Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 413

Wed, 10 Dec 2008

• 1. Re: Chalav stam (Micha Berger)
• 2. Rav Shteinman and Niagra Falls (efpa...@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Sephardi-ism: some food for thought (Arie Folger)
• 4. take-out fleishiks (JoshH...@aol.com)
• 5. Re: Insects in our salads (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Re: Practical Psak: Washing before/after Kiddush (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 7. Re: Practical Psak: Circular Menoras (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 8. Seforno's Work Ethic (Yitzchok Levine)
• 9. Kiddush Hashem in the Holocaust (Dov Kay)
• 10. Re: Practical Psak: Circular Menoras (Micha Berger)
• 11. Haym Solveitchik (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: Chalav stam (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: Seforno's Work Ethic (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Rav Shteinman and Niagra Falls (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Rav Shteinman and Niagra Falls (Rich, Joel)

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:58:47AM -0500, Noah Witty wrote:
: RMF, ztz"l, has four chalav yisrael/chalav stam teshuvos. If you follow 
: them by the dates, it is remarkable how his language, meaning choice of
: words, shifts and slides towards a nuanced chumra as the chronology 
: roles forward--perhaps some of it due to the person/institution asking
: the question, indicating special/different circumstances--while still 
: adhering, as I recall, to the basic notion that we may without doubt 
: rely upon the government's oversight.

Another thing that changed over time was the amount of effort it took to
follow the chumrah. RMF may be giving a very consistent picture over
time, but the language changes as the difficulty descreased.

With the exception of the yeshiva, where the IM mixes in chinukh issues
to justify using chumeros one may choose not to bother with at home.

: For literalists, you might want to contact the O-U and inquire why/how 
: they give hashgacha on take-out fleishiks (might apply to fish as well)
: that, in fact, does not have 2 chosamos.  I called and was told that the 
: purpose of the chosamos was to make the package tamper-evident. I am
: puzzled by the circumvention of the literal words of the gemara--but we 
: know that about 600-800 years ago Tosafos already did this for clapping
: hands on Shabbos and YT. 

Other cases:
    Electric shaving
    Basar kafui
    as RNW implied by juxtaposition -- chalav hacompanies
    Beis Yaakov
    etc, etc, etc...

One thing I don't know how is decided is when a statement is taken as an
example of an underlying principle, and when it's taken literally. But I
gues that's what RNW wants someone to get from the OU.

In the case of the Tosafos on clapping on Shabbos and the IM on chalav
yisrael, the rationale post-dates the norm. The fact that others the
author considered more authoritative than themselves seemed to have
approved motivates rationales that they might not otherwise use.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

Topical to the conversation here about Rav Hirsch, ztl,?and the Swiss Alps,
within the past year or so, the Jewish Observer had an article about a
recent trip Rav Shteinman, shlita,?made to various U.S. cities.? As his
plane was flying over Niagra Falls, his travelling companions were looking
out the window, and marveling at this great natural wonder.? They urged him
to look out the window also.? Rav Shteinman was learning gemara, and he
said, No.? They later asked him, Why?? He responded that it was a sheilah
as to whether he could make a bracha on seeing Niagra Falls, and therefore,
a sheila as to whether he could interrupt his gemara learning.

Two different hashkafas.

Elliot Pasik
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In Avodah 25:405, RMB wrote:
> RRW seems to be descriing a world in which someday a good peice of
> software running atop the Bar Ilan CD might be a better poseiq than
> any human.

Not necessarily. If I understand correctly, RRW still leaves room for 
developments in halakhah, but wouldn't want these developments to creep in 
into lema'asseh until the innovation has been digested and criticized and 
quoted. Thus, humans would still be those who suggest developments and come up 
with hidushim, but an impersonal algorithm would prevent any chiduush from 
seeping into practice too soon.

Still, I side more with RMB, while aknowledging that it is open to abuse, 
which RRW's system prevents.
-- 
Arie Folger
http://ariefolger.wordpress.com
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

 
In a message dated 12/10/2008 11:45:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Nochach  
Witty writes:

take-out  fleishiks (might apply to fish as well)
that, in fact, does not have 2  chosamos


One agency I work for has the take-out places put a paper with the date and  
time uf delivery and the mashgiach's signature  on the package and staple  
that  on. Shouldn't that qualify as 2 chosamos?
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This is one of the reasons that a rebbetzin I know buys organic vegis and 
not Gush Qatif stuff. She says that you can easily check for the large bugs 
and don't have to eat the pesticides.

