Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 407

Mon, 08 Dec 2008

• 1. Re: effects of religous worship on health (T6...@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Sephardi-ism: some food for thought (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Re: R' Aviner on gadol hador status (T6...@aol.com)
• 4. Power of shofet/reish gluta (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Questions as a Result of the Flatbush Lakewood Shabbos (Yitzchok Levine)
• 6. The more one has ... (Yitzchok Levine)
• 7. Re: Questions as a Result of the Flatbush Lakewood Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Questions as a Result of the Flatbush Lakewood Shabbos (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Questions as a Result of the Flatbush Lakewood Shabbos (T613K@aol.com)

 
 
In a message dated 12/5/2008, RMB writes:

>>  I recall R' Freifeld (among a general sense of "everyone says")
citing a  maamar chazal that makes a general statement: Ein haberakhah
shurah bedavar  shesamui min ha'ayin. <<



>>>>>
I think you meant to say "Ein  haberakhah
shurah ELA bedavar shesamui min ha'ayin."


--Toby Katz
=============
"If you don't read the  newspaper you are uninformed; 
if you do read the newspaper you are  misinformed."
--Mark Twain
Read *Jewish World Review* at _http://jewishworldreview.com/_ 
(http://jewishworldreview.com/) 
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On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Yitzhak Grossman <cele...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:56:55 -0500
> Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > RRW seems to be descriing a world in which someday a good peice of
> > software running atop the Bar Ilan CD might be a better poseiq than
> > any human.
>
> This could be true independent of any model of Halachah and Pesak, if
> one assumes the possibility of the development of serious AI.
>
> Yitzhak
>

It's one of the reasons to HAVE a Bar-Ilan Teshuvos project in the first
place!

But ascribing this to me is silly. Beis Yosef, kaf hachahim, ROY and others
use a simlar technique.  But pershaps the greatest example in Ashknenaz is
the monumentl encyclopedic Darchei Teshuva on YD.  But even Pischei Teshuva
and Sha'arei Teshuva do this, too.

I don't understsand how a criticms of X can create an entire pgeonhole
characterizaiotn or extrapolation of a person's OWN methodology.  It is
indeed quie silly. I am merely pointeing out that many ashkenazic 20th
cnetury posqim will tangentially throw in a shita as a given as if it wer a
kayma lan that all concur when as am atter of fact the issue is in serious
dispute. I find it annoying at times because the less educated reder will be
easily bamboozled.

As far as any single methodlogy, voting by Bar-Ilan CD-ROM might e A method
but it is not MY METHOD.  All I am asking is that posqim subject themselvs
to ANY objeective method so that their own egos will not allow them to come
u pwith highly subjective deicions that would tilt Halachah agaisnt heir own
philosophy when they "feel" it is rght.

lehavdil, Mario Cuomo opposed the death penalty. He was aksed well what if
HIS sister had been brutally raped? And he responded that is why law should
be dispasionate and objective and not about personal emotions.

It would seemto me that those sho subscribe to the Mussar schoold would
realize that even Gedolim have egos, and it is best that if they are being
dan yechidi [as opposed to sitting in a BD] that they submit themselves to a
metholodgy that would serve as a check and balance.

That is THE only thing I can be pinpointed on so far. The call for a more
obejctive system of ps'ak. BY subjected himself. A pretty good example. But
the Ga'onim came up with a about 2 pages of rules on how to pasqen.
Objective rules for psaq are not new at all. They are quite traditional.
-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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From: Micha Berger _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:mi...@aishdas.org) 

RMB:  The  Besht was known as a Baal Shem. The Gra, for his learning in
halakhah. Apples  and oranges.

 


TK:  No, the Besht was known as one of the greatest leaders of Klal  Yisrael 
in the past several centuries, the founder of the Chassidic movement,  and as 
the person who did more to save Eastern European Jewry from shmad and  haskala 
than any other single person in the past three hundred  years.

RMB:  If "Gadol haDor" relates to halachic  leadership.....
 
 
TK:  Stop right there.  "Gadol hador" relates to being the  greatest Torah 
leader, or one of the greatest, of your generation.
 
 
RMB:  However, RnTK's point here is inaccurate.

First, the  Ramchal died 14 years before the Besh"t. He was recognized,
despite dying at  39. He, like the Besh"t, didn't become famous on the
weight of his pesaqim.  But you can't conclude anything from the fact
that today we don't turn to  people for leadership, to even look to see
who is great, until they reach  their 50s.
 
