Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 23

Wed, 28 Jan 2009

• 1. sleeping on left side (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Shatz out loud (Steven J Scher)
• 3. Re: shatz saying things aloud (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 4. Nistar laws? (Steven J Scher)
• 5. torah lishma (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Torah & Knowledge (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 7. SHOMER PESA'IM HASHEM (Cantor Wolberg)
• 8. FW: Early morning minyan (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Torah & Knowledge (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: SHOMER PESA'IM HASHEM (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: SHOMER PESA'IM HASHEM (Ilana Sober Elzufon)
• 12. Re: Shatz out loud (Liron Kopinsky)
• 13. The recitation of Modim (rebshr...@aol.com)
• 14. Re: SHOMER PESA'IM HASHEM (Ilana Sober Elzufon)
• 15. Re: SHOMER PESA'IM HASHEM (Zev Sero)

from daily halacha

 It is beneficial for one to first sleep on one's left side and then
to switch to one's right side {because the liver is on the right side
and it will lean on and warm the stomach, helping for food to digest.
Then, one should turn to lie on the right side so that the digested
food will more easily pass out of the stomach.} One should also not
turn from side to side during the night. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 71:5,
Rambam Hilchos De'os 4



-- 
Eli Turkel

R'Eli Turkel
> As far as Modim, many poskim stress that the chazan should say modim
> derabban out loud.

D'Rabban or the regular Modim, that we say in the silent prayer?

R'ET
> I believe that R. Henkin strongly states this in his works. This also
> applies to the beracha
> of ga-al yisrael before shemone esre.

My understanding was that the reason for going sotto voce for ga-al 
yisroel was so that people wouldn't say 'amen', thus putting a hefsek in 
between the brachos of shema and the begining of Shemone Esre.

According to R'Henkin's shita, should one say Amen, and not worry about 
the hefsek, or should one not say amen, even though hearing (and being motzi) 
the bracha?


- Steve

-- 

"Rav 
believed that the congregation should hear every word of the hatzarat 
ha-shatz... including the Modim Anachnu.  This suggests that the Shaliach 
Tzibbur should also say Modim Anachnu aloud, rather than the common 
practice of saying it in a mumble while the tzibbur says the Modim 
d'Rabbanan".


As a shat afaik modim should be said aloud;

BUT I usually do so @ a reduced v olume whilst cong. Is doing modim derabbana.n.  Tri koli lo mishtam'ei...

However, if the shul waits for. Cong. To finish then I do full voice.

Fwiw MB requires no such wait

Fwiw 2 when I needed to drag out davening  on YK I used modim outloud to do so,
 
Kt
Rrw
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, R'Akiva Miller wrote:
> I'll close with two examples of laws which AFAIK are still in the
> nistar category: Leaving a sefer open causes forgetfulness, and a
> woman walking on fingernails causes a miscarriage. (If you don't like
> those for any reason, feel free to substitute the red rotel or your
> favorite bubba maaseh.)
>
> Who's to say that these are metaphysical? Perhaps the day is not far
> off when we'll learn their workings. Maybe we could at least
> demonstate them statistically today, if only we could isolate the
> interference and get a truly double-blind test. (Well, causing
> miscarriages is pretty dangerous, but you know what I mean.)

In general, the points made by R'Miller seem to make sense to me.  I write 
only to point out, as a research psychologist, that the first of these 
'bubbe maasehs' would be easy to test.  I don't hold out much hope for it 
being confirmed, but conducting the test would not be difficult.



***************************************************************************
Steven J. Scher              sjsc...@eiu.edu         Listen to WEFT 90.1FM
Department of Psychology     217-581-7269            www.weft.org
Eastern Illinois University 
Charleston, IL 61920         I would discuss the holy books with the learned
USA                          men seven hours every day.  That would be the
                              sweetest thing of all...

Being shared with R' EK's permission - the issue of needing to be not
self aware is fascinating as imho it informs on our oft discussed issue
of how change occurs within orthodoxy.
KT
Joel Rich 



        Dear Joel,
        One major difference is the way Reb Chaim viewed himself, as
opposed to some of the modern ideologues.
        Reb Chaim never expressed himself as somehow breaking with the
past (I referred to this in an article, see the Orthodox Forum's Lomdus
volume, p. 331). As I indicated, self-conscious revolution is a
phenomenon of the modern batei-midrash. In a recent article in the
magazine "Nekuda", Rav Yehuda Brandes (who is at the forefront of the
new approaches to learning) explicitly wrote that hte new learning
community needs to emphasize its differentness and stop trying to be a
part of the "stifling" classic style, which he attributes to the
"haredi" world (which to many is a damning epithet).
        Thanks for your interest,
        Elyakim Krumbein


THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090128/9448811c/attachment-0001.htm>

While preparing for a shiur I give every month, I came across this article 
by Rav Sharki:

http://roshy.org/articles/show.asp?id=114
(Hebrew)

What I found interesting was his quote of Onkelos on "Am Naval VeLo 
Chacham".

