Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 8

Sun, 11 Jan 2009

• 1. Re: 10 B'Teves on Shabbos (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Torah Geography & Dream Brachos (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 3. Re: Torah Geography & Dream Brachos (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Torah Geography & Dream Brachos (T6...@aol.com)
• 5. The Relevance of Secular Studies to Jewish Education (Yitzchok Levine)
• 6. Re: Torah Geography & Dream Brachos (Joshua Waxman)
• 7. 10th of Teves on Shabbos (S Ismach)

Richard Wolpoe wrote:

> I think this is another perfect mis-understanding.


> This  is the ONE fast 
> of the four that falls pn FRIDAY and we fast anyway. 
> Plus we DO fast fast kabbals Shabbos until tzeis even though this is no 
> slam-dunk.

As we discussed here about a month ago, *any* public fast that falls on a
Friday (e.g. any of the fasts listed in siman 580, or the chevra kadisha
fast day) must be completed.  What's more, if the first time one fasted on
a yartzeit it wasn't a Friday, then when it does fall on a Friday one must
complete it (unless one anticipated this from the beginning, and made an
explicit tnai otherwise).



> So these factors - IMHO - cauesd a  a perfect mis-understanding leading 
> people to BELIEVE that if it DID fall on Shabbos we would fast. But had 
> they consuled SNOPES.COM <http://SNOPES.COM> as you did it is ibviously 
> false - a pashut Kal vachomer from tisha b'av.

Tish'a B'av doesn't have a "b'etzem hayom hazeh".

-- 
Zev Sero                    A mathemetician is a device for turning coffee
z...@sero.name               into theorems.                   - Paul Erdos

R' Gilad Field:
> 2) I saw in Sha'arim Metzuyanim B'Halacha (on KSA 50:3) where he
> quotes from the Pri HaSadeh (anyone know who he is?) Who says that if
> someone makes a bracha in a dream (because he dreamt he was drinking
> water) and he wakes up thirsty he needs to make "another" bracha.  He
> gives 2 reasons for this: 1) He wasn't a bar chiyuva while he was
> sleeping, and 2) the water was not considered "l'fanav" (in front of
> him) in that bracha.
> I don't have access to the full teshuva - but the whole question
> sounds very odd to me.  what would even be the hava amina that a
> bracha in a dream could apply to real life?

The Teshuvah is in Pri HaSadeh Cheilek 2:107. He doesn't explain the Hava
Amina, but see YD 210:2 and YD 334:35 where things that happen in dreams do
have Halachic significance. Interestingly, in Pri HaSadeh Cheilek 3:92.3 he
discusses the question of what if a person hears someone else make a
Berachah while sleep-talking - should he answer Amein? He says not to,
because the person sleeping is not a Bar Chiyuva, so we don't answer Amein.
He compares it to hearing an MP3 file of a Berachah - that one should not
say Amein to that. (He actually says "phonograph" but I'm not sure how many
people know that word... :-)  .) 

MeiInyan L'inyan, in Cheilek 3:32 he wants to know if listening o a
recording of a woman is a problem of Kol Ishah. First he wants to be
M'dayek from Rabbeinu Yonah that it isn't, because it isn't B'shaas Maaseh,
but later. Then he says that one can't make that Diyuk, because Rabbeinu
Yonah "Mistama" lived before the invention of phonographs, so one can't say
that he meant that Diyuk. (!). (L'maaseh he comes out L'isur, because he
says the problem is being M'orer Hirhur, and Mah Li if a person is
listening from a different room or from a recording.) 
Agav, he explains a Yalkut that says on the Pasuk He'yei Atah L'am Mul
Ha'Elokim that says that "You shoull d be like a Kli Malei Diburim." He
says that's like a phonograph - it is full of words, but has no Da'as, so
it can not become a Baal Gaaveh. So, too, Moshe should stay humble even
when being the go-between Hashem and the people.

His name, BTW, was R' Eliezer Deitch and he was a Rov in Hungary in the early 1900s.

KT,
MYG
 

Gilad Field wrote:

> 1) The Gemara, in Bava Basra 25b (it is also in the first perek of
> Gittin), wants to prove that Bavel is north of EY by quoting a Pasuk
> in Yermiyahu.  Why should we need a pasuk to teach us geography? This
> seems a bit strange to me.  Anyone have any thoughts on that?

