Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 51

Mon, 16 Mar 2009

• 1. Re: The term 'erusin' (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 2. Re: superstition (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 3. Intermediaries Between Man and G-d (Yitzchok Levine)
• 4. Q re tonight's RYReisman shiur on the chamah (Michael Poppers)
• 5. Re: Shmoneh esrei - 18/19 (SBA)
• 6. Re: The term 'erusin' (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Q re tonight's RYReisman shiur on the chamah (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: [Areivim] : Re: Women at the Kotel (Akiva Blum)
• 9. reasons for torah loopholes in dinei mamonos (M Cohen)
• 10. No Differentiation (Cantor Wolberg)
• 11. Re: The term 'erusin' (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: Rambam's naturalism (David Riceman)
• 13. Cheilek LeOlam Habah/Impunity/Years (Harvey Benton)
• 14. Re: The term 'erusin' (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Rambam's naturalism (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 16. Re: superstition (T6...@aol.com)

R' Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
> ... this is incorrect, since the term "erusin" in the language
> of the Bible and the Gemara, and even after the sealing of the
> Talmud, and until our latest generation, is used to refer to
> kiddushin, and not to the execution of the tenaim, and it is
> therefore certainly ab initio improper to refer to a mere
> tenaim as erusin.

Furthermore, the term "eruv" in the language of the Gemara, and even after
the sealing of the Talmud, and until our latest generation, is used to
refer to the shared food, and not to the string around the town, and it is
therefore certainly ab initio improper to refer to a mere tzuras hapesach
as an eruv.

Many times I've also posted about those who talk about minhagim to avoid
something (like marriages during sefira or the three weeks) and refer to it
as an "issur". And this is not only in how people talk, but frequently in
poskim as well.

I am certainly NOT defending the practice of using inaccurate language. I'm
just pointing out that it is an old practice. Language changes and
develops. Old words take on new meanings. We don't have to like it or
support it, but realize that it can't be stopped.

Akiva Miller

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R' Eli Turkel wrote:
> Even more the Ramah says not to cut the nails in order but
> gives a different order (in darcei Moshe brings that
> cutting nails in the natural order causes poverty, memory
> loss and burying one chidren.
> Though some objected to these things MB says one should
> follow it lechatchila.
> To me it sounds like a superstition. Nothing is mentioned
> in the Gemara about this.

Obviously, having been codified by authoritative poskim, they are not
forbidden as being superstitions. But for many years I wondered *why*. I've
come up with a couple of possibilities.

One possibility is that someone, at some point in time, received some sort
of Revelation - either through real nevuah or some lesser sort of ruach
hakodesh - about these medical realities. Just because it doesn't appear in
the gemara does not prove it to be a recent innovation; it's quite possibly
very ancient (maybe even from Sinai) without being written down until more
recently.

Another possibility is that these things were commonly accepted medical
facts, learned through state-of-the-art research and statistics, at some
point in history. They don't make much sense to us, but I'm not aware of
any double-blind controlled studies which might disprove it. Perhaps I'm a
bit tongue-in-cheek here (or maybe not) but it sounds pretty similar to the
whole business about mixing fish and meat.

Akiva Miller

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RSRH's commentary on Parshas Ki Sisa on the Chait 
Ha Egel gives brilliant insight into this event.  On

32 1. When the people saw that Moshe did not 
fulfill their expectation that he would come down 
from the mountain, the people gathered
against Aharon, and they said to him: Arise, make 
us gods who shall go before us; for this man 
Moshe,who brought us up from the land of Egypt, 
we do not know what has happened to him.

Rav Hirsch writes

In their view, the eternal bond with God was not formed by the
Divine Torah given to them through Moshe. The eternal guarantee of
God?s protection and of the intimacy with God attainable by each individual,
without an intermediary, was not the Divine rules for life ?
i.e., the Mishpatim ? which would remain with them even when the temporary
transmitter had departed. Rather, they considered the personality
of Moshe, a man who was close to God, as the vital link in their connection
with God. Only as long as he was alive could they be certain
of God?s protection.