Onkelos: "Ama DeKabilu Oraita VeLo Chachimu"

Rav Sharki continues: "It is Chilul HaShem to think that ignorance is a 
condition for Yirat Shamayim".


Shoshana L. Boublil

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090128/2b8d32a0/attachment-0001.htm>

The following relates to the link that R' Micha gave: http://www.dafy
omi.co.il/azarah/insites/az-dt-30.htm
The concept of Shomer Pesa'im Hashem only applies to people who cannot  
help themselves.
As any psychologist or psychiatrist will tell you, there are people  
sufficiently disturbed mentally
where they cannot be held responsible (as we would) for committing  
suicide. My question is:
Why didn't HaShem protect them?  To answer He only protects fools but  
not mentally ill people would
not be a satisfactory answer in our enlightened day and age. Also, to  
commit suicide is certainly a foolish act,
so why wouldn't shomer pesaim HaShem come into play?

P.S. After understanding the concept of SPH, I understand why I'm  
still alive.

ri


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090128/f5a8f311/attachment-0001.htm>

 

                Shut She'eilat Shlomo -  Questions of Jewish Law

                Early Davening

                Question: I need to be at work early, requiring me to
daven before the earliest time to put on Talit and Tefillin.  Which is
preferable - to put them on without a blessing and before Barechu move
them and recite the blessing or put them on before Barechu?

                Answer: Either way is acceptable.  This exact question
is discussed by Rav Ovadiah Yosef in Shut Yechaveh Da'at vol. 2 #8.

                 ========================================

                 

                In that shuva R"OY seems to me to say that one waits
until after yishtabach to put on tfillin

                1. Are there any sources which speak to the "either way
is acceptable?"

                2. Why is the general (as I understand it) custom to
switch shlichei tzibbur (e.g. more than one avel) before yishtabach
rather than right after?
                
                Kol Tuv

                Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090128/f51f47c3/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 02:50:36PM +0200, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
: Rav Sharki continues: "It is Chilul HaShem to think that ignorance is a 
: condition for Yirat Shamayim".

    Ein bur yerei cheit
    velo am ha'aretz chasid
        - Hillel (Avos 2:5)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 08:02:18AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: As any psychologist or psychiatrist will tell you, there are people  
: sufficiently disturbed mentally
: where they cannot be held responsible (as we would) for committing  
: suicide. My question is:
: Why didn't HaShem protect them? ...

Why do we find shelichei mitzvah who are r"l nizaqin?

I think it's for the same reason that Aristotle never discovered the
law of conservation of momentum. The law exists, but in real examples
there is almost always other factors involved. Gravity, friction, etc...
convert that momentum into other unrecognizable forms. (Typically the
momentum of molecules as heat.)

In the real world, there are so many factors that go into defining
"letav avad", we can't take any other rule and ask why it doesn't
always dominate.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
mi...@aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

RRW:* *The concept of *Shomer Pesa'im Hashem* only applies to people who
cannot help themselves.
>
> ...there are people sufficiently disturbed mentally where they cannot be
> held responsible (as we would) for committing suicide. My question is: Why
> didn't HaShem protect them?  To answer He only protects fools but not mentally
> ill people would not be a satisfactory answer in our enlightened day and
> age. Also, to commit suicide is certainly a foolish act, so why wouldn't *shomer
> pesaim HaShem *come into play?
>

I think shomer pesa'im H' applies to actions that carry a pretty low risk.
For example, riding in a car without a seatbelt or riding a bike without a
helmet, or snowboarding. Most people who do this will be just fine, even
without Divine intervention. So if a person acts this way out of
foolishness, H' protects him. But jumping off a bridge or shooting oneself
is an action that carries an almost certain risk of death. I don't think
shomer pesa'im H' means that G-d will do a nes to save a person who does
something super-dangerous.

Shomer pesa'im also applies only to normal actions that normal people do
(once upon a time, this included not using seatbelts and helmets; normal
people still snowboard). B"H most normal people do not attempt suicide.