Ben
> >
> In the days before insecticide, there were more larger bugs, keeping the
> nearly (but not quite) invisible ones' population down.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> 

R' Danny Schoemann wrote:
> Reading the Tur is eye-opening and somewhat disconcerting.
> He states that his father (the Rosh) washed before Kiddush
> and then goes on about how wrong that is and makes it
> clear that he doesn't follow his father's Minhag!
> ...
> How could the Tur reject his father's way of doing things?

Please note these two phrases: "his father's Minhag" as opposed to "his father's way of doing things".

I have long wondered about the difference between these two very different ideas.

In my understanding, a "father's minhag" refers to something subject to the
halacha of "Shema Beni Musar Avicha v'Al Titosh Toras Imecha." In contrast,
a "father's way of doing things" is simply that and no more.

I daresay that *none* of us do *everything* in the *exact* same manner as
our parents. Some things are mere personal preference. I'd love to give
examples, but that would sidetrack the conversation.

The point I'm trying to make is that perhaps - PERHAPS! - in the Rosh's
time, there was not yet any real halacha or minhag about whether to wash
before kiddush or afterward. People - including both the Rosh and the Tur -
simply did what they felt best.

(If anyone would like to attempt defining the line between a "minhag" and a "way of doing things", please start a new thread for it.)

Akiva Miller

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R' Danny Schoemann asked:
> The Gemora clearly states one can fill a bowl with oil,
> surround it with wicks, cover it and use it for a Chanuka
> Menora (Chanukia in modern Hebrew).
> The Shulchan Aruch paskens this (271:4), the Remo is more
> reluctant though he allows a circular Menora.
> The Biur Halocho bring a Rsh"l who says that round is not
> Hidur Mitzva.
> Contemporary authors make it sound like [semi-]circular
> Menoras are no good.

If you learn these sources carefully, you'll see that the shape (or
existence) of the menorah is a relatively minor concern. The major concern
is that it should be clear to passers-by how many people have it. The
distance between the flames is a primary factor in this appearance, and the
shape (or existence) of the menora is of secondary significance.

For example, see MB 671:12 (towards the end), where he explicitly says that
when using a menorah, one person can put his lights at one end, and another
person can put his lights at the other end, provided that there is enough
space between them to make it obvous that two people lit.

Now, go back and learn those sources again. This time, pay attention to
when it is talking about positioning the lights - which you will find to be
very frequent - and when it is talking about the shape of the menorah -
which you will find to be very rare, perhaps even nonexistent except for
the most recent sources. It might be significant that when the MB above
mentioned a menora, he added the word "shelanu" -- suggesting that it was a
rather recent invention in his day.

Akiva Miller

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 From http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2008/12/sefornos-work-ethic.html

The Seforno commenting on (Gen. 29:18) says

There is no doubt that this righteous man (Ya'akov) would not marry 
and have children if he did not have a way to support them, 
particularly with food and clothes.

Yitzchok Levine 
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Apropos to the recent threat concerning the possibility of kiddush hashem
where the victims have no choice in the matter, see R. Tamir Granot's shiur
at http:
//www.vbm-torah.org/archive/shoah/12a-shoah.htm#_ftnref2. This forms
part of his superb series of shiurim on Faith and the Holocaust, which deal
more generally with the Orthodox attitude to Zionism.
 
Kol tuv 
Dov Kay
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On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 06:52:14PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: It might be significant that when the MB above mentioned a menora,
: he added the word "shelanu" -- suggesting that it was a rather recent
: invention in his day.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hanukkah1.jpg>
> Various menorot used for Hanukkah (Hanukiot). Taken from the 1901-1906
> Jewish Encyclopedia, now in the public domain. The locations of the
> hanukiot given below reflect their locations as of the publication of
> the Jewish Encyclopedia and not their present locations.