They believed that Moshe?s relationship with God had been initiated
not by God but by Moshe; hence, they reasoned, if Moshe was no longer
alive they could, and indeed must, take some action on their own in
order to force God?s hand. They had not yet completely absorbed the
Jewish conception that man has direct access to God, without the need
for any intermediary, as long as he conducts himself in accordance with
God?s Will. Or perhaps the fear that henceforth they would have to
wander through the wilderness without a leader to guide them caused
them to doubt this truth.

This is merely a small selection of the 
commentary on this event. If you have the Hirsch 
Chumash, then I suggest you have a look at all 
the RSRH wrote about this. I am sure that you 
will find it of great interest and most enlightening.

Yitzchok Levine 
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One of RYR's Qs essentially was "If 'B'Tishri nivra ha'olam,' why do we say
Bircas haChamah in Nisan?" w/ his answer being (based on a Tos'fos in BT
Rosh haShanah 27) that we hold like R'Eliezer (b'Tishri) in the world of
machshavah and like R'Y'hoshua (b'Nisan) in the world of ma'aseh (i.e. that
alah b'da'as hQbH to create the world before He actually [in what we call
Nisan] created the world).  My Q is: don't we calculate the average molad
going back to Tishri rather than Nisan?  Now, Googling a bit, I see that
R'Micha had some comments a few years ago re the starting point for molad
calculations (see http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol14/v14n071.shtml#19 ;
for further Avodah posts on the topic of Molad Tohu, see
http://www.google.com/m?mrestrict=xhtml&;eosr=on&ct=fsh&q=site%3Aaishdas.org+molad+tohu
 ), but I would like to note another Webpage
(http://www.hamodia.com/inthepaper.cfm?ArticleID=143 ) as having an answer
for my Q, and I quote: "Other commentaries offer different explanations for
the fact that we reckon the astronomy-based halachos from Nisan but count
years from Tishrei, with some explaining that although the sun and moon may
have been created in Tishrei, the beginning of their cycles was actually
the equinox before - but it was a 'theoretical' equinox. Similarly, the
animals were created fully matured and the trees fully grown, and the sun
and moon were also created in the middle of their cycles. So even though
they may have been created in Tishrei, their cycle had theoretically
started on the previous (theoretical) equinox, in Nisan. The Rishonim use
this reasoning in regard to the first molad (phase) of the moon, taking
into account the theoretical molad that 'happened' before the actual
creation of the moon (see Tosafos Rosh Hashanah 8b litekufos)."  That A
sounds like it's saying, "Your Q, RMP, is not a Q, as we calculate the
molad from Nisan, but it's worth noting that Molad Tohu is actually not a
few days before Shnas Adam but more like six months before it!"  Did I
understand that Hamodia article correctly?  Thanks.

Gut Voch/Shavua Tov and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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From: D&E-H Bannett 
referring to <<Kallir purposely omitted a q'rova for the bracha of "Et
tzemach David" on Purim. That's what the commentary in the Artscroll siddur
states>>  >>

I did not write the above.  My comment on it said that I was not surprised
that Artscroll backed this teirutz
>>

I have scanned the page from the sefer yotzros "Ron shir voshevach"
which discusses the Kallir and Talmud Yerushalmi quoting Siddur Tefila
Yeshara.

Will send upon request.

SBA
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kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
 
> Furthermore, the term "eruv" in the language of the Gemara, and even
> after the sealing of the Talmud, and until our latest generation, is
> used to refer to the shared food, and not to the string around the
> town, and it is therefore certainly ab initio improper to refer to a
> mere tzuras hapesach as an eruv.

I don't think that's true.  The term "eruv" has been used of any
arrangement that permits carrying, since the gemara or perhaps even
earlier.  Cf Eruvin 22a: "Ein me'arvin reshut harabim bekach", referring
to a proposed arrangement that doesn't even include an actual eruv!

