Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 393

Sun, 23 Nov 2008

• 1. Melekh velo Malka (Micha Berger)
• 2. Downloading: An Essay for the MTA Academy News (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 3. Re: a troubling halacha (Chana Luntz)
• 4. Re: Some thoughts on Shemonah Perakim (Chana Luntz)
• 5. Toldos "There's Hope For The Worst Of Us" (Cantor Wolberg)
• 6. shiurim (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: shiurim (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: shiurim (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: shiurim (Zev Sero)
• 10. a troubling halacha (Eli Turkel)

The current issue of Kol Hamevaser (a YU student body Jewish thought
magazine that looks like a newspaper <http://www.kolhamevaser.com/>)
is about "Politics and Leadership".

Among the articles are two on the halakhos of women and serarah.
Yossi Steinberger: "Mrs. Prime Minister"
http://www.kolhamevaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/simcha-2-yos
si-1.pdf
http://www.kolhamevaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/yossi-2.pdf

Elisheva Schlanger: "Women in Positions of Leadership: Melekh ve-Lo
Malkah Reexamined"
http://www.kolhamevaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/schlanger-1.pdf
http://www.kolhamevaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/schlanger-
2-lamm-1.pdf

You'll notice that the first article, footnote xi, quotes RnCL in Avodah
v2n1.

Consider the conversation belatedly re-opened.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

This issue's ethical dilemma is:
?Downloading from LimeWire. You're not paying, but you're not taking 
anything tangible. Is this kosher??
Technical note - LimeWire is a "P2P" or peer-to-peer networking service, 
in which users upload anything - movies, music, games, software - and 
can be downloaded, for free, by virtually anyone.

In my experience whenever I hold a Q&A session with a group of teens or 
college students, the question of downloading music, etc., is one of the 
first questions that will be raised. Moreover, even boys and men who in 
other issues are meticulous in their quest to act /lifnim me'shuras 
ha'din/ (beyond the letter of the law), when it comes to this issue, 
they very much want to know the minimalist Halachic position ? i.e., how 
much they can ?get away with? and still technically be within the bounds 
of Jewish law.

Accordingly, let me begin by stating that from an /ethical/ perspective, 
it behooves a /Be en Torah/ who aspires to rise above mere technical 
compliance with Halacha, to refrain from any form of downloading which 
is questionable. Most of us ? although we may deny this when we are in 
rationalization mode ? know very well when what we are doing falls into 
that gray area. If you are still unsure as to the definition of this 
category, by all means consult one of your /Rabbeim/.

Returning, however, to the question of the minimalist Halachic position 
in this area, Rabbi Yitzchak Yosef /shlita/ (the son of Rabbi Ovadia 
Yosef /shlita/) refers to the Gemara in /Bava Metzia/ (24a-b) that 
discusses an object that was swept away by a tidal wave (/zuto shel 
yam/). In that case, we regard the object as a lot item whose owner has 
given up all hope of retrieval (/l'achar yei'ush/). This is the case 
even if the owner watching the tidal wave sweep away his possession 
declares and affirms that he is not giving up the hope of retrieving his 
object. Under the circumstances, his declaration is meaningless, as the 
hope of retrieval is regarded as little more than a fantasy.

Any music that is freely and widely available on the web falls into this 
category. Any hope that the owner may have of retaining or retrieving 
his intellectual property is futile and meaningless. Hence, one would be 
permitted to download such music for personal use.

Please note that this is not /carte blanche/. This logic will not permit:

   1.

      Uploading music to such sites.

   2.

      Copying from CDs or DVDs.

   3.

      Selling the downloaded music to others or sharing it with people
      who cannot access it themselves over the Internet.

   4.

      Downloading music from hacking sites.



--
Posted By YGB to YGB - ??"? 
<http://rygb.blogspot.com/2008/11/downloading-essay-for-mta-academy
-news.html> 
at 11/21/2008 03:56:00 P
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RDS writes:
> Why don't we simply assume that it has nothing to do with the 
> Avel, but rather with the bearer of the news.
> 
> Shlomo Hamelech asserted: Being the harbinger of bad news is 
> foolish. Why would anybody want to be the town fool?

It is not so clear to me that when Shlomo HaMelech wrote the pasuk in Mishle
U'motzei d'vara hu k'sil (Mishlei 10:18) he was actually referring to this
case.  The context of the pasuk would rather seem to indicate that it is
talking about untruthful speech, and indeed all the  meforshim, including
Rashi, use the word "laz" to explain d'vara.

