Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 379

Sun, 09 Nov 2008

• 1. Fw: a troubling halacha (Ben Waxman)
• 2. avraham and sarah in Eygpt (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: abraham and sarah in Eygpt (Ari Kahn)
• 4. Re: abraham and sarah in Eygpt (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 5. Another View on How to Portray People of the Past (Joseph I. Lauer)
• 6. Re: How the Torah portrays our great men (T6...@aol.com)
• 7. Question on Avraham's Behavior (Cantor Wolberg)
• 8. How the Torah portrays our great men (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: childbirth (T6...@aol.com)

This should also apply to a male who doesn't say kaddish (a brother of a 
woman who has grown sons for example).
 Ben
>> From: "Eli Turkel" <elitur...@gmail.com>
>
>> In the latest shiur of R. Zilberstein he repeated the halacha against
>> informing women of
>> the death of a close relative (assuming they dont live nearby) since
>> they don't say kaddish.
>> 

<<The above is a gross misrepresentation of the Alshech - who raises
the above question and at the same time points out that Chazal praised
Avraham for this. The Alshech goes on to answer this apparent conflict
and explains why what Avraham did was praiseworthy! He says Avraham
and Sarah's activities helped prepare the way for their descendants to
be able to withstand the depravity in Egypt when they would be exiled
there. >>

Let be clear that R. Ari Kahn also defends the actions of Abraham
based on an Ohr HaChaim

apologies if things were misunderstood or I misinterperted anything
see the entire piece at
http://www.aish.com/torahportion/moray/Acts_of_the_Fathers.asp



BTW he has a reference
See Torah Shelemah, Lech Lecha note 145 where the halachic
implications are considered. (of Abraham risking Sarah)


-- 
Eli Turkel

Quoting the question that Alschech Hakosh asks is a "gross
misrepresentation"? Sorry - you lost me. That is the question that he asks,
he and others offer solutions - perhaps read my entire essay.

Ari

2008/11/8 Daniel Eidensohn <yadmo...@012.net.il>

> R' Eli Turkel wrote:
>
>> >From R. Ari Kahn's Aish site
>>
>> One of the classic commentaries, Rav Moshe Alshech poses the question
>> thus:
>>
>>    How could a man like Abraham come up with a plan which would save
>> his soul from being taken, God forbid, to leave Sarah, who was greater
>> than he in prophecy, to be defiled by heathens, she being a married
>> woman. This is one of the seven Noachide laws, and (Abraham was)
>> someone who observed (even) Eruv Techumin! (12:10-13)
>>
>>
> The above is a gross misrepresentation of the Alshech - who raises the
> above question and at the same time points out that Chazal praised Avraham
> for this. The Alshech goes on to answer this apparent conflict and explains
> why what Avraham did was praiseworthy! He says Avraham and Sarah's
> activities helped prepare the way for their descendants to be able to
> withstand the depravity in Egypt when they would be exiled there.
>
> ????? ?????? ?"? - ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? - ??? ?? ???? ?-??
> ??? ???? ???? ??, ??? ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??', ?? ??
> ??? ??????? ????? ????, ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ?? ??? ??
> ??????? ??? ?????, ???? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????
> ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??'. ???? ????"? ?"? (?????? ?? ?) ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???
> ???? ??????, ?? ??????? ?"? (???? ???? ?????? ??? ??) ????? ?????? ?? ????,
> ???? ?? ???? ??? ???????. ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???, ????? ??? ?????? ???
> ?????? ???? ???? ?????, ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???????, ????? ???? ????
> ??????? ???? ????? ???, ???? ???? ???? ??? ??, ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?????
> ???????:
>
>
> ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???' ???? ???? ?? ?????? ??' ????? ????? ??
> ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????, ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????.
> ??? ?? ?? ???? ????"? ?????? ?? ???, ?? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?"? (???? ????
> ?????? ??) ???? ????????. ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ?' ??? ??????, ??????
> ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??' ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????.
>
>
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R' Ari Kahn wrote:
> Quoting the question that Alschech Hakosh asks is a "gross 
> misrepresentation"? Sorry - you lost me. That is the question that he 
> asks, he and others offer solutions - perhaps read my entire essay.
The quote of the Alshech's question which you offered in your essay is 
taken out of context. You wrote the following in your essay:

"One of the classic commentaries, Rav Moshe Alshech poses the question thus:

    How could a man like Abraham come up with a plan which would save
    his soul from being taken, God forbid, to leave Sarah, who was
    greater than he in prophecy, to be defiled by heathens, she being a
    married woman. This is one of the seven Noachide laws, and (Abraham
    was) someone who observed (even) Eruv Techumin! (12:10-13)

The Alshech Hakadosh expresses shock and moral outrage at Abraham's 
behavior (and, if I am not mistaken, his words contain a degree of 
sarcasm and cynicism as well). How can a spiritual giant like Abraham, a 
man who uniquely and alone discerned the Divine imperative, a man who 
reportedly adhered to the entire Torah, including halachic minutia, be 
guilty of such morally questionable behavior? To save his own skin, he 
was willing to have his wife consort with the enemy."

