Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 438

Wed, 31 Dec 2008

• 1. Modifying Halachos based on scientific findings? (Gals...@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Two Ways of Dealing with Society (R' Yaakov Medan) (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: Modifying Halachos based on scientific findings? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Modifying Halachos based on scientific findings? (Rich, Joel)
• 5. mai chanuka (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 6. writing of torah she-bal Pe (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: Rav Aviner on Amen Meals (David Riceman)
• 8. Re: Rav Aviner on Amen Meals (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 9. yosef and the 10 Martyrs (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: Rav Aviner on Amen Meals (T6...@aol.com)
• 11. Re: pach hashemen (T6...@aol.com)
• 12. Re: Reiecha Mitzvah Definitions (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: And Another Problem with When NOT to Lie for Peace (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: pach hashemen (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 15. looking for a nega during sheva brachos (Sholom Simon)
• 16. Re: Rav Aviner on Amen Meals (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 17. Re: When NOT to Lie for Peace (T6...@aol.com)

Do we change Halachos based on scientific findings?
The two I am referring to are Birchat Hachama. 
On this one we hold by Amora Shemuel Calendar. A year is 365.25 days, 
although scientifically we know that a year is closer to 365.24 days. We did not 
change the cycle of blessing the sun, we do it every 28 x 365.25 days.
 
On the other hands, the measure Revi'is, to those that hold the Mida Ketana 
(the smalller measurement),
we used to measure 86.4 cc, according to Harav Na'eh.
Recently, I read a few articles that shows that Harav Na'eh based his 
measurement (86.4 cc) on the coin called Dirham.  According to the Rambam, Reviis is 
27 Dirham.
The weight of a Dirham (according to Harav Na'eh) is 3.2 gram.  However, the 
new articles claims that 3.2 grams was the weight of the Dirham during the 
Ottoman regime in Eretz Israel, but in the time of the Rambam it was about 2.8 
grams, therefore Revi'is is 75 grams.
 
In this case it looks like we change Halacha based on archaeologic findings 
(that claims that Dirham in the time of the Rambam was 2.8 grams.)
 
Can we do that?
 
galsaba
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The following email was just sent by YHE's ("Gush"'s) Virtual Bais
Medrash. It is someone notes of a sichah given by RYMedan (one of 4 RY,
ever since 2 were added in 2006).

He identifies Yoseif's approach with that of contemporary chareidim,
unlike RYBS who identified him with MO. But in any case, it's a talk
given to one community about the validity of *both* approaches.

-micha

==========================================
I was struck by the fact that he focused on Yosef's "family" and not
Yosef and his immediate family. Question: Did Yosef and Yaakov know that
Yaakov and family  stay would be more permanent than just the current
famine? If not, the decision for the rest of the family is clearer since
they would expect to soon be back in their "pristine " state. (I assume
Yosef "knew" that Paro would not let him go home )

I also was struck  that he did not consider possible differences in
Egyptian and Babylonian culture as a possible cause for differences. 

That being said , I assume the point you mentioned was his main concern
and this was a convenient train leaving the station.


KT
Joel Rich
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On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:41:33AM -0500, Gals...@aol.com wrote:
: Do we change Halachos based on scientific findings?
: The two I am referring to are Birchat Hachama. 
: On this one we hold by Amora Shemuel Calendar...

Which isn't bad science, simply the chosen estimation. Any value chosen
would be limited by the choice of precision. Had we chosen R' Adda's
tequfah, birkhas hachamah would only be said once every 98,496 years --
and that too is only an estimate. We also don't find anyone saying we
should say it on Elul 28 to follow R' Eliezer. It would seem the whole
idea is that the 28 yr cycle brings maaseh bereishis to mind, and no
claims are being made about actual celestial events occuring.