TK:  If somebody becomes famous, fulfills his life's work, and dies --  all 
before the age of fifty -- then in his case, it is not necessary to turn  fifty 
before becoming "the" godol hador, if there is such a thing as "the" godol  
hador. (I don't think that every dor has just one person who so towers over his 
 contemporaries as to leave the question fully settled -- only once in a 
while is  there such a dor, or such a person.)  In most cases, gedolim are only  
recognized as such late in their lives or even posthumously.

RMB:   BTW, is fame, in the form of being known and actually providing
leadership,  part of your definition of a gadol? 
 
TK:  Yes.
 
RMB:  What if the greatest
mind of the generation is sitting in the  back of a tiny beis medrash
somewhere going totally unnoticed?
 
TK:  Then he is not the godol hador.





--Toby Katz
=============
"If you don't read the  newspaper you are uninformed; 
if you do read the newspaper you are  misinformed."
--Mark Twain
Read *Jewish World Review* at _http://jewishworldreview.com/_ 
(http://jewishworldreview.com/) 

**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
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Rambam Sanhedrin 4:13 claims that "Roshei galuyot bbavel bmkom melech
hein omdim." It's certainly a fascinating assertion - what does bmkom
mean?
For example, does he need to keep a sefer torah with him.....? Do we
think it was duraita or halacha moshe misinai what to do after a melech
had been chosen and then the position phased out by life around it? From
whence did the power of premelech leadership(shoftim) flow?

KT
Joel Rich
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This past Shabbos was "Lakewood Shabbos" in Flatbush. Various Roshei 
Yeshiva spoke at shuls throughout Shabbos. I heard part of a drasha 
given at a nearby shul at Seuda Shlishis.

One of the Roshei Yeshiva eloquently spoke about the years that 
Yaakov spent studying in the yeshiva of Shem V'Ever. (As we all know, 
these years are not mentioned openly in the Chumash.) However, he 
failed to make any mention that the Torah tells us in considerable 
detail how Yaakov worked diligently for Lavan for 20 years. It would 
seem to me that years of work in order to support a family are 
considered of some importance, given that the Torah mentions them. 
Indeed, might one deduce that the fact that these years are discussed 
openly in the Torah whereas the years of Torah learning are not, that 
these years of work are perhaps considered more important by the 
Torah? I am simply asking, because I really do not have the 
answer.  (Perhaps some will consider even raising the issue blasphemous.)

I davened with the Maariv minyan at which the Rosh Yeshiva davened. 
(This Shtiebel has a practice of making several minyanim for Maariv 
on Motzoei Shabbos.) When it came to Shemoneh Esrei, it took the Rosh 
Yeshiva a long time to daven. Indeed, the Rov of the shul as well as 
all of the others who davened with this minyan finished well before 
the Rosh Yeshiva and therefore had to wait a good few minutes for the 
Rosh Yeshiva to finish. In light of the piece below, I can only 
wonder if what he did was appropriate.

 From The Mussar Movement, Volume I, part 2, pages 224 - 225.

Praying alone on Saturday nights or at the end of fast days, R. 
Israel would defer his Tefillah till an hour or more after dark. When 
praying with the congregation however, he would hurry to start 
immediately and not wait a minute beyond the earliest permissible 
time, so as not to hold back the congregation. So, too, he would take 
very long to recite the Tefillah when alone. When he prayed with a 
congregation that would wait for him to finish, however, he would be 
among the first, "so as not to burden the public." Even in the month 
of Elul and the Ten Days of Penitence, when he would observe special 
stringencies, he would only take a little longer than usual to recite 
the first three berachot of the Shemoneh Esreh, but hurry through the 
rest as was his custom, and so finish together with the congregation.

I am not in anyway trying to disparage this Rosh Yeshiva. However, 
when I see things that do not make sense to me, I feel that I should 
raise questions about them.

Any constructive insight you can supply will be appreciated.


Yitzchok Levine 
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 From the new translation of RSRH's commentary on Bereishis  32: 11 I 
have become too small from all the kindness and all the faithfulness
that You have rendered to Your servant, for with [only] my staff I 
crossed this Yarden, and now I have become two camps.

I am not praying and appealing for myself; I have already received from
You so much that I am unable to thank You for it all; I am diminished
from all the kindness. For a person's stature is not measured by the
absolute amount of his accomplishments, but by the relative magnitude
of his accomplishment, compared to what he received. The more one
has, the greater the danger to him of being diminished in merit. 
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On Sun, Dec 07, 2008 at 08:59:18AM -0500, Yitzchok Levine wrote:
: One of the Roshei Yeshiva eloquently spoke about the years that 
: Yaakov spent studying in the yeshiva of Shem V'Ever. (As we all know, 
: these years are not mentioned openly in the Chumash.) However, he 
: failed to make any mention that the Torah tells us in considerable 
: detail how Yaakov worked diligently for Lavan for 20 years. It would 
: seem to me that years of work in order to support a family are 
: considered of some importance, given that the Torah mentions them. 
...

