Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 417

Sun, 14 Dec 2008

• 1. RSRH's Comments on Bereshis 33:4-7 (Yitzchok Levine)
• 2. Re: RSRH's Comments on Bereshis 33:4-7 (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: RSRH's Comments on Bereshis 33:4-7 (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Chevra Kadisha Fast Day today, 15 Kislev? (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Sephardi-ism: some food for thought (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 6. Did RSRH Write LH about Shimon and Levi (Yitzchok Levine)
• 7. Re: Did RSRH Write LH about Shimon and Levi (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 8. Re: Did RSRH Write LH about Shimon and Levi (Liron Kopinsky)
• 9. Vayeishev "If You Can't Say Something Nice, Then Don't Say Anything At All" (Cantor Wolberg)

I find RSRH's comments on Bereshis 33:4 -7 most interesting.

4 Esav ran to meet him, embraced him, fell upon 
his neck and kissed him, and they [both] wept.

5 [Esav] looked up and saw the women and the 
children, and asked: Who are these to you? 
[Ya?akov] said: They are the children
whom God has graciously given your servant.

6 The maidservants drew near ? they and their children ? and they bowed.

7 Leah also drew near with her children and they 
bowed, and afterwards Yosef and Rachel drew near, and they bowed.

He says the following about Esav:

The word "vayevkoo? (?and they wept?) attests that Esav was overcome by
genuine human emotion. A kiss can be an affected gesture; not so tears
that flow at such moments. (bacha  means: to
break out in tears. Tears spring from the depths of the human soul.)
This kiss and these tears show Esav, too, as a grandson of Avraham.

Esav must have been more than just a wild hunter. Otherwise, how
could he have succeeded in dominating the whole development of mankind?
The sword alone, brute force alone, cannot accomplish this.

Esav, too, will gradually lay down his sword; more and more, he
will make room for humaneness. Ya?akov will be the one to provide
him with the opportunity of showing to what extent the principle of
humaneness has prevailed in his heart. When the strong respects the
rights of the strong, this is merely discretion. But when the strong, as
Esav here, throws himself on the shoulders of the weak and casts away
the sword of aggression ? only then does it become clear that justice
and humaneness have prevailed in his heart.

Rav Hirsch then goes on to analyze the Dikduk in 
33: 6 - 7. From it he derives what happened when 
Yaakov's wives encountered Esav. I have posted this at

http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/bereshis_33_4_7.pdf

Yitzchok Levine 
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On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:54am EST, R Yitzchok Levine quoted RSRH:
: The word "vayevkoo" ("and they wept") attests that Esav was overcome by
: genuine human emotion....

Which reopens the question of when one takes the liberty of giving a
peshat contrary to Chazal. Does RSRH have a contrary source in Chazal to
the medrash that turns Esav's act into an attempt to steal -- which even
as a mashal, can't indicate authenticity on his part.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:54am EST, R Yitzchok Levine quoted RSRH:
> : The word "vayevkoo" ("and they wept") attests that Esav was overcome by
> : genuine human emotion....
> 
> Which reopens the question of when one takes the liberty of giving a
> peshat contrary to Chazal. Does RSRH have a contrary source in Chazal to
> the medrash that turns Esav's act into an attempt to steal -- which even
> as a mashal, can't indicate authenticity on his part.

I think you're confusing two stories.  *Lavan's* kiss was an attempt to
see whether Yaacov was hiding anything in his mouth.  Esav's kiss, if it
was not genuine, was an attempt to bite Yaacov's neck.  But RSRH is on
safe ground here, because no less an authority than RSBY says that Esav's
kiss was genuine.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Areivim, Naomi S Israel wrote:
> I heard something new today -- apparently 15 Kislev is a fast day for 
> Chevra Kadishas?  Is this commonly done??
> Never heard of this before.  (Also, a chevra kadisha can't fast, only 
> its members.)

It's pretty much universal that the members of a chevra kadisha observe
a fast day.  The exact day varies by region.  In Lita the minhag was
15 Kislev; in Poland the minhag was 7 Adar.  Neither date can fall on
Shabbos.  I've also heard of 29 Shevat, which can fall on Shabbos; I
assume that if so the fast is observed on Thursday instead.


> Do people taking on this fast continue it into Shabbos, until tzeis?  
> That's what the person announcing it said, but I thought that was assur.

The SA (OC 562:3 and 249:4) says every fast must continue until tzeis
hakochavim, unless it's a private fast and the person made a specific
tnai otherwise.  The Rema (249:4) says that some dispute this, and
therefore if it's a private fast one should break it after leaving
shul, but a public fast should continue until TzHK.  Ba'er Hetev goes
into detail, and says all the fasts listed in siman 580 count for this
purpose as "public", and a yartzeit fast depends on how it came out the
first time: if the first time was on a Friday then one should not
complete it, and so every time it falls on Friday, but if the first time
was during the week, and one didn't make a specific tnai that Friday
would be different, then one must complete it even when it falls on
Friday.

