) =
</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>>>Bris milah or Bircas Hachama which comes =
first? </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>R' Elyashiv was asked this question by one of his =
grandchildren who</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>had a baby last Wednesday. R' Elyashiv's psak was =
that first you do</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bircas Hachama and then the mila. Unfortunately the =
reasoning for the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>psak was not given. I can certainly see sevaras both =
ways. Anyone have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>any thoughts on the klallim involved? <<</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>>>>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>My thought is that the answer may lie in something =
that RMB wrote, under the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>subject line "birchat hachama":</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><<Contrary to my error earlier, the event =
is not at dawn (or noon). It's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>actually the night before. The moment that the =
sun is in its place is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>during the rule of Shabbatai, which is at the =
start of Wed, the evening</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>before. The berakhah is made when the sun next =
appears. >></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thus, perhaps the reasoning is that the =
obligation of birkas hachama </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>actually arrived earlier than the obligation to =
do the bris, and therefore takes </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>precedence.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>--Toby Katz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>--------------------</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See =
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooterNO62)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-------------- next part --------------</FONT>
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</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 13</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 11:51:33 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: "Joseph C. Kaplan" =
<jkap...@tenzerlunin.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] Women at Funerals</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: "Kenneth Miller" =
<kennethgmil...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: avo...@lists.aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<3B700551659346539F2870172E189348@JKAPLAN></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3D"windows-1252"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In response to my question about not allowing women at =
funerals -- </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> does the fact that we're talking about minhagim =
affecting</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> mourners, who are in a difficult emotional =
state, affect</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the answer to these questions? That is, =
should the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> standards governing demanding that a mourner =
follow a minhag</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> of mourning that he/she finds emotionally =
problematic be the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> same as, for example, a rabbi deciding whether =
to insist</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> that a male not put on tefillin in the rabbi's =
shul on chol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> HaMoed?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>RAM gave a thoughtful reply which, in part, =
stated:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>"My heart goes out to those who were genuinely =
hurt by how the rules of the Chevra Kadisha impacted them. But I'd like =
to think that these minhagim did not develop in an arbitrary manner, and =
that they tend to be beneficial."</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I understand that and I also like to think that, when =
instituted, the minhagim were beneficial to the people at that =
time. But if the way we deal with emotional experiences is =
different today, and if we are dealing with minhag and not halacha, =
might it therefore not be more sensitive, and thus more beneficial to =
the mourners, to have a more flexible approach in this area? And, =
I note, that in asking for flexibility, I am not seeking to abrogate the =
minhag. But if a chevrah or rabbi sees that the mourner is being =
adversely affected by the minhag, might that not be a time to err on the =
side of flexibility and sensitivity?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Joseph Kaplan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-------------- next part --------------</FONT>
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>></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 14</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:48:05 GMT</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" =
<kennethgmil...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] hoist by his editor's =
petard</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090406.094805.1970...@webmail03.vgs.untd.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>R' David Riceman quoted the Rogatchover:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> What value is a psak lacking explanation? Rabbi =
Rosen (p. 22</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> column 2) rules that it lacks precedential =
value: "horaah kol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> zman shelo nisbarer lanu ta'amo ein tzarich =
lachush l'dvarav</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> klal. Ki haoser v'hamtamei tzarich l'havi =
ra'ayah".</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Then he asked:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Ironically the editor doesn't cite Rabbi Rosen's =
explanation.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>To me, the reasoning is self-evident. If you don't =
know the reasoning, how on earth can you apply it to other cases? Other =
cases may *seem* similar, but how can you know?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Akiva Miller</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>____________________________________________________________</FO=
NT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Get a Business Credit Card. Click Here.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsDiJXaWHtTRZBrG=
m7IDyZ6XevCKTk5y1RCZVZ51ILEReuPpJnvDFm/">http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com=
/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsDiJXaWHtTRZBrGm7IDyZ6XevCKTk5y1RCZVZ51ILEReuPpJnvDFm/<=
/A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 15</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 07:43:36 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Gershon Dubin =
<gershon.du...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] driving/taxi on chol =
