Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 22

Tue, 27 Jan 2009

• 1. Re: Open Door Policy (Yosef Skolnick)
• 2. Re: Skipping ya'alhe veyavo (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 3. Re: Our Attitude towards Segulos (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 4. schechinah in the west (M Cohen)
• 5. shatz saying things out loud (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: Aruch Hashulchan Yomi (Jonathan Baker)
• 7. Re: VBM-LISHMAH -01: Why Our Generation Needs Torah Lishmah (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Re: Ramban - Love your fellow as yourself (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: shatz saying things out loud (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: Skipping ya'alhe veyavo (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 11. Re: Caravan (Shayara) (Micha Berger)
• 12. Currency and Bond Trading; Ribis (Harvey Benton)
• 13. Re: Aruch Hashulchan Yomi (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 14. Re: Aruch Hashulchan Yomi (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 15. Re: Aruch Hashulchan Yomi (Micha Berger)

>
>    This could also be a situation where the husband isn't in the city, and
> that doesn't just have to mean he's traveling. According to sefer Minchat
> Ish on Hilchot Yichud, ba'alah ba'ir applies to areas that people call by
> the same city name. This leads to the rather paradoxical situation that one
> rabbi in Chicago whose shul is a half mile away from his home, on the
> Evanston side of the Evanston-Chicago border, would not be ba'ir if his wife
> were expecting a repairman and he was at shul. On the other hand if he were
> over 20 miles away on the Chicago side of the south border of the city he
> would be ba'ir.
>
> Isn't chicago broken up further into different areas?  Meaning that each
different section isn't so large as to necessitate the differentiation that
you are making.

>
> Besides that, wouldn't the repairman also have to have ishto imo, not just
> ba'ir? (Or does either of these halachot suffice to permit yichud?)
>
> --Ken
>
> In this case, I believe the fact that he is someone who is involved in his
profession, and wouldn't risk his reputation, would help to remove him from
this issue.

Yosef
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R' Shlomo Pick:
> This would be a good place to note to the chazzanim that they should say the
> Kaddosh kadosh, baruch kevod, and preferably yimloch hashem, as well as
> yehei shmei rabba of their kaddeishim, and the baruch hashem hamevorach of
> barchu aloud after the congregation (or louder than the congregation with
> them) to be motzi all those people who have not finished shmone esrei and
> stop to hear the keddusha, kadish or borchu and want to be yotzei these
> tefillot bezibbur.  The chazzan does no service (and is almost useless) if
> they can't be motzi the people who are most in need for these things, and
> nowadays it is mostly those people still caught in their shmone esrei.
> Anyone who can influence the chazzanim and shlichei zibbur to raise their
> voices will be mezakeh the zibbur for real tefilla bezibbur and be zoche to
> a reward corresponding to all those kiyyum mizvot that will result.

Although RMF (in IM, OC III #4) says like you do (at least as far as
Kedushah is concerned), I'm told that R' Yaakov Kamenetsky disagreed,
so Yeish Lahem Al Mi Lismoch.

KT,
MYG

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> But this is saying that HQBH does this without stepping
> beyond teva. The complexity of what we experience will
> always be at least a little beyond our ability to explain
> it.

> Which is why I again see no need to posit a second system,
> one which the person would have to first be a maamin to even
> accept the basics of. Haniglos lanu ulvaneinu... vehaAretz
> nasan livnei adam... etc... We're given the power to
> engineer based on physics, not metaphysics.

> So I do not see how one can simply posit it's in the same
> role. Again, two distinct reasons:
> - why bother having two sets of laws serving the same purpose?
> - why have laws that aren't given to man as nigleh/aretz
> for us to work and plan with?

I'm not sure of your main point. Do you feel that there are two systems, two groups of laws, the nigleh and the nistar? Or do you feel that they are all one?

My feeling is that there is but one group. HaShem set up all the laws of
teva in the beginning, and chooses to abide by them ever since. The only
difference between the nigleh laws and the nistar laws, is that we
understand the former, but we do not understand the latter. At least, not
*yet*.

(Disclosure: I'm actually uncertain about this. It is possible that HaShem
does indeed change things as time goes on. It is possible that a hundred
years ago, an electron truly was the smallest object, and that HaShem did
not introduce quarks until later. But that's a discussion for another
thread.)

