Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 31

Sun, 08 Feb 2009

• 1. Bar'chu (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 2. Re: Bar'chu (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Fight or Flight? (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 4. Re: Brisk (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: shatz saying things out loud a.k.a silent ga'al (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 6. Child Abuse & Moser (Harvey Benton)
• 7. Re: Early morning minyan (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 8. Re: Ta'aroves of yayn mevushal (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 9. Re: ancient minhagim (T6...@aol.com)
• 10. Re: Ta'aroves of yayn mevushal (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Ta'aroves of yayn mevushal (Liron Kopinsky)
• 12. Re: Ta'aroves of yayn mevushal (T6...@aol.com)
• 13. Darchei Limud (Marty Bluke)
• 14. Tou Bishbat Is Tonight (Joseph Mosseri)

Most have sheva na
Yekkes insist no sheva na in reish because reish is gutteral like hets
or ayin. So yekkes have hataf patach.

There might be more sheetos but that's what I got so far

KT
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 05:38:47PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: Most have sheva na
: Yekkes insist no sheva na in reish because reish is gutteral like hets
: or ayin. So yekkes have hataf patach.

Not as significant as it seems, since RMBeuer holds that the chatufim are
just subtypes of sheva na. And similarly the chataf qamatz under the dalet
in Mordachai, which he has in his tanach. (Tiqunei Soferim are split.)

See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex
.cgi?section=M#MEGILAS%20ESTHER%20READING%20THE%20WORD%20MORDECHAI>
a/k/a <http://kitzur.com/fjlb>.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org        he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org   Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507      a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter

: "The Torah that God gave us is all inclusive, all-embracing, all
: pervading. It has the answers to all problems, even though we cannot
: always decode its language...."

Is it possible that G-d's torah is indeed complete but that we have only
partial access?

IOW toras Hashem temima implies that HKBH has a complete torah and on
HIS madreiga all is well.

Eg we cannot create a human with sefer yetzira only a golem
afaik. Implying we can go only so far.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

I was told that R chaim brisker was saving bachurim from college by
making gmara intellectually competitve

Was this hora'as sha'ah? I dunno.

I have always enjoyed brisker learning but I doubted its halachic veracity
early on.

[Email #2. -mi]

[RET:]
> There is a statement of RCS that sometimes Teshuvot of the Rambam are
> not helpful.
> This implies that Rambam would not always be happy with Brisk chillukim.

> RCS distinguishes between tefillat ha-tzibbur and tefilla be-tzibbur
> stressing its importance
> Nevertheless Rambam himself stopped tefillah be-tzibbur in Eygpt because
> it caused problems in shul. Obviously he didnt think it was that important

I ask those who are Rambam purists which one do they follow;
The rambam on mishen the .MT or his shu"t

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Re: v'imru at the end of the Amidah

Rambam omits it.  Just amen alone.

See Baer's Avodas Israel for details. He says that V'imru at the end of
the Amidah is an error copied from qaddish

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

RMSDratch wrote:
Furthermore, a? child abuser is worse than a meitzar and is in the category 
of rodef concerning whom one is permitted to do anything to stop the? attack.62 
(62 R. Moshe? Halberstam, Mesirah le-shiltonot be-mi she-mit?olel be-yeladav 
in Yeshurun 5765, p. 646.)

HB: Throughout this post, the word >permitted, is constantly used.? Even
in the quote above which likens an abuser to a rodef, the word
>permitted is used, but not >obligated.? Why is this the case?? Why
does the injunction of Al Taamod Al Dam Reiecha (esp in severe cases such
as child abuse) not override any possible concerns we may have of
committing Mesirah? 

Should we be more concerned with A: Our own nefashot committing an aveira
of possible Mesirah? or B: possibly having a suspected child abuser not
getting a fair trial, or obtaining a harsher penalty than Jewish courts
would apply if they had the power to?? or C: protecting current and
potential future individuals from being abused (and possibly sodomized--
which is a lav Midoraisa, and Chayav Mitah for the Abuser)?? HB

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I wrote:
> Switching chazanim between Baruch She'amar and Yishtabach
> doesn't retain unity. They don't have any unity to retain.