hamoed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: avo...@aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090406.074716.4844.24.gershon.du...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I cannot imagine why this is not included in tzaara =
degufa.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Gershon</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>gershon.du...@juno.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>____________________________________________________________</FO=
NT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Digital Photography - Click Now.</FONT>
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/A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 16</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:15:35 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: "Rich, Joel" =
<JR...@sibson.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] They and Them, or We and =
Us</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: "A High-Level Torah Discussion Group" =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><7F5EC37AC45DE64DB56C8AD3D409C2B206123...@NYCEXCL01.segal.seg=
alco.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: =
text/plain; =
charset=3D"us-ascii"</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> It will inevitably help us to get into that =
mindset, of "chayav adam</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>liros es atzmo k'eelu hu yatza mimitzrayim", and =
I will gently correct</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>anyone at the table who forgets this.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-end-</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>So here's my question: Am I going overboard; should I =
drop this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>extremist idea? Or, if you think this is a good idea, =
how should I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>respond if anyone at my table points out that the =
Hagada itself doesn't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>go as far as I'm suggesting?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Akiva Miller</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>____________________________________________________________</FO=
NT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>The idea is a noble one - imho hakol lfi =
hamakom vhazman - if you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>perceive that gentle reminders are counterproductive =
(they become the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>focus), just do it yourself and explain why once (or =
twice).</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The fact that the baal hagadda (who was that again =
:-)) doesn't go so</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>far may be explained as simply clarity for the =
uninitiated and a jumping</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>off point etc</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>CKVS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Joel Rich</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. =
Dissemination, </FONT>
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>strictly prohibited. If you received this =
message in error, please notify us </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>immediately by replying: "Received in =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thank you.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 17</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 08:42:51 -0500</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: "Chanoch (Ken) Bloom" =
<kbl...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Choshen</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<1239025371.3401.3.ca...@cat-in-the-hat.dnsalias.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3D"us-ascii"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 09:11 -0400, Micha Berger =
wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 12:35:35PM -0400, =
Silverman, Philip B wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> : SBA asked about the background of the world =
"Choshen," and some folks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> : have responded with interesting =
answers.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> : I'm curious if any grammarians out there have =
focused on the two-letter</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> : root "ches-shin" with a nun =
suffix.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Well, here's what I found on possible 3 letter =
roots based on a possible</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> /ch-sh/ underlying root</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> CSH - chashah: silent or unresponsive (just hit =
me -- Chushim ben Dan,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> who was deaf, could be named from the same =
shoresh as "yecheshu")</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> CSM (Chashum) - personal name in Ezra and =
Nechemiah</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> CSN - nidon didan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> CSS (doubling the middle letter) - straw / chaff =
or dust</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> CVS/CYS (chush, chish) - hurry</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> CVS (chush) - to feel</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This could be promising, since the Kohen Gadol had the =
names of all of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the tribes on his chest, presumably that was so they =
would be near to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>his heart and he could empathize with them.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> YCS (yachas) - geneology (as spelled in Nechamiah =
7:6)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> NCS - bronze / bold / snake / hiss / tell the =
future (lenacheish)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> That last one is promising. But that would make =
choshen as a permissable</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> form of lenacheish, a potentially huge =
topic.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is lenacheish restricted to telling the future, or can =
it be broader?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>After all, the Choshen did have the Urim v'Tumim, =
which was a form of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>prophecy.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>--Ken</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Chanoch (Ken) Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic =
Cognition Laboratory.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of =
Technology.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/"><
a
href='http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/<'>http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/<;
/A></F=
ONT>
</P>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 18</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:19:04 +0300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] returning merchandise</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avodah <avo...@aishdas.org>, Elimelech =
Kornfeld</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><ekorn...@netvision.co.il></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><471ff3f40904060619la48a020i462995d7fa896...@mail.gmail.com&g=