And in fact the Ramban on Bamidbar 13:32-33 distinguishes between using the
language "motzei d'vara" which, after quoting this Mishle he says relates to
something sheker (as in, the meraglim where it uses this term) and "mevi
dvara" which refers to a matter which is emet, which is what is used vis a
vis Yosef and his brothers, and for which the Torah then has to add the word
"ra", as such a matter could be either  bad or good.

Now Rashi on 14:36 does seem to say differently where he suggests that
"hotzei d'vara" is an expression of "chinuch d'varim" in which one is
teaching a person how to speak, and he states that this can be used both for
bad and good.  However the Ramban commenting on this in 14:37 specifically
disagrees - with one of the proof texts that he brings being this pasuk from
Mishlei.

So given that background, the use of this posek in both the gemora in
Pesachim 3b and the Mordechai/Shulchan Aruch is rather suprising.

Perhaps the gemora itself is not so surprising.  The topic of that gemora is
speaking in ways that are either not appropriate (using certain language
rather than alternative more tzniusdik language to describe a woman on a
horse for example) or not so preferable (using the term tameh rather than
aino tahor for example).  But in each case not only the incorrect but the
correct way of speaking is brought by the gemora and that is generally by
the use of euphemisms or alternative methods to convey the same message, not
a failure to convey the message at all.  In that context, the use of the
pasuk from Mishlei to convey the message that in fact Rav Kahana had died
would fit within that category, and would not necessarily imply more.

The only person I could find commentating, in my quick look through my
library on this (aside from what we have discussed) is the Meiri who says:
Roi l'adam gum ken l'zahir shelo yiye m'zuman lbshura shel parunios k'gon
misa ladam gadol u'keyetzei b'zeh v'im shoalin oso b'kach rashai l'gamgem
b'dvarim ad sheyavin hainyan mitoch d'varav v'lo sheamruhu l'hedi"a

Note that thr Meiri appears to believe that this applies to the general
telling in relation to an adam gadol and not specifically in relation to
telling a relative about somebody who may not fall within that category.  Of
course, if we held like this, presumably those banner headlines all over our
newspapers and pashkvils saying "Baruch Dayan Emet" every time an adam gadol
passes away would be considered assur, whereas it is not so clear that
telling a karov is.  I think that is really the answer to the question you
pose above "Why don't we simply assume that it has nothing to do with the
Avel, but rather with the bearer of the news" - because if it was, it would
apply beyond the Avel, and apply more in the case of an adam gadol whose
passing affects all of klal yisroel than it does to yankel shmerel.  But in
practice we don't seem to posken like that, and we do put up big banners and
encourage people to go to levayas etc etc.  The only place we seem to apply
it l'halacha is vis a vis an avel, and that would seem to suggest it is avel
specific.

>
> - Danny

Shavuah tov

Chana

RMB writes:

> Here's what I am (at this point) now trying to disagree about):
> 
> Other than cases of eiruvin and agunah (and maybe some 
> instances of mamzeirus), I just through of hefsed merubah (I 
> think also only in derabbanan), and perhaps other dinim of 
> which I am unaware, would R' Zevin tell the poseiq that being 
> meiqil has value in and of itself, as an expression of Beis 
> Hillel's pursuit of midas hachessed?
> 
> Of course one can't use chessed to justify mutating pesaq, 
> but it is a "pro" to weigh -- or even to hunt out -- when 
> faced with multiple justifiable answers?

I have no clue about R' Zevin but you are forgetting about a whole range of
halachic concepts which we do find throughout the literature operate to
mitigate or and in some cases overrule what might otherwise be the
straightforward psak - kavod habriyos (definitely d'rabbanans and at least
shev v'al ta'ase d'orisas, some hold d'orisas), darkei shalom, shalom bayis,
pikuach nefesh, b'shas hadchak (often the definition of a  shas hadchak is
rooted in chessed type considerations of what is possible) even lifnin
meshuras hadin somewhat - these are off the top of my head there are
probably more.  These are, to my mind, the way the midas hachessed in
encapsulated within the halacha and used to enable the weighing to take
place with the fullest consideration of all the circumstances.

> You're advocating doing so, except in cases of competing 
> litigants, as well as other cases you don't yet articulate 
> but parallel RMSS's example WRT mamzeirus.
> 
> I am saying there are a handful of cases where one would do 
> so, although hefsed merubah (even if only WRT derabbanan) is 
> a frequently occuring one.

Hefsed meruba is just one of these, it takes into account the financial
situation of the person in question, other take into account their physical
situation, their relationship to others etc.  But all have them have been
utilised in this overarching way, spanning the specifics of a given area of
halacha to deal in generalities.