R' Micha Berger asked:
> Then how can we say the Qaddish after it?
> ...
> Let's say a group of people were learning different things
> in the same beis medrash. Someone gets up, and without the
> usual "R' Chanania ben Aqashia omeir" starts Qaddish
> deRabbanan. Was he correct? (And is the need for unity part
> of why we have the minhag of learning RCbAO?)
> I based this conversation on the assumption is that the
> answer is "no" -- that the positioning of this Qaddish is
> based on the tzibur finishing the unit of Pesuqei deZimra or
> the tzibur learning. And therefore the whole question of
> whether the minyan had a semuchah lechaverta or not became
> relevent.

Ohhhh! *Now* I understand your question!

My answer: I have no idea. I wish I understood the halachos of "When To Say Kaddish" better. But here are some ideas to explore which might help:

I think your attempt at connecting Baruch She'amar and Yishtabach is
distracting from the main issue. After all, we often say Kaddish after as
little as a single perek of Tehillim, such as by Shir Shel Yom.

This discussion helps me be a bit less peeved over one of my "pet peeves",
that of not having any sort of chazan at all at Kiddush Levana, yet
pretending that it is a congregational prayer by saying Kaddish Yasom at
the end. Your scenario about the Beis Medrash and Rebbi Chananya ben
Akashya suggests that even though everyone is saying Kiddush Levana as
individuals, and they're even saying Alenu at very different times, having
the one person say the last line aloud *might* be enough to warrant a
Kaddish.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Click to get the coolest ring tones on your phone, fast and easy
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R' Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> Why would the shiur that would pasul wine for use in the
> Beit Hamikdash affect its usability for AZ? The goyim don't
> follow our halachot.

to which R' Zev Sero responded:
> That is a long-standing puzzle.  Since they don't follow our
> halachot, why do we assume that cooking wine -- even boiling
> the life out of it -- would prevent them from using it for
> nisuch.  And yet that is exactly what we do assume.  I can
> only conclude that if it's pasul for our nisuch, then
> whatever they do with it doesn't count halachically as nisuch
> laA"Z, so we don't care. They can call whatever they do
> whatever they like, but we don't call it nisuch, so the wine
> remains permitted.

I too have been puzzled by this. I can't recall specific places, but on
many occassions, when I've tried to learn the origins of Yayin Mevushal and
related halachos, I often get confused by an apparent mishmash of what *we*
consider pasul for nisuch, and of what *they* consider pasul for nisuch.

But my resolution of that puzzle is a bit different than RZS's. It seems
that RZS is saying that "we don't care" what the AZ-niks actually do. My
suspicion is that we *do* care, as logically we must, because if they'd be
willing to do nisuch with yayin mevushal, then I can't imagine why we
wouldn't worry about it. But that's only l'halacha. L'maaseh, RZS is
correct that we don't need to study their religious laws, and the reason
why -- and I must stress that this is only my own conjecture -- is that
both we and they happen to have the same rules.

The concept of korbanos is ancient. It is from before Har Sinai, before
Avraham Avinu, even before Noach, going back to Adam Harishon. It is not a
particularly Jewish idea, but not a goyish idea either, but a human one. Of
course, the Torah expounds on it, and gives many details. But if some of
those details (like what kind of wine may or may not be used) happens to
match what the AZ-niks do, I wouldn't be surprised.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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From: Micha Berger _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:mi...@aishdas.org) 

>>OTOH, I  think the Rambam would agree with most applications of gavra vs
cheftza, if  he heard RCB present it. The reduction of the Rambam's art
to a  science.<<




>>>>>>
 
You remind me of Moshe Rabeinu not knowing what Rabbi Akiva was  talking 
about, and R' Akiva saying it's halacha leMoshe miSinai!  The story  implies that 
whatever Chazal were later to deduce was already implicit in the  Torah that 
Moshe received.
 

--Toby Katz
==========



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kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:

> It seems that RZS is saying that "we don't care" what the AZ-niks
> actually do. My suspicion is that we *do* care, as logically we must,
> because if they'd be willing to do nisuch with yayin mevushal, then
> I can't imagine why we wouldn't worry about it.