But the question of your last line is still valid:

> - why have laws that aren't given to man as nigleh/aretz
> for us to work and plan with?

In other words, why did HaShem put certain laws into the running of the
physical universe, and hide them from us? Because it is our job on this
earth to discover them.

I'd like to mention some laws, and please consider whether they were given to man as nigleh:

--- E=mc^2

--- Inertia

--- Gravity

--- To every force there is an equal an opposite reaction.

I feel these are good examples of things which were very very nistar, and became nigleh only after very protracted study and experimentation.

Regarding the third of those, for how long did people believe that heavy
objects fall faster than light ones? (I'll give you a clue: In 1971, people
watched breathlessly as the commander of Apollo 15, on the surface of the
moon, dropped a hammer and a feather simultaneously, on live tv.)

Regarding the fourth, I'd like to remind the audience how the last of these
was very hotly debated. Many physicists held that a rocket would not propel
an object in a vacuum, for lack of any air for the rocket to push against.

I think it is an error to consider these to be two distinct sets.

In reality, it seems to me, all of these laws are in a single group:
Originally nistar, it is Man's job to discover them and use them. Mil'u es
haaretz v'kivshuha. Figure out how it works, and get it to work well.

I don't know how much of this was given as nigleh to Adam Harishon. He must
have gotten something, else how could he have understood the animals well
enough to name them? But there was also a lot he did not know, or quickly
forgot, or did not pass on. All this was (or became) the nistar.

I'll close with two examples of laws which AFAIK are still in the nistar
category: Leaving a sefer open causes forgetfulness, and a woman walking on
fingernails causes a miscarriage. (If you don't like those for any reason,
feel free to substitute the red rotel or your favorite bubba maaseh.)

Who's to say that these are metaphysical? Perhaps the day is not far off
when we'll learn their workings. Maybe we could at least demonstate them
statistically today, if only we could isolate the interference and get a
truly double-blind test. (Well, causing miscarriages is pretty dangerous,
but you know what I mean.)

Indeed, as RMB quoted Arthur C. Clarke,
> Any sufficiently advanced technology is
> indistinguishable from magic.

I have little doubt that R' Elya Lopian was mechaven to that when he
compared broken letters in a mezuza to broken wires of a radio. That one is
now useless for music, and this one is now useless for shmirah.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Click for discounted saunas.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/
PnY6rbvK0O0ZxmIYT34tyruS8iuzudurHb3lbr0jPpPnbZtmS0K9c/

tangential to this topic..

someone recently mentioned to me that the center of civilization 
(political power) has been moving westward thru history

..Mideast to Europe to England to America to china/FarEast

is there any torah source or torah understanding of this?

mordechai cohen

> R' Steven J. Scher:
>> on a related note: The Soleivetich machzor points out that the Rav
>> believed that the congregation should hear every word of the hatzarat
>> ha-shatz... including the Modim Anachnu.  This suggests that the Shaliach
>> Tzibbur should also say Modim Anachnu aloud, rather than the common
>> practice of saying it in a mumble while the tzibbur says the Modim
>> d'Rabbanan.
>
R'MYG:
> The Rav might have been referencing MB 124:41.

<<If I recall correctly, the Rav made the point that the repetition was
always as if you were saying the prayer yourself.  Therefore, he rules
that one should stand for the whole repetition.  See the Rema at 124,seif
4 and the MB there (20).>>

The Brisker shita starting with R. Chaim is that Tefilla be-tzibbur is really
Tefilla Hatzibbur and so one should listen to every word to be yotze this
shemonei esre preferably standing with one's feet together. RYBS would
stand like this for the entire shemone esre of the chazzan on YK.
The story is that in his later years he would be mattir neder before each
YK because of his back problems but would end up standing anyway.

As far as Modim, many poskim stress that the chazan should say modim
derabban out loud.
I believe that R. Henkin strongly states this in his works. This also
applies to the beracha
of ga-al yisrael before shemone esre.
The general theory is that the chazzan says things on behalf of the
congregation and so
it doesnt make sense for him to say it it privately.

BTW as a historical anamoly one of the things a chazzan should say
privately is the
prayer of "hineni harash" befor ethe shemone esre on RH/YK. This is
his private prayer
that everything come out okay. Instead it has become one of the piyyutim where
chazzanim show off their voice.