You will find many references in sources older than this generation to
an eruv having broken, by which they do not mean that the food has been
eaten or destroyed; actually if that happens on Shabbos the eruv is still
fine, whereas if the mechitzot break on Shabbos one may no longer carry.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Michael Poppers wrote:
>"Your Q, RMP, is not a Q, as we calculate the molad from Nisan, 
> but it's worth noting that Molad Tohu is actually not a few days before 
> Shnas Adam but more like six months before it!" Did I understand that 
> Hamodia article correctly? Thanks.

Actually molad tohu is a full year before Adam's creation, if he was created
on Rosh Hashana (six months if he was created on 3 Nissan).

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

(sent also to Avodah)

Joseph Kaplan wrote:
Re the status of the Kotel, SBA writes in response to my request for  
a source that the Kotel was treated like a synagogue before the  
creation of the State of Israel:
>>>>>>>>>

The gemorah states (megilah 26a): The Chachomim say that the street has no
kedushah (and therefore may be sold). What is the reason that  R' Menachem
bar Yossi (says it does have kedushah)? Because they daven there on
taaniyos and maamodos. And Rabonon say no, that is only temporary (akrai
bealma). Rashi: eino tadir.

So it follows that any place that is used permanently for davening, automatically has the status of beis haknesess.

I suppose it could be argued that if the area belonged the Turkish or
British governments, no one has the ability to cause it to have a changed
status (ein adam oser davar sheino shelo). But then, who says it was ever
theirs?

Akiva

The torah (via gezeras hakasuv) paturs a damager in various cases

(that sechel haAdom would say are not understandable)

 

For example: kelim b'bor, tamun b'aish, hezek shaino nikar, admit to chazti
nezek (modeh b'knas), etc etc

 

ie if someone deliberately puts nails on the road to damage car tires, he is
patur in beis din

(though possibly chayav b'yidei shamayam because of gramma)

 

For many of the gezeras hakasuv's of the torah (basar v'chalov, shatnez,
para aduma, etc)

the mforshim attempt to give reasons for the gezeras hakasuv

 

Does anyone know of possible explanations for these peturim in dinei
mamonos?

 

mordechai cohen

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The Baal Haturim explains that   the gematria of the word esrim  
(twenty), which is the weight of the half-shekel is 620. This is the  
same gematria for the words ashir v'dal -- the rich and the poor man.  
This shows that there is no difference between the wealthy and the  
poor. All Jews are of equal value in order to achieve atonement. Also,  
the obligation of the machatzis ha-shekel begins at the age of twenty  
(esrim).

Another interesting observation is that there are 613 mitzvos and an  
additional 7 d'rabbanan which are: 1) Washing hands [before a meal and  
before the morning prayers],             2) making eruvin,  3)  
reciting brochos, 4) kindling the Shabbos lights, 5) reading the  
Megillah, 6) commemorating Chanukah, and 7) reciting Hallel,  
(equalling 620).  AND... there are 620 letters in the Aseres Hadibros  
and the same gematria for kesser (crown of the Torah).

Kol tuv.
ri

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed;
if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."
--Mark Twain

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> I am certainly NOT defending the practice of using inaccurate
language. I'm just pointing out that it is an old practice. Language
> changes and develops. Old words take on new meanings. We don't have to
> like it or support it, but realize that it can't be stopped
> Akiva Miller"

Another example: "Hallah".
It means loaf and also refers to Kind of "terumah" taken from the dough.

The mishna refers to the latter but on Shabbas most non-kohanim eat
the former while temei'im...

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Micha Berger wrote:
> I do not see in this discussion where he attacks hashgachah in general.
> After all, the 8th pereq is about bechirah; and his only mention of
> hashgachah is in contrast to bechirah. The question of HP (including
> sechar va'onesh) vs hashgachah kelalis (including the Divine Wisdom
> expressed in nature) is outside the discussion.
>   
I'm not sure whether (a) this comment is germane, or (b) whether 
someone's already mentioned it, but I think it's appropriate:

As far as I know, there are two models which describe God running each 
detail of the world.  One is the model the Rambam attributes to the 
Kalam, which is that each thing that happens in an individual expression 
of God's will.  Rabbi Dessler likes this view, but I don't recall having 
seen it in any Rishon (though I've never seen a copy of Sefer Ktav Tamim 
by R. Moshe Taqqu).  The other is the model of the world as a clockwork 
mechanism, which I think is due to Descartes, and certainly was 
advocated by no Rishon (I don't know whether it remains tenable after 
quantum mechanics).