Because we don't call what they do "nisuch".  It's not that we don't
care what they do, but that we don't care what they call what they do.
Think about the Indian hair issue a few years ago; a major point in
the discussion was whether what they do with the hair counts
*halachically* as "tikrovet".  If it doesn't, then it doesn't matter
what they call it, or how they regard it, it's still muttar.


> we don't need to study their religious laws, and the reason why -- and
> I must stress that this is only my own conjecture -- is that both we and
> they happen to have the same rules.
> The concept of korbanos is ancient. It is from before Har Sinai, before
> Avraham Avinu, even before Noach, going back to Adam Harishon. It is not
> a particularly Jewish idea, but not a goyish idea either, but a human one.
> Of course, the Torah expounds on it, and gives many details. But if some
> of those details (like what kind of wine may or may not be used) happens
> to match what the AZ-niks do, I wouldn't be surprised.

Which AZ-niks?  *All* of them, throughout the world, and throughout
history?  This sounds like the yid who tries to enter an exclusive club
by claiming to belong to "the goyish religion".  Even the AZ cults with
which Chazal were familiar were widely different from each other, each
with its own peculiarities (such as Pe'or and Markulis).  It's unlikely
that all religions that use wine would have the same rules.  Certainly
the most common AZ nowadays that uses wine has *very* different rules
for its use, which are nothing like the ones with which Chazal were
familiar.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Regarding us having to consider the "halachot" of ovdei kochavim, R' Zev
Sero wrote:

I can only conclude that if it's pasul for our nisuch, then whatever they do
> with it doesn't count halachically as nisuch laA"Z, so we don't care. They
> can call whatever they do whatever they like, but we don't call it nisuch,
> so the wine remains permitted.
>

R Akiva Miller wrote:

> But that's only l'halacha. L'maaseh, RZS is correct that we don't need to
> study their religious laws, and the reason why -- and I must stress that
> this is only my own conjecture -- is that both we and they happen to have
> the same rules.
>
> The concept of korbanos is ancient. It is from before Har Sinai, before
> Avraham Avinu, even before Noach, going back to Adam Harishon. It is not a
> particularly Jewish idea, but not a goyish idea either, but a human one. Of
> course, the Torah expounds on it, and gives many details. But if some of
> those details (like what kind of wine may or may not be used) happens to
> match what the AZ-niks do, I wouldn't be surprised.


In my own speculation I have understood this differently. We believe that
any article used by an oved AZ would become assur for us to use, I am not
sure if any sort of bitul would be possible in a case like this. WRT Yayin
Mevushal, I have understood it to mean that we recognize that there are
certain laws by which the different AZ religions operate. These are not
necessarily the same as our rules however, based on an understanding of
their AZ "halachot" the chachamim realized that non-Mevushal wine was
effective and non-Mevushal wine was not. It would follow from this why it
would be okay for us to use Mevushal wine for Kiddush, as we still consider
it wine but recognize that the goyim don't. In order to make a geder around
using actual items of AZ, the chachamin made a gezeira around the items
considered effective by the ovdei AZ as that was a common concern.

Shavuah tov,
~Liron
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> 
> The opening case was that RRW has a nachriah  housekeeper. I don't know
> about you, but I know how to make a taaroves,  but I do not know how
> to cook wine without ruining it. I would think you  need equipment to
> insure the alcohol wouldn't get away. So lemaaseh in  someone's home,
> this solution may be the more pragmatic  one.

>>If you're diluting it 6:1 you're not adding mevushal to the  non-mevushal,
you're adding a tiny bit of left-over non-mevushal to a  nearly-full bottle
of mevushal.  Why bother?  For that little, why  not just leave it, and
take the risk that you might have to throw it away  *if* she happens to
move the bottle? <<
Zev  Sero                      

 
 
>>>>>>
 
I'm not sure if this solves the problem you're asking about, but on the  rare 
occasions that we have an open bottle of non-mevushal wine in the fridge on  
the day the cleaning lady comes, my husband makes his own seal -- he signs his 
 own name on a piece of paper and scotchtapes it around the top and neck of 
the  bottle, so that no one could open it without tearing the seal.
 