-- 
Eli Turkel

From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Aruch Hashulchan Yomi

Everything old is new again.

> On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 03:01:56AM -0800, Dovi Jacobs wrote:
> : 1. A daily study program should cover the entire Shulchan Aruch.
 
> : There are three major sections missing in the printed versions of the
 
> : Not surprisingly, the current study program skips the missing parts.

Maybe use a different book for the missing parts?  Say, the Tur, or
Tur/BY?  An awful lot of what the AhS does is explaining the Gemaras
and Rishonim behind any given halacha.

> : 2. A daily study program should be of reasonable daily quantity.

MMGH was about 1:10 for me, which I managed to keep up for about
a year.  20 min. each for AhS, Amud Yomi, and Half-Perek, and 10 
for the machshava sefer.  The lack of a shiur, group reinforcement,
etc., led to most of it dripping away, until only the Amud Yomi was
left after about 1.5 years. (135 days Brochos, 314 days Shabbos, 44
days Eruvin by time I gave up).  I will say that the 7 paragraphs
of AhS greatly improved my Hebrew reading - gemara isn't reading,
and the mikra and machshava were generally in English.
 
> : The current AHS study cycle is based on the simple idea of one
> : siman-per-day...
 
> This is leshitasi, along with the skipping you mention above, as well as
> why I did not choose something like an amud yomi. I didn't want a

That 7 paragraphs in 20 min. means no more than 20 paragraphs an hour, and
a lot of perakim are way longer than that.

I didn't do it because it just seemed way way too much.  My eyes glaze 
over long before the end of a siman, and trying to keep all the variables
in my head is too much.

> Yes, it would be more complete to imitate the Daf Yomi's choice of
> including Y-mi Sheqalim by picking a similar seifer. But that creates
> greater depency, and thus greater chance of failure..

Well, you could send out Word files, based on Bar-Ilan.
 
> What would this "middle-ground" length be? 15 min?

That's pretty short, to me.  Daf Yomi shiurim around here tend to be
30-50 min, depending how hard/long the page is.  I suppose, to do 
Daf Yomi in a way that it has any chance of sinking in, one ought to
review yesterday's page, learn today's page, and then go to the shiur
to reinforce it.  Which would take more like 2 hours.  Do many people
do that?
 
> : 3. Flexible topics.
 
> I do not see how this matches with #1. The nice things about a program
> that covers all of halakhah is that left to my own devices, I'm quite
> likely going to skip or gloss over those very dinim I personally need
> the most work on. Whatever avoidance mechanism one has for shemirah
> would be invoked for limud as well.

Oh, I dunno, I tried once to do the Plain Shulchan Aruch Yomi (cover
the whole thing in a year).  But I started somewhere in Choshen Mishpat,
and it was a bunch of dry stuff about contracts, and like what, is this
Torah?  Or is this just some bunch of stuff about general contracts as
they were in Medieval Europe?
 
> Therefore only flexibility I could see as appropriate is as follows:
> : On the other hand, the bulk of material in Even ha-Ezer and Choshen
> : Mishpat is truly meant for dayyanim (except for the first part of EE that
> : is relevant to mesadrei kiddushin). There are obviously some halachos
> : in EE and CHM that are highly relevant to all, but not the vast majority
> : of topics.
 
> Two programs: one that skips those inyanim that aren't nogei'ah to the
> "balebas". Kind of like those topics that wouldn't be touched in the QSA
> if it were being compiled today. (Melichah is in the QSA, which made sense
> even a century later [1949] but I don't really see the lemaaseh for most
> people any more.) And one that allows a review of kol haTorah kulah.

My mother says her grandmother did melicha, but by the time she was growing
up (1940s), her mother got pre-salted meat.  So she doesn't actually remember
seeing it done.  I asked her a few weeks ago if she could show me how 
melicha is done, but this was what she answered.
 
> Or, the relevent portions of EhE, CM and YD in a single cycle for a
> "lemaaseh" version?

What's relevant?  Milve/loveh, nezek, eidus, dayanim
 
> I wanted to research how many se'ifim this means, but I decided RDJ
> was probably giving up on getting a reply altogether, and I shouldn't
> keep him waiting.