=====================================
I read your entire essay and my statement stands. Let me offer a full 
translation of the Alshech's question rather than your partial citation:

        *Alshech(Bereishis 12:10-13): *It is appropriate at this point
        to notice that despite G?d?s promises that were made concerning
        Avraham?s leaving his homeland to go to Israel?Avraham when
        faced with the material problem of parnasa immediately descended
        into Egypt because of the famine and did not rely on G?d?s help.
        This is especially troubling since G?d obviously took care of
        those goyim that remained in Israel. Wouldn?t He surely have
        sustained Avraham? What happened to the promises which G?d had
        given? The Ramban writes that because of this sin the decendants
        of Avraham were exiled in Egypt. **_*H**owever in contrast to
        this negative assessment of Avraham?s behavior we see that our
        Sages (Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezar 26) view Avraham?s behavior as
        meritorious. They count it as one of the 10 tests that Avraham
        passed.*_ **An additional question which bothers me is how was
        it possible  that a great man like Avraham would do such actions
        which could cause death. How could he in response to the threat
        against his life devise a plan which would leave Sarah - who was
        greater than he in prophesy -  in a situation where she was
        exposed to sexual attack. This is especially troubling since she
        was a married woman and this was a violation of one of the seven
        mitzvos of Noach. How could he do such a thing when he observed
        even the commandment of eruv tavshilin? This is more bitter than
        death when he says to her that she should present herself as his
        sister in order that it should save his life ?and she should end
        up in sexual relations with these uncircumcised people. Who can
        hear such a thing and not have it grate against one?s ears. The
        Ramban also counts this as a sin of Avraham. _***However in
        contrast Chazal considers this to be praiseworthy (Pirkei
        DeRabbi Eleazer 26) and included in his Tests.** "*_

By deleting the fact that the Alshech is contrasting the rational human 
response to a literal reading of these Torah verses with the fact that 
Chazal view these events as positive - the impression is created that 
"The Alshech Hakadosh expresses shock and moral outrage at Abraham's 
behavior (and, if I am not mistaken, his words contain a degree of 
sarcasm and cynicism as well)." The fact is that the Alshech - in his 
question is acknowledging from the start that the "apparent" problem can 
not be taken at face value because it is refuted by the statements of 
Chazal. His question is not how Avraham could do these terrible things 
but rather how do we reconcile that which appears to be terrible with 
the fact that Chazal praise Avraham for these deeds. By deleting the 
Alshech's citation of the positive view of Chazal - a great 
misrepresentation of the concern of the Alshech is created.

Daniel Eidensohn




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    Samuel Svarc ends his note by writing in part: "And therefore we should
write about those times. **** It is the parts by which no one gains that we
should gloss over, as [Rav Schwab wrote] 'What is gained by pointing out
their inadequacies and their contradictions? We want to be inspired by their
example and learn from their experience....'" [Bracketed words added.]
    How does one "learn from their experience" when only part of the
experience is related?
    Joseph I. Lauer 

 
 
From: "Eli Turkel" _eliturkel@gmail.com_ (mailto:elitur...@gmail.com) 

>>I  recall someone
saying that had Esau been treated properly he could have  turned out a
good "Jew" who would support the tzaddik  Yaakov<<





>>>>
Hirsch says it.  He says that instead of individualizing his  education to 
suit the nature of each son,  Yitzchak gave both  sons the same type of 
education, but it wasn't appropriate to Esav, who had ADD  and needed to be outside 
running around more.  (Of course I have taken some  liberties in paraphrasing 
what he said.....)

 


--Toby  Katz
=============



**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other 
Holiday needs. Search Now. 
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I came upon the following question someone recently asked. I never  
thought of it but I'd be interested if anyone else did. Also, there is  
some converse parallel to Noah and Avraham.