PS But I have a related question -- given that my cleaning lady has a key  to 
my house -- even though she usually only comes on Thursday -- do I have to  
worry about my non-mevushal wine all the time?  For that matter, do I have  to 
worry about bishul akum or about her somehow treifing my dishes, on the  
extremely remote chance that she would ever cook anything in my home when I  am not 
here (she never cooks so that is extremely remote, but theoretically she  
could).  Is there anything else I should worry about, since she has a  key?  (I 
am not worried about her secretly baptizing my children,  they're too old for 
that and she's not a Catholic anyway -- although she is  a devout Christian who 
reads the Bible every day.)
 

--Toby Katz
==========



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The Seridei Aish in both a teshuva and a published letter says that R'
Chaim's analyses are not historically true. He writes that it is clear
that the Rambam's derech was not R' Chaim's. All you have to do is
look at the Teshuvos Harambam where he deals with some of the
issues/contradictions. The Rambam never gives any lomdus to explain
his psak, rather he gives what we would call Baal Habatish answers. He
had a different girsa in the Gemara, their copy of the Mishne Torah
was wrong, he made a mistake, etc. Not once does he employ anything
close to Brisker lomdus.

TOU BISHBAT IS THIS SUNDAY NIGHT February 8, 2009.   

  _____  

Tu Bishbat: History and Customs

 
Joseph Mosseri

 

Tu Bishbat (?"? ????) is a minor Jewish holiday celebrating the New Year of
the Trees. It is one of the four Rashe Shanah ("New Years") mentioned in the
Mishnah. Tu Bishbat marks Rosh HaShanah La'ilanot (??? ???? ???????) "the
New Year of the Trees". The name Tu Bishbat comes from the date of the
holiday, the 15th day of Shebat (???). Shebat is the name of a Hebrew
calendar month and ?"?, read as "Tu," is how the number 15 is represented by
Hebrew numerals using the Hebrew alphabet.  This date generally falls on the
second full moon before Passover, or, in a leap year, the third full moon
before Passover.

 

            Tu Bishbat started out as merely the date used in calculating
the tithe on tree fruit, and evolved into a minor holiday.

            Tu Bishbat is not mentioned at all in the TaNaKH. The earliest
mention of it is the Mishnah which was completed around the year 200 CE.  In
fact even in the Mishnah it is only mentioned once in Masekhet Rosh Hashanah
1:1, which states there are four new years. Only two of the new years listed
have any observances associated with them today: Rosh Hashanah and Tu
Bishbat.

            The Mishnah states: There are 4 New Years. On the first on Nisan
is the New Year for Kings and for Festivals. On the first of Elul is the New
Year for the tithe of the animals, but according to Ribbi Eliezer and Ribbi
Shimon it is on the first of Tishri. On the first of Tishri is the New Year
for the years and for Sabbatical Years (Shemitah) and for Jubilee Years
(Yobel) for planting and for vegetables. On the first of Shebat is the New
Year for Trees, according to Bet Shammai, but according to Bet Hillel it is
on the fifteenth.

            We follow the opinion of Bet Hillel and observe the fifteenth of
Shebat as the New Year for Trees. Even so the Mishnah does not state
anything festive about this day nor does it mention any particular
celebrations or observances associated with this day. It is very probable
that this day took on a more special meaning when the Nation of Israel was
exiled from its land after the destruction of the Second Bet HaMiqdash
around 68 CE. After many years living outside of Israel this day added
another connection between the people and the land that their ancestors were
thrown out from.  That connection was none other than that of partaking of
the fruits of Eress Yisrael that Israel was blessed with.

 

            Over the centuries this custom became well known among Jewish
communities in every corner of the globe but it wasn?t until the 16th
century that this holiday was given a greater dimension. The Meqoubalim of
16th century Safed invigorated this holiday by prescribing what fruits and
nuts to eat and in what order. They also said that 4 different cups of wine
had to be drunk just like when the Hagadah would be recited on the night of
Pesah.

