Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 25

Sun, 01 Feb 2009

• 1. Re: shatz saying things out loud (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 2. answering Amen to various brachot (Shlomo Pick)
• 3. Re: answering Amen to various brachot (Michael Poppers)
• 4. Re: Early morning minyan (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: hatov vhameitiv/dayan haemet Inbox X (Saul Mashbaum)
• 6. Re: shatz saying things out loud (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: Ga-ahl Yisroel (Chanoch (Ken) Bloom)
• 8. Q re: RYBS shita (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: Q re: RYBS shita (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Names of the Parshios (AES)
• 11. Re: Permissible Flattery (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 12. Re: 10th of Teves on Shabbos (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 13. Re: Din Moser (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. Re: Permissible Flattery (Micha Berger)
• 15. Permissible Flattery (Harvey Benton)
• 16. Sewing on Motzai Shabbat - source (Danny Schoemann)

> Unfortunately I was not a talmid of R'YBS but in the area of chazarat
> hashatz I have taken on this practice - not because (as R'RRW points
> out) in my heart of hearts I think the halacha is not like the Rama, and
> not because of any beatification, but because I want to believe the
> concept of tfilat hatzibbur and what it conceptually represents (it's
> also a segula for not talking or learning during chazarat hashatz)
> KT
> Joel Rich

Questiion:

What if this concept of RYBS is a product of his fertule imagination
and really has no roots in the traditional way this concept has been
understood and passed down?

Or iow is this chidush or shinuy?

Or is this a legit seyag letorah - or CV more akin to an "aish zoro"
iow doing it because it feels right but is not what the halacha is
requesting us to do?

There are no easy answers.

But when I rely on tiime-tested tradition or a large cross-sectuon of
poskim my batting avg. Usually goes up.

Kt
RRW

Excuse my ignorance, but what is ?1-18:3??

A native sefardi knows how to distinguish between a kamatz and patach,
especially a kamatz gadol. Ashkenazim don?t ?hear? it, but it?s there.
Hence, a native Ashkenazi who switches to sefardit does not distinguish and
thus some posekim say he should continue saying the shem adnus with a
komatz.

I think the issue of minhag hamakom was taken up in the Avodah lists. Your
explanation will still support mine t

That the questioner should answer amen in all other places and rav teitz?s
pesak was not a general one. And since you come from Elizabeth, what is the
practice today where many an American is brought up with sefardi
pronunciation.  A ba?al teshuva or new native who has to daven for the amud
and was brought up with Sephardic pronunciation is not allowed to daven for
the amud?

Shlomo pick

???: Michael Poppers [mailto:MPopp...@kayescholer.com] 
????: Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:06 PM
??: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
????: Shlomo Pick; Jay F Shachter; R...@juno.com
????: Re: answering Amen to various brachot

 


(As before, forgive me (a) for being way behind in Avodah-digest reading;
and (b) if someone has mentioned this already....) 

