Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 380

Sun, 09 Nov 2008

• 1. Aveilus (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Subject: Sandakos (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Re: Another View on How to Portray People of the (david guttmann)
• 4. Re: a troubling halacha (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. Re: Another View on How to Portray People of the Past (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: How the Torah portrays our great men (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: a troubling halacha (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Another View on How to Portray People of the Past (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Vayeira Imitatio Dei, as well as Mipnei Darkhei Shalom (Cantor Wolberg)
• 10. Re: How the Torah portrays our great men (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Question on Avraham's Behavior (T6...@aol.com)
• 12. a troubling halacha (Eli Turkel)

I once saw a beautiful teshuva regarding the halacha of the length of  
aveilus and the seeming disparity between only 30 days for a child and  
a year for parents.
When parents loses a child they will be mourning the rest of their  
lives, therefore, in order not to exacerbate it, halacha has  
compassionately made the (external)
aveilus for only 30 days. For a parent, however, children easily  
forget and need to be reminded. Therefore -- the year. It reminds one  
of a parent can care for ten
children, but ten children can't care for one parent.
Obviously the explanation is a generality but it is something to think  
about.
Also, I'm not really doing justice in explaining it the way I saw it  
originally.
ri 

R' Jonathan Baker wrote:
<...Now, any given kohen cannot offer incense more than once (presumably aside
<from the kohen gadol, who deals with it every year at Yom Kippur).  So
<too today, any given person does not serve as sandek for two brothers
<from the same immediate family.

The Gra in Shulchan Aruch points out the fallacies in this reasoning.
First of all he says that there is no halacha that a Kohen cannot
bring incense more then once, rather since the incense is supposed to
make a person rich, the other kohanim would not allow any kohen to
repeat. That reason does not apply to a sandak (the father chooses)
and as the Gra says, he hasn't seen anyone get rich from being a
Sandak. Secondly, why should there be a difference between brothers
and not brothers. Why can 1 person be sandak for 2 babies who are not
related? If we are going to assur based on the ketores then what is
the difference whether the babies are related or not? The Gra
concludes that the minhag not to have the same person for 2 brothers
is based on the tzava of R' Yehuda Hachassid.

The Aruch Hashulchan writes that the reason based on the ketores is
very forced and doesn't really make sense (like the Gra). He says that
Rabbenu Peretz and others who made a big deal about the Sandak were
big mekubalim and must have had kabbalistic reasons. However, they
didn't want to base halacha on kabbala and therefore were toleh it on
the ketores.

R MSS writes I guess quoting Rav Schwab :


>And therefore we should write about those times. "We should tell ourselves
and our children the good memories of the good people, their unshakeable
faith, their staunch defense of tradition, their life of truth, their
impeccable honesty, their boundless charity and their great reverence for
Torah and Torah sages." It is the parts by which no one gains that we should
gloss over, as "What is gained by pointing out their inadequacies and their
contradictions? We want to be inspired by their example and learn from their
experience...."


I do not understand. Can we not learn from their mistakes so that we do not
repeat them? Isn't that a part of Ikar Viduy "aval anachnu Veavoteinu
Chataneu"?


David Guttmann
 
If you agree that Believing is Knowing, join me in the search for Knowledge
at http://yediah.blogspot.com/ 
 
Ve'izen vechiker (Kohelet 12:9) subscribe to Hakirah at www.hakirah.org 

R' Ben Waxman wrote:
> This should also apply to a male who doesn't say
> kaddish (a brother of a woman who has grown sons
> for example).

I understand that in communities where only one person says kaddish, an
avel for a parent has higher priority than an avel for other relatives. But
you seem to be saying that in some communities, an avel for other relatives
does not say kaddish at all, unless there are no sons to say it.

Is that so? I'm curious which communities are that way.

Akiva Miller
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On Sun, Nov 09, 2008 at 02:21:32AM -0500, Joseph I. Lauer wrote:
:    How does one "learn from their experience" when only part of the
: experience is related?

R' Hutner (Pachad Yitzchaq, Igeros uKesuvim #128) replied to a talmid
seeking help in his milkhemes hayeitzer that a person should turn
to stories of how role models overcame obstacles and failings to be
inspired from, and if we present the gedolim as pristine and nolad
legedulah mibeten, there are people who should aspire for gedulah who
won't realize tht they are in that ballpark.

And of curse, the elephant in the room is that not everyone agrees on
wht a derogatory story is. And so in practice, this editing has managed
to remove all historical evidence of shitos other than current party
line in the publisher's kehillah. It's this issue, not the one under
discussion, that I believe creates the passion in this discussion.

Obvious examples from Meqor Barukh / My Uncle the Netziv include his
wife's citation of a Y-mi that she learned in the Rosh, the Netziv reading
haskalisher newspapers after Fri night dinner, his attitude toward
Zionism, and his begrudgingly allowing Russian language classes in
Volozhin.  To the publisher, they represent things that will make his
readers think less of the Netziv. To the MO community, the ommissions
mean a loss of their sources from the historical record. (Although the
language classes were begrudging, it does refute the myth that there
never were limuei chol in Volozhin.)

I do not wish to take the conversation in that direction, just to point
out that the emotional weight of the conversation is not actually about
our particular point.

Keeping the discussion to the points already raised, even in cases
where any shomer Torah umitzvos would agree the story is negative, R'
Hutner's argument applies. Besides, describing all greatness at though
it were mibeten actually robs the gadol of much of his accomplishment
by making it a gift from the A-lmighty.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
mi...@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Sun, Nov 09, 2008 at 01:05:28PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Interestingly [R Dr] Shnayer Leiman has a fascinating article in Tradition
: (many years ago)
: in which he discusses a Tifereth Yisrael that brings a "story" that
: Moshe Rabbenu : found a magic mirror that showed one's inner personality. This showed that Moshe
: was intrinsically evil and reached his heights by overcoming his
: natutal tendencies.

