Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 38

Thu, 19 Feb 2009

• 1. Interesting Tefilla Insights (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Re: meein olam haba (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 3. Re: meein olam haba (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 4. Re: meein olam haba (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Interesting Tefilla Insights (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 6. Re: Interesting Tefilla Insights (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: The Stature of Moshe Rabbeinu (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 8. Re: Davening after the Zman (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: hirsch and wessely (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 10. Re: hirsch and wessely (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 11. yemach shmo (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 12. Re: yemach shmo (Zev Sero)
• 13. Negiah and Friday night brachot (David Cohen)
• 14. Re: goyim and shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: goyim and shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: The Stature of Moshe Rabbeinu (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: yemach shmo (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: yemach shmo (Micha Berger)
• 19. Wedding Rings for Men (Rich, Joel)

In the gemara B'rochos 26b  R' Yossi ben Chanina says: T'fillos Ovos  
Tiknum (the t'fillot were instituted by the ovos).  Abraham  
established the shacharis service (B'reshis 19:27); Yitzchok, the  
mincha service (B'reshis 24:63) and Yaakov, the maariv service  
(B'reshis 28:11).
What is fascinating is that it is brought down interestingly in  
S'forim that the second letter in Avraham is beis and it stands for  
boker (morning); the second letter in Yitzchok is a tzaddik and it  
stands for tzaharayim (afternoon); the second letter of Yaakov is ayin  
and stands for erev, arvis (evening). So you see just in the names,  
the second letters of Avraham, Yitzchok and Yaakov, they say, alludes  
to Shacharis, Mincha and Maariv. (If you take the first letters of  
their names you get Aleph, yud yud: One God). The text of davening  
that we have today were instituted by the anshei knesses hag'dola at  
the beginning of the second beis hamikdash.

In contrast in the same gemara, R. Yehoshua b. Levi maintains that the  
origins of three daily services are to be found in the precedent of  
the daily sacrificial service (Korban Tamid) in the Temple: morning  
and afternoon (Shemos 29:38-39).  Ma'ariv, according to this model,  
corresponds to the remaining limbs and fat of the afternoon sacrifice  
which continued to burn on the altar all night long until consumed.

A parallel source in Bereishit Rabba 68:9 records these two views and  
includes a third as well (quoted elsewhere with slight variations):  
"Rabbi Shmuel ben Nachman said: the three services correspond to the  
three changes in the day.  At nighttime one must say: 'May it be Thy  
will God my Lord to bring me forth from darkness to light.'  In the  
morning one must say:  'I give thanks to Thee God my Lord for having  
brought me forth from darkness to light.'  In the afternoon one must  
say:  'I give thanks to Thee God my Lord, for just as I merited to see  
the sun in the east, so too You merited me to see the sun in the west.'"









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R' Simon Krysl:
> could anyone refer me to the origin of the phrase "meein olam haba...
> yom shabbat" outside of the zemer Ma Yedidut?

Eitz Yosef on Mah Yedidos points us to Berachos 57b where the Gemara says so.

KT,
MYG

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:18:49 +0100
Simon Krysl <skr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all, c
> could anyone refer me to the origin of the phrase "meein olam haba...
> yom shabbat" outside of the zemer Ma Yedidut?
> I assume there are various places in Chazal where the Shabbat is
> referred to as an "extension" - for the lack of a better word - of the
> world to come, but would love to know where to start.
> Many thanks and apologies

Shabbos 57b:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/l/l1109.htm

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 08:03:29PM -0500, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: R' Simon Krysl:
:> could anyone refer me to the origin of the phrase "meein olam haba...
:> yom shabbat" outside of the zemer Ma Yedidut?

: Eitz Yosef on Mah Yedidos points us to Berachos 57b where the Gemara says so.

It's also a simple description of a time when "Avraham yageil, Yitchaq
yeranein, Yaaqov uvanav yanuchu vo..."

Also, referenced in the T-sh-r-q sequence of rashei teivos in Tiqanta
Shabbos -- that Shabbos works from the now to Olam haBa. (As opposed to
alef-beis sequence of beri'ah -- from the One to the now.

Point being, even without the gemara making the idea explicit, we should
be aware of it taken for granted in our tefillos.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
mi...@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

CRW:
> ...In the gemara B'rochos 26b...

Re: davening thrice daily...

FWIW Daniel prayed thrice daily. If I were to guess I'd say that
was probably the model closest in time to Anshei Knesses Hagdolah and
therefore might be the key impetus.