            These Meqoubalim were generally great Sephardic Rabbis who were
steeped in the mysteries of the Torah. They had a belief that Creation is
composed of four separate worlds, or levels. Classifying fruits that are
eaten on Tu Bishbat into these separate categories helped to symbolize these
levels.

The four worlds are: 

1.      Asiyah: "action" --- our world, the lowest level, 

2.      Yessirah: "formation" --- the second lowest level, 

3.      Beriah: "creation" --- next to highest level, and 

4.      Assilut: "emanation" --- highest and purest level. 

 

There are no fruits that could fit into the highest level but there are
fruits for each of the other 3 levels and it is preferable to have 10 fruits
for each level, corresponding to the 10 Sefirot.

Group number 1 is all fruit. BERIAH. Holiness at this level needs no
protection. (Some of the fruits included in this group are not actually
considered totally edible by most people, such as apples; small seeds are
ignored in the symbolism.)
The 10 items are: 
Grapes or Raisins
Figs
Apples
Etrog (Citron) 
Kumquat
Pear
Quince
Mulberry
Trilobed Sorbus
Carob

Group 2 outer fruit with a large center pit. YESSIRAH. These fruits are
edible on the outside, but have pits on the inside, such as peaches. The
edible portion symbolizes holiness. At this level, holiness can be left
exposed, but its inner core, its "heart," must still be protected.
The 10 items are: 
Olive
Date
Cherry (Must be sweet) 
Jujube
Peach
Plum or Prune
Apricot
Sour Morello Cherry
Hawthorn Berry
Loquat

Group 3 outer peel and inner fruit. ?ASIYAH. These fruits all have an
inedible outer shell, such as nuts. The edible part of the fruit represents
holiness. In our world, holiness is hidden and we have to seek it out. The
fragile holiness has to be protected within our world.
The 10 items are: 
Pomegranate
Walnut
Almond
Chestnut
Hazelnut
Acorn
Coconut
Pine nuts
Pistachio
another nut like Pecan, Brazil, Macadamia; or Banana.

There have been Sephardic Jews in every country over the last 350 years who
have been reading from a book entitled Peri Ess Hadar (Salonika 1753) and
following this ritual of eating fruits, drinking wine, and reading portions
of the TaNaKH, Mishnah, and Zohar.

Among Sephardim in different countries this holiday was given nick names
like:

Hamishosar, El Khabat, Eid El Shjar, Tafqi? El Sajar, Frutas, etc..

It was very common for special bags to be made for friends and neighbors,
and especially children and fill them with all types of dried fruits and
nuts. 

In old Jerusalem where the majority of the Jews once spoke Ladino trays of
fruit were sent as gifts like Mishloah Manot. These were known as Platiko.
The special bags as Frutas Bolsas and kids would compare what they got and
trade favorites with each other. These same customs existed in many other
countries as well but without the Ladino names.

Many people would just try and have as many fruits as possible just to
praise God and share this bounty with relatives and friends. Others would
take this opportunity to study the laws of Berakhot and teach them to all
those who celebrated with them.

In Aleppo Syria there was a special folkloric Judeo-Arabic song for this
holiday whose tune is still popular today even though most people have
forgotten the happy words. Another custom associated with Tu Bishbat in
Halab was the reading of the Aseret HaDiberot with the translation (Sharh)
of Se?adyah Gaon. This was done on Tu Bishbat in preparation of Perashat
Yitro and the giving of the Ten Commandments which is always the Shabbat
after Tu Bishbat.

Tu Bishbat is a happy day on which no Tahanunim are said it is a day that
reconnects us with the Land of Israel and there is a new custom (over 100
years old) to plant trees in Israel on this day. The tradition of planting
trees started in 1890 when the teacher and writer Zeev Yabetz went out with
his students in a school in Zikhron Yaaqob for a festive planting. This
initiative was adopted in 1908 by the Israeli Teachers trade union and later
on by the Land Development Authority (Haqeren Haqayemet LeYisrael, also
called the Jewish National Fund). Many Jews throughout the world call Israel
on this day and make donations to plant trees and forests through out Israel
on this New Year of Trees.

 

   Tizku Leshanim Rabot Ne?imot VeTobot!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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