I recall learning a similar maamar chazal, in which it was a phrenologist
(someone who assesses the character of a person from their head shape
and bumps) who said that MRAH was born to be a highway robber.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> R' Ben Waxman wrote:
>> This should also apply to a male who doesn't say
>> kaddish (a brother of a woman who has grown sons
>> for example).

> I understand that in communities where only one person says kaddish,
> an avel for a parent has higher priority than an avel for other relatives.
> But you seem to be saying that in some communities, an avel for other
> relatives does not say kaddish at all, unless there are no sons to say it.
> 
> Is that so? I'm curious which communities are that way.

I've never heard of another relative saying kaddish, when there are sons
to say it.  Where have you seen such a minhag?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

Because writing one part only (the inspiration) and leaving out the rest is 
a distortion.

Ben
> This is mistaken, as what R' Schwab would consider "inspiration" (talking
> about previous generations of Jews in Germany and mentioning only their
> positive traits - his explicit example) would be considered "distortion" 
> by
> R' D' Schacter.
>
> KT,
> MSS

When my father was four or five years old he went to his grandfather,
the Tzemach Tzedek, on Shabbat Vayeira, and began to cry as he asked:
"Why did God show Himself to our father Avraham - but He does not show  
Himself to us?"
The Tzemach Tzedek answered him: "When a tzadik decides at the age of  
ninety-nine years
that he should be circumcised, he deserves that God appear to him."
 From Likutei Sichot Vol. 1

The Torah tells us that Avraham educated his household to observe and  
maintain the "way of God," but there is no
elaboration as to what exactly this path entails.  What was it that  
Avraham commanded his children and household to do?

The simplest way of understanding this expression is to interpret "the  
way of God" as the attempt to imitate God and to behave
in the way that He appears to us to behave, as our Sages teach in  
several places:

Just as the Almighty is called "merciful" and "compassionate," so  
should you be merciful and compassionate, and be selflessly
giving to all.  Just as the Holy One is called "saintly". so should  
you be saintly.  Just as the Holy One is called "righteous". so should  
you be righteous. (Sifri, Eikev 49)

Just as He clothes the naked. so should you clothe the naked.  The  
Holy One visited the sick. likewise you should visit the sick.
The Holy One comforted mourners. so should you comfort mourners.  The  
Holy One buried the dead. so should you bury the dead. (Sota 14a)

rw
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Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 09, 2008 at 01:05:28PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
> : Interestingly [R Dr] Shnayer Leiman has a fascinating article in
> : Tradition (many years ago) in which he discusses a Tifereth Yisrael
> : that brings a "story" that Moshe Rabbenu : found a magic mirror that
> : showed one's inner personality. This showed that Moshe was
> : intrinsically evil and reached his heights by overcoming his
> : natutal tendencies.

> I recall learning a similar maamar chazal, in which it was a phrenologist
> (someone who assesses the character of a person from their head shape
> and bumps) who said that MRAH was born to be a highway robber.

A maamar chazal that mentions phrenology?  Isn't that strictly a 19th-
century "science"?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

 
 
From: Cantor Wolberg  <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
>>....when his wife was being  threatened to be violated by Pharoah and his 
men,  
Avraham did  virtually nothing except act meekly. Suddenly when it came  
to Lot he  found his boldness....Anyone have a good reasonable  explanation?<<

>>>>>
I have two tentative  explanations, one natural and one "cosmic."

 


Natural:  an army strategist knows that you have to play the hand  you're 
dealt.  In the case of Lot, an army of 318 men -- perhaps allied  with the 
remnants of the defeated five kings' armies -- could reasonably expect  to be able 
to get into the enemy camp and rescue hostages.  Avraham  was also in his own 
country, on his own turf.   In the case of Egypt,  there was no way Avraham 
could have defeated the entire might of the Egyptian  army, so he had to use 
subterfuge and wiles instead of brute force.  One  consideration that he had was 
that if he died, then Sarah would have /no one/ to  protect her, so it was 
definitely in her interest for him to remain alive long  enough to figure out a 
way to save her and get them both out of Egypt.
 
Cosmic:  ma'asei avos siman labanim.  Consciously or  unconsciously, 
Avraham's actions prophetically foreshadowed events that would  occur later in Jewish 
history.  His victory in the war of the four kings vs  the five kings 
foreshadowed Jewish conquest of Eretz Yisrael.  His need to  go "underground" in Egypt 
foreshadowed Yosef in Egypt and his leaving Egypt at  the urging of Pharoah, 
laden with riches, foreshadowed Yetzias Mitzraim.   Sarah's being at the mercy 
of the Egyptians and yet remaining untouched  foreshadowed the purity of the 
women in Egypt who all (except for one sole  exception, Shlomis bas Divri) 
maintained their purity and their family lineage  throughout all the years of 
slavery.  She was also a captive --  foreshadowing Jewish slavery -- and she was 
also in the king's palace --  foreshadowing Moshe being raised in the palace.  
(All the above is  admittedly somewhat speculative, based loosely on  Rashi.)





--Toby  Katz
=============



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<<This should also apply to a male who doesn't say kaddish (a brother
of a woman who has grown sons for example).>>

Yes R. Zilberstein says this explicitly. He feels nobody should be
told of the death of a relative unless they need to say kaddish.
Intrinsically it has nothing to do with male or female.
Seating shiva and kriya are not necessary.
Again I still find it troubling

-- 
Eli Turkel


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