Then AISI Hazal found other asmacthos

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 04:28:18PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: FWIW Daniel prayed thrice daily. If I were to guess I'd say that
: was probably the model closest in time to Anshei Knesses Hagdolah and
: therefore might be the key impetus.

: Then AISI Hazal found other asmacthos

Unless it was Daniel who did.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Gerson:
> Moshe's greatness was his humility.

Agreed but I think the key here is why:
> Bechol beisi ne'eman hu

AIUI - and I think Hirsch concurs - the issue is being an egoless
messenger of HKBH.

The last thing HKBH needed was a genius full of Hiddushim. HE wanted a
faithful secretary to transmit torah w/o embellishment. His anivus was
symbolized in the burning sneh.

The sneh is an anav that is not burned by the divine fire because it
lacks the shemetz of gaavah to get burned. As soon as it gets ga'avah
the fire will burn it (perhaps Nadav and. Avihu's issue)

Being an anav is always good but in Moshe's case it was a prerequisite
for transmiting Torah.

Lemashal Sha'ul came up with twists on what HKBH ordered and could have
triggered problems. Moshe had no ulterior motives. That is a form of
gadlus, too.

KT 
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

> ...davening Mincha late. I noticed the time only after I had already
> started to daven Shemone Esreh, and didn't know whether to continue
> or not....
> Harvey

To answer a Q with a Q or 2...

How late is TOO late? 
Just when IS the latest time to daven mincha?
What's the best  source for this latest time?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Wolf2191 (http://ishimshitos.blogspot.com) notes that Hirsch's uncle
Moses-Mendelsohn Frankfurter was a student of Wessely, and that there
exists untranslated correspondence between Hirsch and his uncle, toward
which he can direct the interested.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

Additional note from Wolf2191:

There exists an even deeper connection between Hirsch and Wessely; see
E. Breuer's speech on Haskalah from the Hirsch conference at Torah in
Motion.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

in relation to an off-list discussion where this expression was used about 
an O rabbi  who espouses a doctrine that many other O rabbis would 
consider foolish but not neccesarilly heretical,  i wonder if there are 
parameters for the use of this expression about jews, frum or not.
eg  does it apply to Ben Gurion? all non-Orthodox rabbis?  Rabbi Slifkin? 
the heads of Meshichism? one side of a Rebbe succesion dispute about the 
other?
i guess i'm asking if this is a term that should be thrown around lightly, 
and if there are codified limits...

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Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
> 
> in relation to an off-list discussion where this expression was used 
> about an O rabbi  who espouses a doctrine that many other O rabbis would 
> consider foolish but not neccesarilly heretical,  i wonder if there are 
> parameters for the use of this expression about jews, frum or not.

The previous LR, in a published letter (which is therefore hora'ah
larabim) uses that term about Mendelsohn.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

I posted the following back in January:

"I do not want to again bring up the topic of negiah and derech chiba which
has been discussed many times. However, i am looking for sources on its
application to relations by marriage, e.g. son-in-law and mother-in-law or
daughter-in-law and father-in-law.
A specific example. In a home on Friday night, where the father's minhag is
to give the birchat habanim and banot by placing a hand (or both hands) on
the head of the child, can he do so with his daughter-in-law? I could not
find sources. Any help or ideas?"

The only responses I received concerned giving a bracha at the bedeken
during the wedding. I was really looking for sources concerning a regular
Friday night and the minhag of birchat habanim/banot.
Any help would be appreciated.

David I. Cohen
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On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 08:07:33AM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: http://havolim.blogspot.com/2008/01/yisro-shemos-2011-ki-s
: heishes-yamim-why.html 
:  explains  drachim in why goyim, who should be chayav in zchiras borei 
: olam,  should be exempt from shabbos -that also recalls that event....


The author provides a few answers (Or Samei'ach, RMF, Sefas Emes,
Ponovizher Rav, a heara by R' Hutner, R' Reuven Feinstein) and finally
his own chiddush. Here's his summary of RRF's answer:
> Harav Reuven Feinstein says the pshat is like this: the first luchos
> say zochor and mention briyas ho?olom. The second ones say shomor and
> mention Mitzrayim. Goyim should commemorate/zachor Shabbos and are
> certainly not ne?enash for doing so. But shomor means issur melochoh.
> The issur melochoh only applies to Yisroel, because of our status as
> avdei Hashem that He acquired by taking us out of Mitzrayim. The
> purpose of the issur melochoh is to show that all our work is only to
> do what our master commands, and when he commands us to stop, we must
> stop. In fact, the issur melochoh only has a associative connection
> with briyas ho?olom. The causative basis for it is only yetzias
> Mitzrayim. So an akum that is shoveis from melochoh because of Shabbos
> is saying eidus sheker by claiming to be an eved of Hashem. He may
> choose to serve Hashem, but he is not His kinyon, His avodim, as we
> are.