Why is it that when Avraham was with his wife and she was being taken  
away from him by Pharoah he sad idly by and did not fight for her.  
Later on when Lot (who was somewhat of a traitor by leaving him and  
going to Sedom) was captured in the war with the 4 kings against the 5  
kings, Avraham ran with Eliezer to save him. In the former case, when  
his wife was being threatened to be violated by Pharoah and his men,  
Avraham did virtually nothing except act meekly. Suddenly when it came  
to Lot he found his boldness. Anyone else bothered by our fathers  
actions here. Anyone have a good reasonable explanation?

ri
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In a continuation of my previous remarks I think there are numerous places
in Tanakh where the commentaries have faulted our great men.
As stressed many times this is not to say they are not great men/women
but only to point out that they too struggled

Interestingly Shnayer Leiman has a fascinating article in Tradition
(many years ago)
in which he discusses a Tifereth Yisrael that brings a "story" that
Moshe Rabbenu
found a magic mirror that showed one's inner personality. This showed that Moshe
was intrinsically evil and reached his heights by overcoming his
natutal tendencies.
The Tifereth Ysirael praises this story. He was attacked for this by
several other
gedolim who objected to the idea that Moshe Rabbenu was anything other then
perfect from birth.
Shnayer also shows that this story has nonJewish origins.
Nevertheless these two approaches of a perfect tzaddik one who works on himself
is argued over the generations
RYBS claims that in fact this is the basis of the machloket whether
Avraham recognized
his creator at the age of 40 (various versions) - Rambam - and so struggled for
many years or else at the age of 3 - Raavad - and so from infancy knew
about G-d.
Others try and combine the two shitot.

Anyway back to Tanach
Besides the story of Avraham going to Egypt which we have discussed there is the
story of Sarah's treatment of Hagar which both the Ramban and Radak
seem to condemn.
There is also the question of the sending away of Ketura's children
instead of somehow
handling them.
In is interesting that Avraham could convert all these people from
Haran but had trouble with
7 of his 8 children that needed to be sent away although Ishmael seems
to have returned
at some stage.
I previously quoted RSRH (thank you Toby) for Isaac and Rivkah not
dealing properly with
the behavior of Esau and the Malbim who seems to say that Isaac and Rivkah were
not properly communicating with each other
All of this without starting on the relationship of Yosef to his brothers.

As many have noted the first brothers in Chumash to have gotten along together
are Moshe and Aharon in sefer shemot

-- 
Eli Turkel

 
 
From: "Chana Luntz" _Ch...@kolsassoon.org.uk_ 
(mailto:Ch...@kolsassoon.org.uk) 



[Quoting  RMF's teshuva:]

> because childbirth in its natural time in the  natural way is not 
> considered a danger at all. Since G-d created the  world to be fruitful 
> and multiply, there is no question that he created  it that it should 
> be for beracha and not for danger. Furthermore He  commanded the 
> obligation to have children. It is not logical that there  would be a 
> command to place one's self in danger in order to fulfil the  mitzva of 
> having children. .... We 
> must conclude that  there is absolutely no danger in childbirth at all. 
> That mean that G-d  promised that there would never be danger in 
>  childbirth.

>>That seems pretty clear cut and unequivocal.   The logic makes sense.  The
only problem is a) the statistics don't bear  him out, as RTK brings (as well
as RET's anecdotal references to righteous  women); and b) the halacha states
flatly that this is not the case, and that  a woman in childbirth is to be
considered a chola sheyesh bo sakana and  shabbas must be violated. <<
 
 
>>>>
I would like to suggest a possible [partial]  reconciliation of RMF's 
problematic teshuva with reality.  And that is,  /normal/ childbirth is not dangerous 
in and of itself.  If nothing goes  wrong -- and the vast majority of times, 
nothing does go wrong -- then  childbirth is not intrinsically dangerous.  In 
the countries with the worst  statistics (mentioned in that Time article I 
referenced a few days ago),  transportation is so bad and the countries are so 
messed up that a third of all  women give birth with /no/ assistance, not even a 
midwife, and it is among those  women that you find the highest mortality 
rates.  The Jewish women in Egypt  were /unusual/ in not requiring the assistance 
of midwives.  (Some  meforshim explain "chayos heima" as meaning that they 
gave birth like animals,  quickly and easily.)  But a normal birth /with/ the 
help of a midwife is  usually not dangerous.  What you might compare it to is 
driving a car -- a  normal everyday activity that has a certain level of risk 
associated with it,  but a risk that we consider so "normal" that nobody would 
say, "Oy, are you  out of your mind, doing something so risky, driving a car?!" 
 We would  still have to take RMF's words "no danger in childbirth at all" as 
guzma,  rhetorical, not exactly literal but still normative.  By normative I 
mean,  a Jew is generally not allowed to put his life at risk, but getting  
pregnant is a normal, healthy thing to do and not to be thought of as a  
suicidal career choice.  The failure to use contraceptives is not the  equivalent of 
flying on a trapeze without a net. 



--Toby  Katz
=============




**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other 
Holiday needs. Search Now. 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)
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