Hmm, don't see it happening directly with Bar-Ilan, but maybe you could
write to them and see if they have a database or something they could 
report from?
 
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
 
> I woyld love to see a program for R. A Danzig's big 3 namely chayei
> adam, chochmas adam, and zichru toras moshe. (Ztm)

There's a thought.  Isn't that more or less what R' Danzig meant them for,
the workingman who couldn't spend more than 3 hours a day on Torah?
 
> Chayei adam is aisi about half way between SA and AhS.

Closer to SA, but you do have the teshuvos which expand on stuff.
 
> Chochmas Adam has new edition for niddah and issur v'heter that is
> highly user freindlly.  Anyway chochmas adam is great summarizer bichlal.

Yep.  Wayne (mutual friend with RRW; RMB knows him) & I were learning BBH
in AhS for a while, and at the end of a perek, we'd review with Chochmas
Odom.
 
--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjba...@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

 


________________________________


        

        YESHIVAT HAR ETZION
        ISRAEL KOSCHITZKY VIRTUAL BEIT MIDRASH (VBM)

        *********************************************************

        TORAH LISHMAH - A NEW HORIZON

        By Rav Elyakim Krumbein

        The htm version of this shiur is available at:
        http://vbm-torah.org/archive/lishmah/01lishmah.htm
<http://vbm-torah.org/archive/lishmah/01lishmah.htm> 

        

        Shiur #1: Why Our Generation Needs Torah Lishmah

        

        A. Contemporary Torah Study: Tradition and its Neglect

                    Our generation struggles a good deal in its attitude
toward Torah study.  Thank God, there are many who engage in Torah, but
many also question the significance of Torah in their lives.  Many feel
a sense of commitment, but there is also an overbearing sense of
alienation.  The perceived disconnect between Torah and the areas of
meaning and relevance in real life prevents students from experiencing
joy, fulfillment and satisfaction, and also diminishes from their
intellectual achievement in Torah.

                    Different strategies have been proposed to deal with
this problem.  Today, we seem to be witnessing the emergence of an
approach calling for new methods in learning Torah, specifically with
regard to Gemara.  Methods drawing inspiration from the world of the
sciences and literature have begun to spread.  Each halakhic topic is
expected, methodologically, to reveal its experiential, inner core and
philosophical depth through the use of these media.  

        What distinguishes our generation in this regard is that the new
approaches do not add a new dimension onto the accepted approaches to
learning, but rather seek to replace and supplant them.  Modern-day
teachers and students question the power of the traditional style of
learning, which has been transmitted from one generation to the next for
millennia, and prefer approaching the sources on an entirely new basis,
asking questions that have never before been asked.  Typical of this
approach is a comment attributed to a certain contemporary Rosh Yeshiva
claiming that when a generation does not study in the method that
specifically suits its needs, this constitutes bittul Torah (taking time
away from Torah study).  One would be hard pressed to find even an echo
of such a concept in earlier generations.

                    

        
=============================================================

        There's a certain irony imho that this sounds like what was said
about R' Chaim ("the chemist") by his contemporaries in the orthodox
world.

        KT
        Joel Rich

         

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To give this amodern spin:

Think of all humanity as leaves on a.  Bi.g tree.  Would one leaf be jealous of another?  Rather th ikkar is to get nourishment of the root/shoresh viz. Hkbh

Or if you will we are all sailors on a ship.  If we harm our dellow our own survival  is in jeopardy.   

Point:	our common good exceeds our uniqueness and it behooves to seek the
geberal good over our own wgo based desires.  Fwiw bill clinton has
preached a similar sermon many times.

However, our common good need not crush the individual.  Just crush our own egotism.

Also see art of loving by erich fromm.

Kt
Rrw
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

"BTW as a historical anamoly one of the things a chazzan should say
privately is the
prayer of "hineni harash" befor ethe shemone esre on RH/YK. This is
his private prayer
that everything come out okay. Instead it has become one of the piyyutim where
chazzanim show off their voice."

Fwiw yekkes STILL do "hinneni heakoni mima'as"  privatley for both shacharis and musaf of rh and all 5 tefillos on yk.

Aiui yekkes are more rigid and less prone to innovation.  In this case - as with many others - preserv ing the OLD minhag is the better way to go aisi.