t;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I bought a camera from a major distributor in the US. =
The camera didn't arrive.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>When I complained they sent a replacement. Several =
months later the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>original camera was delivered by the US post office =
(yeah USPostal service).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is there a chiyuv to return the second (actually the =
original) camera</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>kol tuv</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Eli Turkel</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 19</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:06:53 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: "Samuel Svarc" =
<ssv...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] potato=3Dkitniyot</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: "'A High-Level Torah Discussion Group'" =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<00bc01c9b6fb$9d3013b0$d7903b10$@com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: =
text/plain; =
charset=3D"us-ascii"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Was that because of the economics, the recipients were =
Sephardim, or the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Kimcha de-Pischa discarded the minag of =
kitniyos?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>KT,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>MSS </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:avodah-">mailto:avodah-</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Eli =
Turkel</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:44 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> To: avodah</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Subject: [Avodah] potato=3Dkitniyot</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><SNIP></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> BTW given the current economic situation is =
there anyone today that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> allows kitniyot?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> In our town's kimchah de-pesicha sent to many =
local people the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> packages included rice and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> kitniyot oil</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Eli Turkel</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 20</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:08:57 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Chaim G Steinmetz =
<cgsteinm...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avo...@aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090406.180858.17068.3.cgsteinm...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3D"us-ascii"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>IIRC, this is one of the topics that keep on coming =
up. A brief comment</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>or 2:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>1) The reasoning attributed below to the Baal Hatanya =
in his tshuva (not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>his Shulchan Aruch like has been mistakenly =
attributed) is not based on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the thickness of the matzos, but on the quickness of =
the kneading</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>process, which was a recent developement, ayin =
shom.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>2) The Baal Hatanya himself, after discussing the =
issue at length, going</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>throught the relevant poskim etc., writes that =
lehalacha there is plenty</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to rely on not to be makpid, but Pesach the minhog =
bymany is to have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>chumras etc., to worry about a daas yochid etc. =
Interestingly enough, the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Shaarei Tshuvah (460:10) - though seemingly going =
with the approach that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the reason for the machmirim is because of the thick =
matzos (he does not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>bring the abovementioned tshuvah, and I don't know if =
he could have seen</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>it) - also brings plenty basis to be choshesh (for =
those that want to be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>machmir), and he definitely does not express the =
disdain (an attitude NOT</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>expressed by the Mishnah Brurah 458:4, and many other =
non-Chassidish</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>gedolim and poskim...) for this minhag yisroel/chumra =
that many seem to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>have. And see also his conclusion!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bottom line (like the ST writes): V'amech Kulom =
Tzaddikim, whether they</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>eat gebrokst or not!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>CGS</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:16:12 -0400 Yitzchok =
Levine</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu> writes:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dr. Josh Backon sent me the message below about =
Gebrokts. My</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>understanding is that anyone who presently does not =
eat gebrokts can be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>mattir nedder and then eat gebrokts. YL :-)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>(intro snipped)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Then how did this minhag ta'ut originate ?? The =
RAAVAN (Pesachim 39a)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>mentions a 12th century custom where people would =
refrain (rightfully)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>from soaking the matza (for the seder) in wine or =
soup. But this was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>NOT because it would become chametz but because one =
couldn't fulfill</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>one's obligation with soaked matza. Only these =
ignorami thought it was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>because soaking matza would make it chametz !</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It was only much later (Shulchan Aruch Harav) who =
thought that perhaps</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the reason would have been because matza made then =
was MUCH thicker</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>than it is today and perhaps some unbaked dough would =
become chametz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>if mixed with water. But this reasoning was knocked =
down by the Shaarei</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Teshuva (Orach Chaim 460:10) since in the past 150 =
years, matza is made</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>thin.</FONT>
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