Yaaqov was punished for not leaving a message home while at Lavan's. He
was away at Yeshivas Eiver for 14 years, and at Lavan's for another 22.
Note that Yoseif didn't contact him for 22 years, the same length of time
as his time at Lavan. Not contacting Yitzchaq and Rivqa while learning
appears to be more justifiable.

It would seem that the importance isn't comparable. Also, the first 14
of the 22 years weren't for money.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

 

-----Original Message-----
From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org
[mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Micha Berger
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:27 PM
To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Questions as a Result of the Flatbush Lakewood
Shabbos

On Sun, Dec 07, 2008 at 08:59:18AM -0500, Yitzchok Levine wrote:
: One of the Roshei Yeshiva eloquently spoke about the years that
: Yaakov spent studying in the yeshiva of Shem V'Ever. (As we all know,
: these years are not mentioned openly in the Chumash.) However, he
: failed to make any mention that the Torah tells us in considerable
: detail how Yaakov worked diligently for Lavan for 20 years. It would
: seem to me that years of work in order to support a family are
: considered of some importance, given that the Torah mentions them. 
...

Yaaqov was punished for not leaving a message home while at Lavan's. He
was away at Yeshivas Eiver for 14 years, and at Lavan's for another 22.
Note that Yoseif didn't contact him for 22 years, the same length of
time as his time at Lavan. Not contacting Yitzchaq and Rivqa while
learning appears to be more justifiable.

It would seem that the importance isn't comparable. Also, the first 14
of the 22 years weren't for money.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
==========================
IIRC my son told me a dvar torah from R' A Lichtenstein that Yaakov saw
angels both times - that growing and supporting a family and learning
when one can is on the same level (or something like that)
KT
Joel Rich
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In a message dated 12/7/2008, R' Yitzchok Levine writes: 


RYL:  >> One of the Roshei Yeshiva  eloquently spoke about the years that 
Yaakov spent studying in the yeshiva of  Shem V'Ever. (As we all know, these 
years are not mentioned openly in the  Chumash.) However, he failed to make any 
mention that the Torah tells us in  considerable detail how Yaakov worked 
diligently for Lavan for 20 years. It  would seem to me that years of work in order 
to support a family are  considered of some importance, given that the Torah 
mentions them.  <<
TK:  No one needs constant propaganda to persuade men to work -- the  press 
of financial need ensures that most men will eventually work.  What  they need 
constant reinforcement for is the ideal of "sitting and learning" -- a  life 
that is unnatural and can only be maintained by withstanding severe  financial 
and social pressures.  I myself am highly ambivalent about the  
kollel-forever-for-everyone ideal, but that's for Areivim I guess. There was one  Shevet 
Levi and also one Shevet Yisachar, so maybe a proportion of one out of  every six 
bnai Torah spending their lives in full-time Torah, supported by the  other 
five, would be reasonable? Not sure.  In any case, in my book Zevulun  is as 
important as Yisachar and they are both engaged in avodas Hashem of the  highest 
degree.  I think "my book" is the Torah.
 
 

RLL:  >> When it came to Shemoneh Esrei, it took the Rosh  Yeshiva a long 
time to daven. Indeed, the Rov of the shul as well as all of  the others who 
davened with this minyan finished well before the Rosh Yeshiva  and therefore had 
to wait a good few minutes for the Rosh Yeshiva to finish.  In light of the 
piece below, I can only wonder if what he did was appropriate.  <<
 
TK:  I am guessing that he always davens a long shmoneh esreh and  that it 
isn't a problem in Lakewood. If everybody davens long then it's not  tircha 
detzibura.   He probably concentrates on his own tefilla to the  extent that he 
was not aware that others were waiting for him.  And maybe  it does some baale 
batim good just once in a while to see a person take his time  to say each and 
every word with care.  And in the words of the famous  Milton poem, "They also 
serve, who only stand and wait."  They watched the  Rosh Yeshiva daven and 
they waited for him to finish -- that is kovod  haTorah.
 

--Toby Katz
=============
"If you don't read the  newspaper you are uninformed; 
if you do read the newspaper you are  misinformed."
--Mark Twain
Read *Jewish World Review* at _http://jewishworldreview.com/_ 
(http://jewishworldreview.com/) 
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place.  Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&;icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
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