KT
RRW


Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

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On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 05:30:02AM -0500, Gals...@aol.com wrote:
> I am curious to know how the Gemara learns that a Shayara (Cravan)
> is not less than three. I read it in Bavli Eiruvin 16, and also in the
> Yerushlami where it says "Ein Shayara Pachot Mishlosha" (a caravan is not
> less than three). I was surprise to find no source, while I could find
> source for the phrase "yamim Rabim" (many or several days) = three days,
> and in Ketuvit 75 "Rabim" (many or several) = three, etc.

I have no maqor either, I could just tell you how I rationalized it when
learning the sugyah. And in fact, both with the same explanation.

Lashon yachid = 1

Lashon rabim with no modifier >= 2

So, when you have a word for a group, you can assume the word is being
used because the group is >= 3. IOW, there would be no reason to use
the adjective "rabim" if it were only two. Similarly, if it meant even
two wagons, wouldn't the natural language have been agalos?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke

R. Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
>>My father's chiddush was to point out that if halacha does not
recognize the legal fiction, then the borrowers are the citizens of the
Israel -- all of them -- for whom the government acts as elected
representatives.? In that case, the amount of money borrowed must be
divided by the number of Israeli citizens.? This works out to less than
a p'ruta per citizen, and for a loan of less than a p'ruta there is no
issur ribbis. 

Thus, mah nafshach: either there is no Jewish
borrower at all, or each borrower borrows less than a p'ruta. Either
way, a hetter iska is unnecessary.

HB:? We know that one of the reasons the Dor Hamabul was punished
(destroyed) was because of theft.? They would engage in stealing less than
the shiur amount that would make them liable for an aveira, but nonetheless
it was stealing, and it was frowned upon by Hashem.? Given this, why would
we allow or set up a situation whereby potentially millions of Jews (Jewish
Israeli citizens) would be oiver on the intent (if not the actual halacha)
of a Lav Mi'Dioraisa, namely Ribis?? 
(Note: we allow someone to eat and drink on YKippur (less an a shiur at a
time) in cases of need, but this is not lechatchila situation, it does not
involve millions of Jews, and it is only approved on a case-by-case
basis.)? HB
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:24:03 -0500 (EST)
"Jonathan Baker" <jjba...@panix.com> wrote:

...

> the whole thing in a year).  But I started somewhere in Choshen Mishpat,
> and it was a bunch of dry stuff about contracts, and like what, is this
> Torah?  Or is this just some bunch of stuff about general contracts as
> they were in Medieval Europe?

I don't know exactly what area you were learning, but a great deal of
the "dry stuff about contracts" is of Talmudic origin.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:24:03 -0500 (EST)
"Jonathan Baker" <jjba...@panix.com> wrote:

> From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
...

> > Or, the relevent portions of EhE, CM and YD in a single cycle for a
> > "lemaaseh" version?
> 
> What's relevant?  Milve/loveh, nezek, eidus, dayanim

A few more: shutfus, nizkei she'cheinim, sechirus metaltelin / karka /
poalim, shomrim, sho'el, and yes, much of the "dry stuff about
contracts" is quite relevant today: davar she'lo ba le'olam, davar
she'eino be'reshuso, asmachta, kinyanim, etc.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 08:33:49PM -0500, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
: On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:24:03 -0500 (EST)
: "Jonathan Baker" <jjba...@panix.com> wrote:
:> From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
: ...
:>> Or, the relevent portions of EhE, CM and YD in a single cycle for a
:>> "lemaaseh" version?

:> What's relevant?  Milve/loveh, nezek, eidus, dayanim

: A few more: shutfus, nizkei she'cheinim, sechirus metaltelin / karka /
: poalim, shomrim, sho'el, and yes, much of the "dry stuff about
: contracts" is quite relevant today...

It's not relevent if it's not something someone is supposed to be able
to decide for themselves. Otherwise, it's outside the scope of a "yomi of
only lemaaseh material". A dayan wouldn't only have a quick survey. Thus,
anything requiring a BD could be culled from a program aied at making
sure you know halakhah lemaseh. (Eidus is no more usable than melichah
or shechitah, which we already about.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
mi...@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rav Yisrael Salanter


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