Consequently all Rishonim accept that randomness exists in this world 
(see Ramban's commentary on Iyov 36:7 and see Kuzari 5:20).  That's why 
(or at least the first paragraph of why) many Rishonim held that 
hashgaha over animals extends only to species.  That's also how the 
Raavad (in H. Tshuva 5:5) can distinguish between Divine knowledge and 
Divine causation (cf. KLaH Pithchei Hochmah #28).

Unfortunately "mikreh" ("accident") is a technical term with two 
meanings, and often the meaning "random" gets drowned out by the more 
prevalent meaning (the opposite of "essence").

David Riceman

1. If someone explicitly tells Hashem that he would like to give up his
Cheilek in Olam Haba to effectuate a desirable outcome, such as to Bring
Moshiach, or to obtain a Refuah for someone, (or e.g., to obtain the
healthy release of Gilad Shalit, etc), is such an arrangement valid and
binding?  Such stories exist in Chasidic Literature, and as well in the
famous story involving Rabbi Akiva and the Roman who was overseeing him
being burned alive.

2.  If one has already given up his Cheilek LeOlam Habah, is he/she then
able to act with impunity in those areas where one could subsequently lose
that (already donated) Cheilek; e.g., Calling Someone by a derogatory
Nickname, or Mevazeing someone (C"Veshalom) BePharhesia??

3. Similair questions as to validity of giving up years of one's life to someone else, e.g Adam Harishon to Dodid HaMelech.

Thanks Much, Harvey

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:

> Another example: "Hallah".
> It means loaf and also refers to Kind of "terumah" taken from the dough.
> 
> The mishna refers to the latter but on Shabbas most non-kohanim eat
> the former while temei'im...

The Torah itself uses it to refer to any loaf.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:40:48 -0400
David Riceman <drice...@att.net> wrote:

...

> seen it in any Rishon (though I've never seen a copy of Sefer Ktav Tamim 
> by R. Moshe Taqqu).  The other is the model of the world as a clockwork 

My friend Andy once showed me this one:

http://www.seforimonline.org/seforim/kesav_tamim.pdf

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

 

From: Eli Turkel _eliturkel@gmail.com_ (mailto:elitur...@gmail.com) 

I am just  reading in one the daily halacha messages that
one should not cut ones  fingernails and toenails on one day
either because it is dangerous or else  (in the name of
rashi yashan - whatever that means) because of "lo yilbash  gever"
(implies a woman can do it).


Didnt understand that either - a woman does something reasonable
and  so a man can't do it??

 
 
....To me it sounds like a superstition




>>>>>
 
A woman cuts her fingernails and toenails in preparation for the  mikva but I 
don't think there's a time when a man /has/ to cut all his  nails all at the 
same time.  BTW I heard in a shiur once that even for a  woman who is 
preparing for tevilla,   it is preferable that she cut  one set of nails before sunset 
and the other after dark so as to avoid  technically cutting all her nails at 
the same time.
 
I agree with RET that this sounds like something superstitious, as does  
cutting all your nails out of order (and also making sure to gather all your  nail 
parings lest a pregnant woman step on one and miscarry) but what I have  done 
all my life I continue doing for fear that it really does make some cosmic  
difference somehow.
 
I once heard that cutting your nails out of order is to avoid doing what is  
done for the dead, viz, cutting all the nails in order, but I don't know if  
there's anything to that.   1. our chevra kadisha  does  not cut the nails of 
the niftar at all -- do other chevras cut nails?  and  2. doing something 
because it is logical is not "doing for the dead" -- cutting  in order is just 
logical.    And so why do we davka cut  our nails out of order?   Mystery.  (We 
wash the niftar  starting from the head and going down to the feet, but I never 
heard anyone say  that when you take a shower you should davka wash in a 
different order.)

--Toby  Katz
==========

--------------------



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