In Avodah Digest V26#7, RSP wrote: 
> ...To this I received the following response and which was also posted in
areivim:
>> I lived in Elizabeth, NJ from 1968 to 1974. Rav Teitz regularly came on
Sunday mornings to daven in the Bais Yitzchok shul on Bellevue Street. (For
those who do not know much about Elizabeth, Rav P. M Teitz, ZT"L, was THE
rov of the city. He was the rov of the 4 Orthodox shuls in Elizabeth. See
 <http://tinyurl.com/63gryd> http://tinyurl.com/63gryd for more about Rav
Teitz and his amazing
accomplishments in building Orthodoxy in Elizabeth, NJ.)
>> One Sunday morning an obviously Sefardi fellow whom I had never seen
before
was davening for the Amud. After a moment or two Rav Teitz stopped him and
said, "You can pronounce any word the way you want except for HaShem's name.
You cannot say A--nai (that is, pronouncing a kamatz as if it were a pasach
as some Sefardim do.). You must say A--noi (pronouncing the kamatz with an
Ashkenaz pronunciation.) Your pronunciation is Chol for us and we cannot
answer Amen.... <<
[snip] 
> Rav teitz's ruling seems to be a da'at yachid only applicable to Elizabeth
(then?) and it would appear that what rav teitz did appears to be applicable
ONLY to his own town, just as he had the authority to prohibit meat that did
not his have approval to be sold there.  Nonetheless, I am not so sure other
posekim would hold of his pesak. < 
I would imagine that Rav Teitz zichrono livrachah (hereafter RPMT) was
correcting the SHaTZ solely on behalf of the q'hilah and for the sake of the
tzibbur that the SHaTZ was supposedly representing.  AFAIK, minhag hamaqom
(w/ the maqom being the community which was under the guidance of RPMT and
currently is under the aegis of listmember REMT) is that sheim Adnus must be
pronounced as indicated above (and not only during t'filah but also during
q'riyas haTorah, e.g. 1-18:3) in order to distinguish it as indicated above
(likewise, when the word is chol, e.g. 1-19:2, it must be pronounced with a
patach rather than a qamatz according to the pronunciation as indicated
above). 

In V26#10, RJFS wrote: 
> It is regrettable that R' Pinxas Teitz is no longer alive to defend
himself; perhaps one of his living descendants will speak for him,
because this psaq, assuming it is correctly reported, does not appear
to be well thought-out....And yet, R' Pinxas Teitx, if this story is
correctly
reported, publicly embarrassed someone rather than rely on this
normative halakha. < 
WADR, a violation of minhag hamaqom isn't a situation based on logic, and I
would not presume to question the need to stop a SHaTZ ex post facto and
ensure that he properly represented the tzibbur for the remainder of his
shlichus. 

A guten Shabbes and all the best from 
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

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RSP replied to me:
> Excuse my ignorance, but what is "1-18:3"?

Forgive my unorthodox citation shorthand. I'm referring to Pereq 18,
Pasuq 3 within the first book of Chumash, what an official Bible-citation
notation might refer to as "Gen 18:3."

> since you come from Elizabeth

I don't, but it is my community at the present time and has been for
some time.

> what is the practice today where many an American is brought up with
> sefardi pronunciation. A ba'al teshuva or new native who has to daven for
> the amud and was brought up with Sephardic pronunciation is not allowed to
> daven for the amud?

Anyone who wants to be a SHaTZ must (or at least should :)) hew to minhag
hamaqom as it applies to his shlichus, and if his personal minhagim/minhag
avos publicly conflicts, he must (or, again, at least should :)) shelve
those personal/family minhagim during the course of his community service
as SHaTZ. There are many aspects to this serious mission of shlichus,
some (and I emphasize some ;-)) of which have been documented online in
http://elmora.thejec.org/avodah/customs.pdf . Most violations of the
minhag are unintentional, and I dare say that many do not approach the
seriousness of the one under discussion, but violations they would be.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 04:13:00PM +0200, D&E-H Bannett wrote:
: As yishtabach is the b'rakha ending of pesukei d'zimra it 
: sounds more correct to switch afterward.   However, the old 
: minhag, and minhag of many to this day, is that there  is no 
: standing chazan for pesukei d'zimra.  The chazan goes to the 
: teiva before yishtabach so the kahal can answer Amen at the 
: end of pesukei d'zimra....

Can I flip this around into a question?

Shabbos morning, the Chazan will start at "Shochein Ad". How is the
berakhah hasumekhah lechavertah nature of Yishtabach preserved? (Why
doesn't this necessitate adding a "Baruch atah..." to the front of it?)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RMBerger:

>>
... causes are chal before effects,
except in the case of hasaras hamonei'ah, where gito veyado ba'im
ke'achas. At least that's the position of R' Amiel, the only
one I know who addresses it. See R' Ralph Frankel's summary at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n121.shtml#07>.