> :-)BBii!
> -Micha

Shavuah tov

Chana

The sages envision a day when God will come to judge the Jewish people  
for their sins, and Yitzchok will rise to defend them.  Why Yitzchok?   
                                                                                                Because he will be entitled to say to God,  
?I had a wicked child and I loved him. Can You not do the same?? (BT  
Shab.89a).

In some way this mentality can be compared to how Avraham pleaded for  
the evil people of Sodom; but in this case it's much more powerful,  
since 
                                                                                         Yitzchok 
  is not pleading for strangers. He's pleading for his flesh and  
blood. Also, Yitzchok was willing to be sacrificed for God, so now he  
hopes that God will return the favor.

rw
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<<Similarly, in his letter to R Avrohom Chaim Noeh about his
position on shiurim he admits that he has no real proof, but "libi omer
li" that he is correct, and he would pasken that way "afilu lehatir eshet
ish".  IOW if a man were to throw a get to his wife, and it were to land
within four CI-amot of her, the CI would allow her to remarry.  That's
the koach dehetera that he found to demonstrate how strongly he held his
position.>>

All (charediAshkenaz )sefarim that I know pasken like the shiurim of CI
only for chumrah but not for kulah. I believe that CI himself says,
i.e. one should not carry a little less 4 amot in reshut harabim based on
CI shiur

-- 
Eli Turkel

Eli Turkel wrote:
> <<Similarly, in his letter to R Avrohom Chaim Noeh about his
> position on shiurim he admits that he has no real proof, but "libi omer
> li" that he is correct, and he would pasken that way "afilu lehatir eshet
> ish".  IOW if a man were to throw a get to his wife, and it were to land
> within four CI-amot of her, the CI would allow her to remarry.  That's
> the koach dehetera that he found to demonstrate how strongly he held his
> position.>>
> 
> All (charediAshkenaz )sefarim that I know pasken like the shiurim of CI
> only for chumrah but not for kulah. I believe that CI himself says,
> i.e. one should not carry a little less 4 amot in reshut harabim based on
> CI shiur

The letter, dated Menachem-Av 5704, is printed in Shiurei Mikveh; the
relevant part is on page 8.  "Ve'omnam libi onsani, velibi omer li, ki
midat agudal benoni etzlenu hu 2.5 cm, vehu davar muram mikol safek,
ve'efshar lehatir eshet ish ulhotzi mamon bemidat emet kazeh."

In footnote 13, RACN writes that "a certain chacham wrote a year ago
in the CI's name" to be machmir in Torah questions according to both
shitot, and that "half a year ago that same chacham wrote that some
achronim hold this way", and points out that this contradicts the CI's
own letter.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

From the sefer of Beinish on Midot and Shiurim of the Torah  p74(my translation)

"Everything I wrote is only to be machmir but in places that the shiur of
our rabbis the achronim (i.e. Nodah BeYehudah and others) results in a
Kulah in a Torah halacha then it is proper for those fearful of paskening
(mi-yireh horaah) to be machmir"

This is an addition to the second edition (mahadura batra) of the kuntress
le-shiurim by the CI and does not appear in the first edition

The Steipler in his sefer Shiurei haMitzvot which he wrote according to
the psak of CIalso writes that the shiur of an egg being 45-50 grams
is a chumra and similarly for the size of the agudal

Eli Turkel

Eli Turkel wrote:
>>From the sefer of Beinish on Midot and Shiurim of the Torah  p74(my translation)
> 
> "Everything I wrote is only to be machmir but in places that the shiur of
> our rabbis the achronim (i.e. Nodah BeYehudah and others) results in a
> Kulah in a Torah halacha then it is proper for those fearful of paskening
> (mi-yireh horaah) to be machmir"
> 
> This is an addition to the second edition (mahadura batra) of the kuntress
> le-shiurim by the CI and does not appear in the first edition
> 
> The Steipler in his sefer Shiurei haMitzvot which he wrote according to
> the psak of CIalso writes that the shiur of an egg being 45-50 grams
> is a chumra and similarly for the size of the agudal

Yes, the "chacham echad" referred to in the footnote I quoted earlier
was probably the Steipler.  But his claims are contradicted by the CI's
own letter.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

<<Perhaps not that often, but those who stayed in their birth town
would naturally hear about the death, it would be impossible to keep
it from them, and so this whole topic would not be relevant.  The
question of whether to tell, how to tell, and how long to wait, only
arises when someone is far away (as R Chiya was from Rav's parents)
so that if nobody tells him what happened he won't know.>>

R. Zilberstein in the shiur explicitly said not to put up mourning posters
(common in Israel) if that will lead to female members finding out about
the death.
So he considers the possibility that even for relatives in town one should
hide the information if possible

-- 
Eli Turkel


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