: On the other hands, the measure Revi'is, to those that hold the Mida Ketana 
: ... Recently, I read a few articles that shows that Harav Na'eh based his 
: measurement (86.4 cc) on the coin called Dirham. According to the
: Rambam, Reviis is 27 Dirham.
: The weight of a Dirham (according to Harav Na'eh) is 3.2 gram.  However, the 
: new articles claims that 3.2 grams was the weight of the Dirham during the 
: Ottoman regime in Eretz Israel, but in the time of the Rambam it was about 2.8
: grams, therefore Revi'is is 75 grams.

: In this case it looks like we change Halacha based on archaeologic
findings : (that claims that Dirham in the time of the Rambam was
2.8 grams.) : Can we do that?

According to the Gra and RAYKook, scientific findings can only change the
halakhah lechumerah. The reason for a pesaq usually includes motivations
beyond those documented. Therefore, if we find a flaw in the documented
reason, we do not know if we should remain with the chumrah because of
any other sevaros. However, we do know that if one reason lehaqeil is
removed, we have motivation lehachmir.

This topic has been discussed on Avodah repeatedly, particularly in
light of the gemara's belief that maggots are not the product of piryah
verivyah. My own rebbe, RDLifshitz, made a point of explaining how the
science would not impact that particular din.

You might want to check the archive. See also RGS's essay at
<http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/science.html>, he gives a survey
of responses to the question, and how they appeared in several real
questions (bein hashemashos, tereifos, babies born in the 8th month,
and spontaneous generation of lice).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
mi...@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore

 

         
         
        Do we change Halachos based on scientific findings?
        The two I am referring to are Birchat Hachama. 
        On this one we hold by Amora Shemuel Calendar. A year is 365.25
days, although scientifically we know that a year is closer to 365.24
days. We did not change the cycle of blessing the sun, we do it every 28
x 365.25 days.
         
         
        Can we do that?
         
        galsaba
         
         
        
========================================================================
===============
        In a word (a la R'YBS), No.
        You might find this shiur of interest on the topic
        
        http://www.ygwh.org/user/Birkas%20HaChamah.mp3
<blocked::http://www.ygwh.org/user/Birkas HaChamah.mp3> 
        KT
        Joel Rich 
        
        
        
         

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as  a former  LA  rabbi  r j simcha  cohen  used to say  'mai chanuka 
dtannu rabbanna?'   ie what is the nes  that  the  rabbannan celebrated. 
  it seems that  al hanissim  concentrates on military---davening  is  for 
the hamon am. 
the gmara focus is more  on the nes,  which is on the level of  the 
intelligensia....


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It is a well known Machloket of versions of Iggeret Rav Sherira Gaon whether
Rebbe compiled the Mishna (from earlier sources) or actually wrote it down.
Similarly there are disagreements if Ravina and Rav Ashi actually wrote
some version of the Talmud

Nevertheless the original megillat taanit (with only the mention of dates for
some 25 holidays and thus very short) is described as being written and
so is the first written torah she-be-al peh.

BTW the gemara states that these holidays except for Chanukah and Purim
were annuled. However, it is not clear when this happened - with the
destruction of the bet hamikdash?
There are proofs that some of them like the defeat of Nokanor did continue
past the destruction of the Temple.

In any case we do see fro Megillat Taanit that the major thrust of
these holidays
was to celebrate military victories mainly in the Macabee revolt

-- 
Eli Turkel

Rich, Joel wrote:
>   
> Yes, I've heard of that but that's not the main focus of gathering.
> Question: If one eats not because they are hungry but specifically in
> order to make a bracha, do you still make a bracha? 
>   

What about eating to complete 100 brachos on Shabbos?

David Riceman

R. Joel Rich:

<Question: If one eats not because they are hungry but specifically in order to make a bracha, do you still make a bracha?>

R. Zev Sero:

<So long as one still gets the benefit, either of the nutrition or the
taste, then yes.>

RJR:

Would you say the same thing by taking a drink solely for the purpose of taking medicine?>

RZS:  

<That is precisely the basis of what I wrote above.	When taking
medicine that is either nutritious or tasty, one does say a bracha.  (See
OC 204. Also OC 202, for examples where the fact that one is eating
something only for its medical benefit affects the choice of which
ingredient is the ikar and which is the tafel; there is no question of not
saying a bracha at all.)>

     While RZS's final response is accurate, I believe RJR's question was a
     different one: not making a bracha on medication itself, but on a
     liquid taken solely to be able to swallow a pill.