The Amoraim's knowledge of geography was minimal.  In fact Bavel *isn't*
north of EY, and R Chanina's advice to R Ashi was wrong.  Bavel is pretty
much due east of EY.  The pasuk doesn't say anything about where Bavel is,
all it says is that the the Bavli invasion would come from the north.
The road from Bavel to EY goes north, turns west through Syria, and comes
down into EY from the north.  Also, if the pasuk refers to Yerushalayim
then *any* pre-modern invasion had to come from the north, because that
is the only side on which Y'm is vulnerable.  Nachal Kidron and Gei Ben-
Hinom protect it on the other three sides.  AFAIK WW1 was the first time
Y'm was taken from any other direction.

As for the direction of prayer from Bavel, there are two methods of
determining this, and either way R Chanina was wrong.  If it's determined
by drawing lines on a globe, then the proper direction from Bavel is due
west; if it's the road one would take to EY then in Bavel that is *north*.
There is no sense in which EY is south of Bavel, even though there is a
sense in which Bavel is north of EY.

PS: Another thing which may have confused R Chanina is that the Euphrates
is the *north-eastern* border of EY.  And as everyone knows, Bavel is on
the Euphrates.  Therefore it stands to reason that Bavel must be north of
EY.  The fallacy here is that the Euphrates is a long river, and it flows
south-west, not south.  The point at which it is one of the borders of EY
is in its far upper reaches, near Aleppo.

-- 
Zev Sero                    A mathemetician is a device for turning coffee
z...@sero.name               into theorems.                   - Paul Erdos

 

From: "Gilad Field" 


1) The Gemara, in Bava Basra 25b  (it is also in the first perek of
Gittin), wants to prove that Bavel is  north of EY by quoting a Pasuk
in Yermiyahu.  Why should we need a  pasuk to teach us geography? This
seems a bit strange to me.  Anyone  have any thoughts on that?




>>>>>
 
When people didn't have maps and were far from the homeland of their  
fathers, they would need sources to get some idea of -- literally -- "where in  the 
world they were."
 
You often see Rashi explaining that this or that city or mountain or plain  
is north of this or east of that, based on pesukim.  You can tell that he  had 
to figure out the geography of E'Y (and of Egypt and Bavel) by working it  out 
from Tanach.  It's possible that he did have maps but likely that  he did not.
 

--Toby Katz
==========



-------------------- 


**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?
redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%2
6bcd=De
cemailfooterNO62)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090111/06c94d3b/attachment-0001.htm>

The following is from pages 87 - 90  of RSRH's essay with the above 
title that appears in The Collected Writings of RSRH, Volume VII.

Now if the Judaism for which we are educating our young need not 
shrink from contact with the intellectual elements of any other true 
culture, it is essential for the future of our youth as citizens, and 
therefore it is a true religious duty, for us to give them a secular 
education. A secular education is a most beneficial help to our young 
in understanding the times in which they live and the conditions 
under which they will have to practice their life's vocation; hence 
it is most desirable also from the Jewish religious viewpoint and 
consequently deserving of warm support. But at the same time, and 
even more important, a good secular education can give our young 
people substantial new insights, added dimensions that will enrich 
their religious training. For this reason, too, secular education 
deserves the support of the religious educator.

There is no need to cite specific evidence that most of the secular 
studies taught at higher educational institutions, including our own, 
are essential to the future vocational careers of the students. There 
seem to be no differences of opinion in this respect. However, any 
supporter of education and culture should deplore the fact that when 
these secular studies are evaluated in terms of their usefulness to 
the young, too much stress is often placed on so-called practical 
utility and necessity. Under such circumstances, the young are in 
danger of losing the pure joy of acquiring knowledge for its own 
sake, so that they will no longer take pleasure in the moral and 
spiritual benefits to be obtained from study.

In light of what has just been said, it is clear, even from the 
religious point of view, that if our young people are to cope 
successfully with the practical aspects of their mission as Jews, 
everything possible must be done to introduce them to various areas 
of general studies. But there is also a spiritual harvest that can be 
won from secular studies, even for those who seek to grow in the 
theoretical knowledge of the Jewish religion. Our understanding of 
the philosophy of life and the Weltanschauung taught in the sacred 
writings of the Jewish religion is dependent in no small measure on 
our insights into the character and the development of nature and 
society. Any knowledge that serves to enrich the intellect in any 
manner will also enhance our insights into the philosophy of Judaism.