>>


This very idea is also found in Minchat Asher on Gittin by R. Asher
Zelig Weiss,  Siman 31;2 page 135, and in Siman 32 p 137 ff.

Brief paraphrase (of a small part of the extensive discussion):

As a rule, the cause precedes the effect, as elementary logic
dictates. However, chazal determined that a the procedure does not
have a positive effect but rather a negative one ( as in get isha or
get shichrur ), and  there is some factor which prevents it from
taking effect which the procedure would remove, we say the cause and
effect are simultaneous, and the preventing factor does not have the
power to prevent the action which comes to nullify it.


Saul Mashbaum

> Unfortunately I was not a talmid of R'YBS but in the area of chazarat 
> hashatz I have taken on this practice - not because (as R'RRW points
> out) in my heart of hearts I think the halacha is not like the Rama, 
> and not because of any beatification, but because I want to believe 
> the concept of tfilat hatzibbur and what it conceptually represents 
> (it's also a segula for not talking or learning during chazarat 
> hashatz) KT Joel Rich

Questiion:

What if this concept of RYBS is a product of his fertule imagination and
really has no roots in the traditional way this concept has been
understood and passed down?
===================

Answer - what is lost by doing this?
KT
Joel Rich
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On Thu, 2009-01-29 at 11:44 -0500, rebshr...@aol.com wrote:
> The Rav required saying Ga-ahl Yisroel outloud by the Shaliach Tzibbur
> with the congregation saying it out loud with him.   I believe that
> Rav Moshe had a similar P'sak but I do not have the source in front of
> me.   As to what to do if a congregant does not say Ga-ahl Yisroel
> with the Shaliach Tzibbur, I believe there are two valid positions.
> One could say Amen, for since it is L'Tzorach Hatefilah (according to
> some a required response) it is not considered a Hafsek between Geulah
> and Tefilah and is a true Geulah Arichtah, even more than Baruch
> Hashem Amein V'amein: or one could not respond with Amein to Ga-ahl
> Yisroel, just have in mind to fulfill one"s one hundred belessings
> (since one only needs Kavanah, not Ahmen to be Yotzei) and allow
> Semichat Geulah L'Tefilahto to trump saying Ahmen.

I don't know Ashkenazi minhag, but for sepharadim it's assur to even
wait in silence. If he finishes ga'al yisrael early, he continues
straight into shemoneh esreh. Is this not the case by Ashkenazim,
rendering the whole issue of 'amen' irrelevant?

--Ken

-- 
Ken (Chanoch) Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/

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Scenario:
A person arrives late to minyan. ShatZ is about to start repetition.

Q: acc to RYBS
 should person say his amidah along with shatz

Or 
Should person listen with feet together and have kavannah to be yotzei
via listening?
(May or may not be shomei'a k'oneh)

After all,If tefillas HATZIBBUR trumps, then maybe silent amida is
less important???

Kt
Rrw

Scenario:
A person arrives late to minyan. ShatZ is about to start repetition.

Q: acc to RYBS
 should person say his amidah along with shatz

=========================================
Kach mkublani and iirc R' A Ziegler quotes this in one of his "The
Halachik Positions"

KT
Joel Rich
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INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

My brother was asked by one of his high school students about the
names of the parshios in the chumash; specifically, who gave each of
the parshios their names.

I searched the archives and see that RAM had asked this question
several years ago
(http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n054.shtml#08) but I don't
believe anyone gave an answer.

KT,
Aryeh

R' Harvey Benton:
This past Shabbas in the city where I live, there was a printed poster
hung-up outside our shul, announcing that a Rebbe was in town. The Rebbe
was staying at a Gvir's house (who happens to be a VERY big Baal Tzedakah),
and stated about the Gvir, that he was a "Rishon Shebirishon BeChol Davar
Shebekdusha".? 