     In that case, it depends on the liquid.  If other than water, a bracha
     is required.  The obligation for a bracha on water, however, is
     "hashoseh mayim l'tzam'o," only for thirst (OC 204:7), so no b'racha
     would be made if he is not thirsty and drinks only to swallow
     medication. 

EMT

____________________________________________________________
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from the column of R. Ari Kahn on Aish Hatorah

Rabbenu Bachya cites the famous teaching that the ten martyrs are seen
as a recompense for the sale of Yosef. This theme is found in the
Midrash and has entered into the liturgy of Yom Kippur. Rabbenu Bachya
asks why there were ten martyrs, if only nine brothers were involved
in the sale. Binyamin was at home, Yosef was a victim, and Reuven left
prior to the sale. He suggests that Yosef had some responsibility for
his own plight, having caused the enmity at home, and therefore
atonement for his sins is exacted by the death of a martyr.
Alternatively he suggests that Reuven accounts for the tenth martyr,
as a punishment for Reuven's own peccadillo.

Perhaps we can suggest a different answer: Yosef himself was the tenth
protagonist because he never forgave his brothers completely. He, too,
bore guilt. Had he managed to control himself longer, perhaps he would
have been able to arrive at a point of complete reconciliation. Yet we
see that the brothers and Yosef lived in Egypt together many more
years, and, tragically, they remained afraid of him. Scars from the
sale remained, unhealed, and later generations experienced the wrath
of those unhealed scars of an incomplete family.

-- 
Eli Turkel

 


From:  "kennethgmil...@juno.com" _kennethgmiller@juno.com_ 
(mailto:kennethgmil...@juno.com) 

Is  this really such a new thing?

To me, it sounds extremely similar to the  practice of some men who who 
recite Birchos Hashachar out loud, which I've  been told is for the specific 
purpose of accruing zechus to the people who  answer Amen. (I'm not talking about 
the chazan, but about people who say these  brachos aloud from their seat in 
shul.)

Akiva  Miller

 
 
>>>>>
 
I believe that is also new [or new-ish]
 
I think the main impetus behind the "amen fad" was the campaign of an  
unfortunate young woman who was dying of cancer and spent her last years trying  to 
spread the message, in the hopes it would give her a zechus and a  refuah.  I 
don't remember her name but I think she wrote a book, or maybe  somebody wrote 
a book about her.
 

--Toby Katz
==========



-------------------- 





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From: Micha Berger _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:mi...@aishdas.org) 
: All those miracles  were in the Bayis Rishon. There were no open miracles in
: the Bayis Sheni --  with the single exception of the pach hashemen. This
: miracle was therefore  seen as a throwback to earlier times and a brief 
sign of
: Hashem's favor, a  momentary ray of sunshine in the darkening gloom. [--TK]

>>I would  have argued the exact reverse. How many people saw how much
oil burned for 8  days? Only kohanim who were ready to serve and in the
Heichal could have seen  them fill it.

This is very far from the national nature of the events  commemorated by
the regalim or Purim.

I would propose that this is why  CHanukah isn't founded upon the miracle
of the oil....<<
 
>>>>>
I was answering somebody who didn't  think the pach hashemen was a big deal 
at all, since miracles were a  common occurrence in the Bais Hamikdash.  I 
can't find my source now but I  believe that miracles were /not/ a daily 
occurrence at all during the time of  the Bayis Sheini.
 
However I did not mean to imply that the oil miracle was the main reason  for 
Chanuka.  
 
The main reason was the victory of the Chashmonaim over the Greeks and  
Hellenizers.  And since that military victory was very short-lived, the  main 
reason for Chanukah was the ultimate triumph of Orthodoxy over Reform and  
Conservative ersatz forms of Judaism -- well, sorry about the  editorializing -- it 
was the triumph of the Torah camp over the Hellenizing  camp.  It was this 
latter victory which did indeed prove to be permanent,  despite the persistence, 
for a couple of centuries, of a Hellenizing yetzer  hara.
 