Similarly, "Zakhor es yom haShabbos..." (Yisro) is connected to
"ki sheishes yamim asah H' es hashamayim ve'es ha'aretz", but
"Shamor" (Va'Eschanan) is "vezakharta ki eved hayisa".

BUT "VeShameru BY es haShabbos", while "beini uvein benei Yisrael os
hi le'olam" -- shamor linked to the Jewish people in particular -- it
returns to the theme of creation "ki sheishes yamim", NOT yetzi'as
Mitzrayim and "avadai heim".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 08:07:33AM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: http://havolim.blogspot.com/2008/01/yisro-shemos-2011-ki-s
: heishes-yamim-why.html 
:  explains  drachim in why goyim, who should be chayav in zchiras borei 
: olam,  should be exempt from shabbos -that also recalls that event....


The author provides a few answers (Or Samei'ach, RMF, Sefas Emes,
Ponovizher Rav, a heara by R' Hutner, R' Reuven Feinstein) and finally
his own chiddush. Here's his summary of RRF's answer:
> Harav Reuven Feinstein says the pshat is like this: the first luchos
> say zochor and mention briyas ho?olom. The second ones say shomor and
> mention Mitzrayim. Goyim should commemorate/zachor Shabbos and are
> certainly not ne?enash for doing so. But shomor means issur melochoh.
> The issur melochoh only applies to Yisroel, because of our status as
> avdei Hashem that He acquired by taking us out of Mitzrayim. The
> purpose of the issur melochoh is to show that all our work is only to
> do what our master commands, and when he commands us to stop, we must
> stop. In fact, the issur melochoh only has a associative connection
> with briyas ho?olom. The causative basis for it is only yetzias
> Mitzrayim. So an akum that is shoveis from melochoh because of Shabbos
> is saying eidus sheker by claiming to be an eved of Hashem. He may
> choose to serve Hashem, but he is not His kinyon, His avodim, as we
> are.

Similarly, "Zakhor es yom haShabbos..." (Yisro) is connected to
"ki sheishes yamim asah H' es hashamayim ve'es ha'aretz", but
"Shamor" (Va'Eschanan) is "vezakharta ki eved hayisa".

BUT "VeShameru BY es haShabbos", while "beini uvein benei Yisrael os
hi le'olam" -- shamor linked to the Jewish people in particular -- it
returns to the theme of creation "ki sheishes yamim", NOT yetzi'as
Mitzrayim and "avadai heim".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 11:14:03PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: The sneh is an anav that is not burned by the divine fire because it
: lacks the shemetz of gaavah to get burned. As soon as it gets ga'avah
: the fire will burn it (perhaps Nadav and. Avihu's issue)

I based Aishey's bar mitzvah derashah on one of RYBS's motza"sh talks,
which is all about the s'neh, Moshe's anavah, tzimtzum, and how it
showed MRAH's qualification to be av hanevi'im.

From <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/01/fire-within-bush.shtml>. Before
this quote, I discuss the "qol demamah daqah yishama"...

>     2: And Hashem's angel appeared to him in a flame of fire from the
>     midst of a bush; and he looked, and, here! the bush burned with fire
>     bo'eir ba'eish, and the bush was not consumed.3: And Moshe said,
>     "I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, madu'ah lo yiv'ar
>     haseneh -- why the bush does not burn."

>     4: And when Hashem saw that he turned to look, Hashem called him
>     out of the midst of the bush, and said: "Moshe, Moshe!" And he said:
>     "Here I am."

> In pasuq 2, a mal'akh appears to Moshe, and the bush is bo'eir
> ba'eish. However, Moshe turns aside from that vision. He turned to see
> that lo yiv'ar hanseh -- no, it's not really burning. There is a fire
> within the bush, only at the core. The mal'akh speaks mitoch, from within
> the bush. The truer revelation that Moshe rabbeinu saw beyond the angel
> was one if tzimtzum, Divine Constriction. When Moshe realizes this,
> the nevu'ah is elevated from a prophet's speech to an angel to Moshe's
> unique ability to speak "face to 'Face'" with G-d. Moshe merited this
> nevu'ah because he was "anav mikol adam -- more modest than any other
> man." His anivus is a reflection and imitation of that very tzimtzum,
> which is how Moshe alone would turn to take another look.