- Ilana
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090128/43bdcd24/attachment-0001.htm>

>
> My understanding was that the reason for going sotto voce for ga-al yisroel
> was so that people wouldn't say 'amen', thus putting a hefsek in between the
> brachos of shema and the begining of Shemone Esre.
>
> According to R'Henkin's shita, should one say Amen, and not worry about the
> hefsek, or should one not say amen, even though hearing (and being motzi)
> the bracha?
>

I heard quite recently that it is a relatively common psak to say Yisrael
out loud and to rely on the kehilla saying the bracha with the chazzan to
avoid the hefsek. However, if they do not say the bracha with they should
still not say Amen as m'samchim geula l'tefilla trumps saying Amen.

KT,
~Liron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090128/546f7800/attachment-0001.htm>

The Rav required the Shaliach Tzibbur to wait after saying Modim Anachnu
Lach for the congregation to say Modim D'rabbanan and then the Shaliach
Tzibut would continiue saying the regular Modim fully and out loud.?? As
was stated, this is because the Rav viewed Chazarat Hashatz as Tefilat
Hatzibur, a communal offering which everyone must listen to.? You can often
(though not always) determine who were students of the Rav by whether they
are standing with feet together and Talit over there heads during Chazarat
Hashatz.?? One of my greatest joys is standing thusly with my two sons
standing similarly by my side during Chazarat Hashatz.??? You can find
reference to the Rav's position in the second volume (I believe) of
Halachik?Positions of Rabbhi Joseph B. Soloveitchik by Rabbi Aharon
Ziegler.?? What is unclear is what to do when the Shaliach Tzibur does not
give the congregation enough time to say their Modim; does one simply
listen to the Shaliach Tzibbur and skip it, or say i
 t anyways and miss some of the words of the Shaliach Tzibbur.?? I would love to hear from other students of the Rav as to what they do.

Kol Tov,

Stu Grant
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090128/14ea0af1/attachment-0001.htm>

One way to understand shomer pesa'im H' is to think about the alternative
outlook.

There are people who are obsessed with achieving maximum safety for
themselves and their kids. They hire babyproofers to go over every inch of
their house to make sure there is nothing that could conceivably be a
hazard. They are constantly reading the latest information on what food is
good for you, bad for you, might conceivably have too much mercury or
pesticides, might reduce your risk of cancer by 1%. They take vitamins,
never go outside without sunscreen, religiously undergo every recommended
medical screening, don't let their kids walk anywhere alone, etc.

I think this attitude is derived from a conception that it all depends on
us. Only we can prevent some terrible accident or disease from striking our
family. No One is watching out for us.

However, if one has an attitude that H' runs the world and that He watches
over us, and there is hashgacha pratit (I know - machloket rishonim about
how much and for whom), than one can be a bit more relaxed. One can say,
I'll live my life normally, do the regular things that everyone does, and
rely on HKBH to make sure nothing dire happens (unless, of course, He davka
wants it to happen...). That outlook is shomer pesa'im H'.

Of course this is based on doing normal regular things that everyone does
all the time, and that changes with time and society. Smoking used to be in
this category; it may no longer be. Similarly riding without seatbelts. But
I think going outdoors for a little while without sunscreen, or eating tuna
fish, are still in that category.

With safety, perhaps one should take the middle road. On the one hand -
v'nishmartem me'od l'nafshoteichem. I am definitely in favour of seatbelts,
sunscreen, helmets, and healthy food - I'm not trying to denigrate them! But
on the other hand - realize that we are not in control. A terrible
catastrophe can ch"v strike the most careful person, and a person who is not
particularly careful can live to 100. G-d runs the world and we don't.
Knowing that lets us relax a bit and act normal. Shomer pesa'im H'.

- Ilana
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090129/790b4f0a/attachment-0001.htm>

Ilana Sober Elzufon wrote:

> Of course this is based on doing normal regular things that everyone 
> does all the time, and that changes with time and society.

As I pointed out recently, the full phrase is "kevan dedash dash, veshomer
peta'im Hashem".  The reisha is important; if it's not "dash", then there's
no "shomer peta'im" (unless, I suppose, we're talking about an actual "peti").
Which is why the gemara says that it's OK to be bled on a Friday, even though
Mars is dominant at an even-numbered midday hour, but it's not OK to do so on
a Tuesday, even though the danger is *exactly the same*.  The only difference
between Tuesday and Friday is that people do get bled on Fridays but not on
Tuesdays; and that difference is what makes Hashem protect us on Fridays, to
the extent that it's muttar lechatchila to ignore the danger, but it's not
OK to ignore that very same danger on Tuesdays.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 23
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."