> 1. Bronze, French, attributed to 12th cent. (in the Mus.e de
>    Cluny, Paris).
...

So, there were menoros in use centuries before the SA.

To reopen the question, why then don't we see discussion of them amongst
rishonim?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

from a review of Haym Soloveitchik's recent book on
Yayin Nesech

Historians commonly think that the early Jewish community in Ashkenaz
received its traditions from the Land of Israel. Soloveitchik
questions this assumption and demonstrates that halakhic traditions
also reached Ashkenaz from Babylonia. But there is still no serious
question about the fact that the liturgy of the Land of Israel had a
decisive influence on the prayers and blessings. If one asks how the
traditions made their way to Germany - whether originally from Babylon
or from Palestine - the answer is, via international trade. From the
palaces of the German emperors (in Aachen and Ingleheim), merchants
and emissaries were dispatched to every part of the world, from China
and India to Byzantium and Babylonia, the Land of Israel, Libya,
Alexandria and Yemen. Perhaps of particular interest is the fact that
the oldest known copy of Rashi?s commentaries is a Yemenite manuscript
from 1192, commentary on the Talmudic tractate of Baba Metzi'a.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1044713.html

-- 
Eli Turkel

 

In the case of the Tosafos on clapping on Shabbos and the IM on chalav
yisrael, the rationale post-dates the norm. The fact that others the
author considered more authoritative than themselves seemed to have
approved motivates rationales that they might not otherwise use.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
===========================================================
And yet , imho, when it's something the posek doesn't like, he assumes
the same earlier Rabbis objected but no one listened. As you and R'RW
have gone around many times - imho - the bottom line is the posek is
subject to constraints but has a tremendous amount of autonomy where to
land within those constraints and you will not be able to come up with
an accurate algorithm which fits all the data points of his decisions
(and certainly not be able to say "the halacha is" based on hard and
fast rules of psak.)
KT
Joel Rich
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Yitzchok Levine wrote:
>   From http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2008/12/sefornos-work-ethic.html
> 
> The Seforno commenting on (Gen. 29:18) says
> 
> There is no doubt that this righteous man (Ya'akov) would not marry and 
> have children if he did not have a way to support them, particularly 
> with food and clothes.

Presumably they were fed and clothed by Lavan, just as he was.  If you
have someone working for you full time, and you're not paying him, then
you have to provide his basic needs, and those of his dependants, or
else you'll get no useful work out of him.

Even a slave owner has to look after his slaves for this reason.
When Yosef enslaved the Mitzrim he determined that 80% of their produce
was necessary to maintain them and their families, and to replant the
fields, and only 20% was excess that he could take for Par'oh.

I've read that in the antebellum South it was common to send a slave to
the city and have him find lodging, take a job, pay for all his expenses
out of his wages, and send the rest home to his master; and that the
expected return on such a slave was about 20% of his wages.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

efpa...@aol.com wrote:
> They urged him to look out the window also.  Rav Shteinman was 
> learning gemara, and he said, No.  They later asked him, Why?  He 
> responded that it was a sheilah as to whether he could make a bracha on 
> seeing Niagara Falls, and therefore, a sheila as to whether he could 
> interrupt his gemara learning.

Maybe he just wants to avoid kaf hakela`.  Did that not occur to anybody?
Cheizu dehai `alma is not an unadulterated good.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

 

        
        
        
        Topical to the conversation here about Rav Hirsch, ztl, and the
Swiss Alps, within the past year or so, the Jewish Observer had an
article about a recent trip Rav Shteinman, shlita, made to various U.S.
cities.  As his plane was flying over Niagra Falls, his travelling
companions were looking out the window, and marveling at this great
natural wonder.  They urged him to look out the window also.  Rav
Shteinman was learning gemara, and he said, No.  They later asked him,
Why?  He responded that it was a sheilah as to whether he could make a
bracha on seeing Niagra Falls, and therefore, a sheila as to whether he
could interrupt his gemara learning.
        
        Two different hashkafas.
        
        Elliot Pasik 

         ==================
        Or perhaps just 2 different people's sensitivities - perhaps
natural wonders do not speak to R' Shteinman (and if they did he would
have looked)
        KT
        Joel Rich 

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