> The mal'akh appeared in the big, the flashy. The first glance made it
> seem that the whole bush was aflame. It's like the shofar gadol blowing,
> announcing Hashem's presence. The angel declared behimatz'o -- here and
> now Hashem could be found. But Moshe's response one to the qol demamah
> dakah, he saw Hashem limiting his presence to allow for a response, to
> demand derashah -- seeking Him out. Realizing that you must respond,
> that you aren't simply entitled, that is anivus. And therefore Moshe
> connected to the A-lmighty in a way no one else did before or since.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
mi...@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 07:18:54AM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: in relation to an off-list discussion where this expression was used about 
: an O rabbi  who espouses a doctrine that many other O rabbis would 
: consider foolish but not neccesarilly heretical,  i wonder if there are 
: parameters for the use of this expression about jews, frum or not.

I don't understand the full logic of the LR's applying this to
Mendelsohn. History of who he was and what he thought he was doing
aside, so I could focus on the general rule...

(Also, ironically for our conversation of "yemach SHEMO", Moses Mendelsohn
was named for his direct ben-achar-ben ancestor, R' Moshe Isserlis.)

His son Joseph Mendelssohn remained Jewish (he and Recha, the first two of
4 children, were the only ones who did). Was Joseph chayav to say Qaddish
11 months or not? Actually, if the father was definitely a heretic, maybe
it should be 12 months... What about remembering his father's yahrzeit?

The Rif obligates the mamzeir in kibud and yir'ah for his father, but
he may hit his father (until his father does teshuvah). The Rambam,
Chinukh and SA as well.

The Tur, Rosh and Rama do not require kibud until he does teshuvah. I
can't tell though if this is specific to this particular cheit, because
the parentage marks the son, or if they are saying there is no kibud
for a rasha. And thus, no qaddish.

If these memorial dinim are encumbant on the family of any Jew, how can
we ask that their efforts fail, erasing the person's memory? And if the
person should be forgotten, why would they have to violate that by saying
qaddish on their yahrzeit?

The Rama in particular, then, might say that since the descendents, if
any were still Jewish, would not have to memorialize his greatgrandson,
y"sh is appropriate. (If it's not about mamzeirus, but about the father
being a rasha.)

But the SA?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
mi...@aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpilei Tohar

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 07:18:54AM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: in relation to an off-list discussion where this expression was used about 
: an O rabbi  who espouses a doctrine that many other O rabbis would 
: consider foolish but not neccesarilly heretical,  i wonder if there are 
: parameters for the use of this expression about jews, frum or not.

I don't understand the full logic of the LR's applying this to
Mendelsohn. History of who he was and what he thought he was doing
aside, so I could focus on the general rule...

(Also, ironically for our conversation of "yemach SHEMO", Moses Mendelsohn
was named for his direct ben-achar-ben ancestor, R' Moshe Isserlis.)

His son Joseph Mendelssohn remained Jewish (he and Recha, the first two of
4 children, were the only ones who did). Was Joseph chayav to say Qaddish
11 months or not? Actually, if the father was definitely a heretic, maybe
it should be 12 months... What about remembering his father's yahrzeit?

The Rif obligates the mamzeir in kibud and yir'ah for his father, but
he may hit his father (until his father does teshuvah). The Rambam,
Chinukh and SA as well.

The Tur, Rosh and Rama do not require kibud until he does teshuvah. I
can't tell though if this is specific to this particular cheit, because
the parentage marks the son, or if they are saying there is no kibud
for a rasha. And thus, no qaddish.

If these memorial dinim are encumbant on the family of any Jew, how can
we ask that their efforts fail, erasing the person's memory? And if the
person should be forgotten, why would they have to violate that by saying
qaddish on their yahrzeit?

The Rama in particular, then, might say that since the descendents, if
any were still Jewish, would not have to memorialize his greatgrandson,
y"sh is appropriate. (If it's not about mamzeirus, but about the father
being a rasha.)

But the SA?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
mi...@aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpilei Tohar

A long , long time ago? I can still remember  http://www.aish
das.org/avodah/vol09/v09n071.shtml#01

Now I come across the apparently (according to a talmid of the Yeshiva I once occupied space at) famous chinuch ??? ?????? ???? ???? 
 ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??????, ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? 
So why is it not a good idea for men to be reminded as well?

KT
Joel Rich




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