As for the miracle of the oil, by itself it wasn't the reason for Chanuka,  
but it served as a sign that the military (and spiritual) victory were Divine  
miracles, too.  
 
Without that sign of something overtly miraculous, people might have  
understood the Chashmonai victory --as indeed secular Zionists do understand it  -- 
as a tactical victory achieved through the superior military planning of  a 
clever group of guerilla fighters.  (This narrative was especially  popular when 
the guerillas were Jews fighting Brits in 1947 --  not  so much now when the 
Jews play the Greeks and the Gazan  Arabs play the Chashmonaim in the popular 
secular imagination.)
 
 
That's why I said the miracle of the oil was a ray of light in the  darkening 
gloom.  It showed that even when there was a general hester panim  -- as was 
the case throughout the Bayis Sheni and ever since -- there were and  are 
still moments in history when Hashgacha Pratis comes through in more obvious  ways 
to ensure the survival of the Torah community.  The oil  was the *sign* of a 
miracle -- the miracle is our  survival. 
 
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

--------------------




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On Thu, December 25, 2008 3:44 am, Harvey Benton wrote:
: When a Mitzvah is associated in the Torah with "Reiecha" do
: we always apply and define Reiecha in the same way?  Eg.  V'ahafta
: L'Reiecha Kamocha.  Lo TaaMod Al Dam Reiecha.  Lo Tachmod Et Beit
: Reiecha... etc.

In <http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/doc/doc67/rasha-zuriel.doc>,
"Sin'at Rasha'im" by R' Moshe Tzuri'el (Yeshivat Beit-El), chapter 2
discusses the use of "amkha", "amitekha", "achikha" and "rei'akha" in
describing mitzvos. I recommend the article, and in particular that
chapter.

His conclusion in answer to your question, is that a reia' is every
Jew, whether a tzadiq or rasha'. He cites "lo sachmod beis rei'ekha"
(Shemos 20:14), "lo sa'achoq es rei'ekha" (Vayiqra 19:13), "lo sa'amod
al dam rei'ekha" (ibid 16), "lo sasig gevul rei'ekha" (Devarim 19:14),
"ki savo beqerem rei'eihu" (Devarim 23:25).

It does not include nachriim, even geirei toshav (c.f. BQ 27b, "shor
rei'eihu" - velo aku"m).

"Ve'ahavta lerei'akha (Vayiqra 19:18) is limited in Avos deR' Nasan
(ch 16) to those who aren't resha'im gemurim not because of
"re'eikha", but because the pasuq continues "lo siqom velo sitor es
benei AMEKHA".

I think that's the keta that addresses your specific question.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, December 24, 2008 9:25 pm, R Meir Rabi wrote:
: The Gemara brings proof from the bros of Yosef lying to Yosef that one
: is permitted to lie for peace. They invented a fictitious command
: issued from YaAkov before his demise, that the bros should be
: forgiven by Yosef.

: Can it be that in circumstances where they should be asking for
: Mechila and doing their utmost to mollify him, they are permitted to
: lie in order to make peace?

That wouldn't jibe with the gemara's other source, where HQBH modifies
Sarah's words "va'adoni zaqein" to "va'ani zakanti".

If my experience is typical, the gemara is usually understood as
bringing two proofs to reinforce the point about the tzad hashaveh --
one may edit the truth for peace. Not about mechilah.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R'n TK:
I was answering somebody who?didn't think?the pach hashemen was a big deal
at all,?since miracles were a common occurrence in the Bais Hamikdash.? I
can't find my source now but I believe that miracles were /not/ a daily
occurrence at all during the time of the Bayis Sheini.
------------