The ChK fast has certain aspects of a "public" fast; they make a minyan
with aneinu and vayechal.  Also it's like the fixed fasts the Ba'er
Hetev mentions, in that it's on a fixed day every year.  So it seems
that they have to complete it.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:51:39 -0500
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:28:23PM -0500, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
> :> Is the ideal poseiq a database plus some natural language software (to
> :> convert the sefarim into some data structure) and an algorithm? That would
> :> be the ultimate in objectivity -- but it would minimize the humanity of
> :> our contribution to the halachic process.
> 
> : I don't think this would be "the ultimate in objectivity"; without real
> : AI, the software couldn't possibly generate any real Pesak, since Pesak
> : involves human level reasoning...
> 
> And if the process needs real AI, doesn't that mean it requires
> subjectivity? Isn't the difference between real software and any
> hypothetical "real AI" is that intelligence has an "I", a first person
> viewpoint, a possibility of subjectivity? If you /need/ real intelligence,
> doesn't that mean there is a subjective component?

This is exactly the point I meant to reject, or at least question.  Do
automated theorem provers do mathematics as well as actual
mathematicians?  Is the mathematician's advantage his subjectivity, or
his superior intellectual-cognitive sophistication?

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

There have been times when people have criticized 
me for sending out messages that contain negative 
information about people.  The accusation is that 
what I sent out is Loshon Harah, and I am not 
allowed to disseminate such information.  They 
claim that even if the information is widely 
known and has appeared in the media,  one is not 
allowed to distribute it further. In light of 
this, I present the commentary of RSRH on what 
Shimon and Levi did as it appears in the new 
translation of his commentary to Bereshis 34: 25 - 31.

Let me make it clear that I am in no way putting 
myself in the same category as RSRH. I am simply 
looking for comments on this issue.

YL

25 It was on the third day, when they were in 
pain, that two sons of Ya?akov, Shimon and Levi, 
Dinah?s brothers, each took his
sword, and they came upon the city, which was 
resting trustfully, and killed every male.

26 They put Chamor and Shechem, his son, to death 
by the sword, and took Dinah out of Shechem?s house and left.

27 Ya?akov?s sons came upon the slain and 
plundered the city, because they had defiled their sister.

28 They took their sheep, their cattle, and their 
donkeys ? those that were in the city and those that were in the field.

29 They also plundered all their wealth and they 
carried off into captivity their children and women, and everything that was
in the houses.

30 Ya?akov then said to Shimon and Levi: You have 
brought me trouble to discredit me among the inhabitants of the land, the
Kena?ani and the Perizzi. I am only few in 
number, and they will unite against me and smite 
me, and [then] I and my household
will be destroyed.

31 They said: Shall he, then, treat our sister like a harlot?

25?31 Here begins the part deserving of censure, and we do not need to cover
it up. Had they killed only Shechem and Chamor, the brothers would
certainly have been in the right. But they did not spare the unarmed,
defenseless men who were at their mercy. What is more, they looted
the city. They made all the inhabitants of the place pay for a crime
committed by their master. There was no justification for this. Hence,
Ya?akov berates them: ?You have brought me trouble by your actions.
Our reputation, our honor, were as clear as crystal, but now you have
sullied them, you have made me odious even among the Canaanites
and the Perizzites. In addition to doing wrong, you also acted imprudently,
for we are so few in number . . .?

Their one reply, ha k'zonah reveals their whole motive. The lord of
the manor would never have taken such liberties if the maiden in question
had not been a foreign, friendless Jewish girl. This thought makes
Shimon and Levi realize that there are times when even the family of
Ya?akov must take up the sword in defense of purity and honor. As long
as men on earth will respect the rights of only those who have the
power, Ya?akov will have to know how to wield the sword. Ya?akov?s
sons did not want to act prudently. They wanted to make others fear
them, so that no one would ever dare do such a thing to them again.
Ya?akov?s daughters are not to be left vulnerable, at the mercy of others.

Nevertheless, by killing innocent people for a crime committed by
the high and mighty, Ya?akov?s sons went too far. [My emphasis]

It is interesting that the account of this incident immediately follows
the account of the meeting between Ya?akov and Esav. There, we saw a
flash of kol Ya'akov, an awakening of humane emotion in Esav?s heart, and
we recognized in this the first spark of humaneness that someday will
develop fully even in Esav. Here, we briefly see the sword of Esav in
the hands of the sons of Ya?akov. From this we learn, for the clarification
of Jewish history, the following truth:

If, in the course of time, we have become a people that is revolted
by the shedding of blood; if we have become the gentlest, the most
merciful of nations, this does not mean that we are weak or cowardly.
The final days of our existence as a Jewish state demonstrated our courage
and fighting spirit, such that the strongest of Esav?s legions had to
be summoned to fight us. We, too, can wield the sword; we, too, are
capable of being bloodthirsty. Our gentleness and humaneness are products
of the education that God has given us through our history and
through His Torah.