We know that Flattery in Yiddishkeit is not allowed, except under certain
circumstances such as complimenting a bride, to avoid physical harm, and
perhaps some other specific cases. ? 

Does this particular poster violate injunctions against Flattery?? HB
------------



KT,
MYG

"The Avudraham does indeed state that even if it would fall on Shabbos we
would fast becasue of B'etzem Hayom Hazeh. The Ohr Sameach to Hilchos
Taaniyos 5 has a fascinating source for this from Eruvin 40b, where the
Gemara has a Safek about a Bar Bei Rav who is fasting on Friday, whether he
should complete it. The question is why the Gemara had no such Safek
rega?rding a Taans Tzibbur, and the OS answers that during the time of the
Amoraim Kidush Hachodesh was Al Pi Cheshbon, and the only Taanis Tzibur
that can fall out on Friday is Asarah B'teves. Since one would fast Asarah
B'teves even on Shabbos, there was no question that one would be Mashlim it
from Friday into Shabbos"
- Doron

As quoted the logic above is flawed.  The assumption is that since they knew one would fast on Shabbos hypthetically....

But maybe all they knew was that the 10th was definitely the one fast that
was to be completed when started on Friday.  One may assume that w/o the
abudarham's extrapolation - which I posit is the result of a
confusion/conflatuon or a just a mis-understanding..

It's a brilliant idea, but it still all boils down to this:
Somewhere in history the fact that the fast is continued on Friday night
intil "nacht". Has led to the fanciful speculation that it would somehow be
fasted at alos on shabbos and not deferred until Sunday.

Kt
Rrw  



Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

"HB: Warning people is different than pronouncing him Chayav Mitah. You can warn people to stay away from him, but why put a death sententence "

I'm guessing that BOTH
RZS + RHB cab be correct.

Stam I would think a BD is required to make a death sentence.

OTOH if during "hot pursuit" probably kanna'I'm pog'm bo.

EG the alleged moser is about to "rat" out a frum person on his cell phone.  Bishas ma'aseh it would be mutar to rip it out of his hand!

Otoh if he is merely minding his own business then it would take a BD to remov his "life liberty or property" aisi.

Kt rrw
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:27:07PM -0500, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: I think one can draw a parallel to those Kesubos that were written in
: the time of the Gemara with an inflated amount - double or triple the
: actual Kesubah amount. Since everyone knew that to get the actual amount
: of the Kesubah one must divide by two or three, it's as if that lower
: number was written in the Kesubah, and it's understood that the higher
: number was written for appearance's sake...

I had a head-hunter tell me that about resume padding. I didn't go for
it (nor get the job).

Assuming an industry where that is true -- and I'm not asserting mine is
-- would it be mutar to exagerate on one's resume? I find that different
because even if common enough for the interviewer to mentally lob 25%
off one's resume, it's still not socially accepted. But I really have no
idea.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

R. Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
>>>I think one can draw a parallel to those Kesubos that were written in
> the time of the Gemara with an inflated amount - double or triple the
> actual Kesubah amount. Since everyone knew that to get the actual amount
> of the Kesubah one must divide by two or three, it's as if that lower
> number was written in the Kesubah, and it's understood that the higher
> number was written for appearance's sake. Similarly, in these cases, the
> expressions used are meant for "ornamental" purposes. If you want to get
> the true measure of the man, divide by two or three (Kol Makom L'fi
> Minhago).

HB: Why would that be allowed in a Ketubah which is a legal doument?? To avoid
?embarrasment?? Sheker?? Ganeivas Daas? 
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I recently discovered that my wife doesn't sew on Motzai Shabbes.

She informed me this was my mother's minhag.

My mother confirmed it, and clearly recalls her mother and grandmother
having this minhag.

I was wondering what the source of this minhag would be.

Thanks

- Danny


Danny Schoemann
Goldknopf 41/6, Ramat Shlomo, Jerusalem, ++972-2-571 0181
LinkedIn profile: http://linkedin.com/in/doniels
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