<SNIP>
The main reason was the victory of the Chashmonaim over the Greeks and
Hellenizers.? And since that military victory was very short-lived, the
main reason for Chanukah was the ultimate triumph of Orthodoxy over Reform
and Conservative ersatz forms of Judaism?-- well, sorry about the
editorializing -- it was the triumph of the Torah camp over the Hellenizing
camp.? It was this latter victory which did indeed prove to be permanent,
despite the persistence, for a couple of centuries, of a Hellenizing yetzer
hara.
?
As for the miracle of the oil, by itself it wasn't the reason for Chanuka,
but it served as a sign that the military (and spiritual) victory were
Divine miracles, too.? 
?
Without that sign of something overtly miraculous, people might have
understood the Chashmonai victory --as indeed secular Zionists do
understand it -- as?a tactical victory achieved through the superior
military planning of a clever group of guerilla fighters.? (This narrative
was especially popular when the guerillas were Jews fighting Brits in 1947
--? not so?much now when the Jews?play the Greeks and the Gazan Arabs?play
the Chashmonaim in the popular secular imagination.)
<SNIP>
------------



KT,
MYG

In Nega'im 3:2 -- and also Moed Katan 7b at the bottom -- we learn 
that a Kohen doesn't examine a nega during teh chagim, or chol 
hamoed, because it may reduce the joy.

OK, that makes sense.

Then, they both say: and we don't examine a chatan during the days of 
sheva brochos.  For the same reason.

What about the kallah?

-- Sholom

From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" kennethgmil...@juno.com
Is this really such a new thing?

To me, it sounds extremely similar to the practice of some men who who
recite Birchos Hashachar out loud, which I've been told is for the specific
purpose of accruing zechus to the people who answer Amen. (I'm not talking
about the chazan, but about people who say these brachos aloud from their
seat in shul.)
>>>>>
R'n TK:
I believe that is also new [or new-ish]
?
I think the main impetus behind the "amen fad" was the campaign of an
unfortunate young woman who was dying of cancer and spent her last years
trying to spread the message, in the hopes it would give her a zechus and a
refuah.? I don't remember her name but I think she wrote a book, or maybe
somebody wrote a book about her.
-----------------



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3360702,00.html

KT,
MYG

 


 
 
From: "Meir Rabi" _meir...@optusnet.com.au_ (mailto:meir...@optusnet.com.au) 



>>They believed Yosef was a major sinner (mored bemalchus -- if  Yakov is a
>>melech -- plotting to usurp his father's and brothers'  place -- re his 
dream
>>of his father and brothers bowing to him -- OR  -- eating ever min hachai --
>>OR -- other?).  To smile at a  sinner and pretend everything's fine is not
>>darkei sholom but  hypocrisy.  (Maybe we should learn from the brothers  
that
>>chanifa to non-O rabbis is not the right thing to do.)  [--TK]


---------


>> This is probably  correct.



However, accordingly it means that Y and his bros had  discussed and debated
this and weighed the options, otherwise it is just the  musings of a group of
well meaning but misdirected individuals....  

They were making decisions of such weight defending Yaakov when Y had  not
even been consulted or informed?




...Was Yaakov part of  those deliberations?




....BTW I do not know why you restrict  the issues of Chunfa to nonO rabbis.
.... Am I permitted
to greet  someone who has insulted a fellow J and has refused to gain the
victim's  forgiveness? Am I permitted to attend a testimonial dinner to
honour someone  who has not dealt honestly with business associates or
rivals?....  <<


Meir Rabi


 
 
>>>>>
 
 
 
Did the brothers make up a beis din and discuss and weigh Yosef's  
"rebellion" before sentencing him?  I believe the Gemara says that's  exactly what they 
did.  (Yakov was not part of their deliberations.)   Others on this list will 
probably be able to point to the exact Gemara,  UIAM.
 
As for your observation that there are many kinds of sin besides being a  
non-O rabbi, you are correct.  At what point the sin becomes so great that  
greeting that person is in effect condoning  sin -- I guess that's a  judgment call.
 
(PS. I notice that I made a mistake in speculating that the brothers  
suspected Yosef of eating ever min hachai -- actually he suspected /them/ of  that 
sin and so reported it to their father)

 

--Toby  Katz
==========




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