It is only the methods and the proportions of their action that made
Shimon and Levi deserving of censure. The motive that catalyzed
Shimon and Levi, and the purpose they sought to achieve, were holy
and justified. The spirit that moved them was indispensable for a family
that matured into a nation as ?Ya?akov,? which had to endure all forms
of hardship and humiliation, and yet was called upon to stand tall and
persevere by resilience of spirit and nobility of mind in an eternal,
unparalleled march through the ages.

We will see the aged father even on his deathbed cursing the excessive
violence employed by his sons, but at the same time blessing the motive
and the spirit which inspired their action. We will see the position he
assigned to Shimon and Levi within Ya?akov-Yisrael, a position of powerlessness
and dispersion, so that the sword in their hands would never
again break all bounds of moderation. However, their strong spirit, ever
mindful of Israel?s moral and spiritual dignity and destiny, was to remain
alive and active as a reviving, sustaining, and saving force in all spheres
of the nation (see Commentary below, 49:7). The same sword that Levi
wielded here against a foe from without to save his sister?s honor will
later be ruthlessly turned by the Levi?im against their own brethren, to
raise them from the depths of their moral corruption, to raise and save
without restraint or discrimination:v'es achiv lo hakir v'es banov lo yadah
(Devarim 33:9).

These traits, as revealed in this incident and as will be revealed in
future incidents, can, in the final analysis, explain why it was necessary
to refine and purify this race of men in the ?iron crucible? of suffering,
to qualify them as the chosen models to be emulated by all mankind
for its salvation. Not because we are a tractable nation, but precisely
because we are a stubborn and unyielding nation ? az she'bumos, as our
Sages put it (see Beitzah 25b) ? did God choose us as His instrument,
forging us into the toughest, most enduring steel so that, by winning
us over to His Will, He might demonstrate the wondrous power of His
providence and the wondrous power of His Torah.


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On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:53:54 -0500
Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

...

> Their one reply, ha k'zonah reveals their whole motive. The lord of
> the manor would never have taken such liberties if the maiden in question
> had not been a foreign, friendless Jewish girl. This thought makes
> Shimon and Levi realize that there are times when even the family of
> Ya?akov must take up the sword in defense of purity and honor. As long

I have discussed Abravanel's remarkable elaboration of this theme here:

http://bdl.freehostia.com/2008/09/07/abravanel-and-dumas-on-honor/

As I write there:

"The concept of honor under discussion here does not appear to be a
particularly Jewish one; it is tempting to suggest this as evidence of
host culture influence on Abravanel?s thought."

> as men on earth will respect the rights of only those who have the
> power, Ya?akov will have to know how to wield the sword. Ya?akov?s
> sons did not want to act prudently. They wanted to make others fear
> them, so that no one would ever dare do such a thing to them again.
> Ya?akov?s daughters are not to be left vulnerable, at the mercy of others.

Rav Hirsch seems to be shifting here from the paradigm of honor to the
more Machiavellian paradigm of cold-blooded deterrence.  This is the Or
Ha'Haim's view, as I discuss here:

http://bdl.freehostia.com/2007/09/06/best-defense-good-offense/

He is suggesting that the appropriate response to a Gentile offense
against Jews is bloody retaliation, since that's the way to ensure that
they will not repeat their crime.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

I heard a drash at Sueda Shlishit today which said that there are differing
opinions about why Shimon and Levi did what they did.
1) By not setting up and enforcing a court system that punished violators of
the 7 mitzvot, they were equally culpable (Rambam I think).
1b) This seemed a bit hard to say since we in general don't punish for
negligence, but the Rav suggested maybe the obligation to set up a court
system is different.
2) They were all reshaim anyway (ovdei avoda zara etc.) so there is no need
to try and justify why they were chayav mita from the pesukum (Ramban I
think)
3) Bnei Yisrael were considered a nation at the time and not just a family
and therefore were justified in declaring war in the full sense on the city
of Shechem. It is known that in war innocent civilians are killed and that
is considered collateral damage that is not necessarily considered when
deciding when to go to war (Maharsha I think).

As an aside, the Rav also explained that the reason Yaakov chastized Shimon
and Levi was because he had thought that the plan was to just circumcise the
city and then extract Dina and wasn't expecting to have to deal with the
other local inhabitants coming to attack him and the family, but it could be
read into the pesukim that he only chastises them for the outcome of the
actions and not for the problemattic nature of the action itself.

Kol Tuv,
~Liron
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V'LO YACHLU DABRO L'SHALOM (37:4) -   "And they they could not speak  
to him peaceably."
Due to the tremendous jealousy and hostility, the brothers could not  
bring themselves to speak peacefully to Joseph.
Interestingly, Rashi actually commends them for not being two faced.  
He writes: "From their blame we learn their praise.
For they did not speak one way with their mouth and another way with  
their heart."

Though Rashi is correct, I think an even higher level, would be to  
adhere to the old adage: "If you can't say something
nice, then don't say anything at all."  That's a level we all strive  
for, but having someone tell us that they will rule over us
makes it pretty difficult. That would take a true tzaddik, which few  
of us are.

rw



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