I have posted the entire essay at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/relevance_se
cular_studies_jewish_education.pdf

Yitzchok Levine 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090111/726f24a1/attachment-0001.htm>

Gilad Field wrote:
> 2 unrelated questions:
>
> 1) The Gemara, in Bava Basra 25b (it is also in the first perek of
> Gittin), wants to prove that Bavel is north of EY by quoting a Pasuk
> in Yermiyahu.  Why should we need a pasuk to teach us geography? This
> seems a bit strange to me.  Anyone have any thoughts on that?

*Perhaps* because we might say that Bavel is actually to the *east* of
Eretz Yisrael. Thus, Eretz Yisrael was called Maarava, residents there
were Bnei Maarava (with Maarava meaning West), and residents of 
Bavel being called Benei Madincha (Madincha meaning east). The 
Yerushalmi in Gittin 4b also says that Bavel is even more east of Eretz
Yisrael than Rekem. In terms of the gemara in Bava Batra 25b, since Bavel
was to the east, it was necessary to explain, within R' Chanina's statement
to Rav Ashi that those in the North of Eretz Yisrael should face south,
that that statement was as regards the residents of Bavel.

Anyway, that was just a thought. I expand a bit on this theme in this post
here, on my blog:

http://parsha.blogspot.com/2005/01/yerushalmi-gittin-1-jewish-geog
raphy.html

Aside from this, even if it is accurate geography, there is a trend of trying
to find Biblical prooftexts for known facts. For example that the sun rises
in the east and sets in the west. Why this is a worthwhile endeavor may
have to do with their philosophical perspective of how to derive knowledge,
namely via experience or tradition. At least that is my take on it.

KT,
Josh Waxman

From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 4:59 AM, Danny Schoemann <doni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In response to one of my Halocho-a-day posts kitzur.com/7zq2
> (
> http://halocho.blogspot.com/2009/01/halocho-244-fasting-on
> -shabbat-is.html
> )
> people keep on writing in informing me that if 10 B'Teves were to
> [theoretically] fall on Shabbos, we would fast.
>
> Over the years I've heard this from various people.
>
> Where does this Halocho come from? The SA in OC 550:3 says "if these 4
> fasts fall on Shabbos that are deferred to Sunday."

This is no misunderstanding.

The Avudraham clearly held that would Asara b'Teves fall on Shabbos we WOULD
fast. He compares it to Yom Kippur which we fast on Shabbos because the Navi
(Yechezkel) is told "b'etzem hayom hazeh" which is the very phrase that
stresses the importance of the tenth of Tishrei for YK not allowing it to be
pushed.

The Bies Yosef presents Rashi and Rambam who explicitly disagree and state
that it would be nidche to Sunday like 17 of Tamuz and Tisha b'Av. This is
how the Shulchan Aruch paskens, mentioning that we push the FOUR fasts if
they fall on Shabbos. (The Magen Avraham acknowledges that "FOUR" is lav
davka because the 10th of Teves can never fall on Shabbos.
There is much discussion about why (acc. to Avud.) this fact would be
different and would push away concerns of Oneg Shabbos. (See Ohr Sameach on
Rambam Taanis perek 5 and Chidushei Hagrach on maseches RH).

The shut Shoel uMeishiv 3:179 suggests that in a way, Asarah b'Teves was the
most significant of fast because it represented the beginning of
the siege and thus the "haschalas hapuranios".

S. Ismach
> ____


I think this is another perfect mis-understanding. This  is the ONE fast of
the four that falls pn FRIDAY and we fast anyway.

Plus we DO fast fast kabbals Shabbos until tzeis even though this is no
slam-dunk.

So these factors - IMHO - cauesd a  a perfect mis-understanding leading
people to BELIEVE that if it DID fall on Shabbos we would fast. But had they
consuled SNOPES.COM as you did it is ibviously false - a pashut Kal vachomer
from tisha b'av.

--
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com

_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8
*************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."