Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 369

Thu, 30 Oct 2008

• 1. Re: Dirty diapers and brachos (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Shofar Pitch (Michael Kopinsky)
• 3. Re: Shofar Pitch (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Righteous Gentile is Equal to the Kohein Godol (Meir Kahn)
• 5. Re: Kiddush in Shul - Friday night (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: Kiddush in Shul - Friday night (T6...@aol.com)
• 7. Re: Hypocrisy in halakhah (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Righteous Gentile is Equal to the Kohein Godol (Micha Berger)
• 9. You can't make this stuff up! (Micha Berger)
• 10. Article in Jewish Action by Ari Zivotosky (Esther and Aryeh Frimer)
• 11. Re: You can't make this stuff up! (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 12. Re: Hypocrisy in halakhah (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: Hypocrisy in halakhah (kennethgmil...@juno.com)

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 04:25:17PM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: 1- The dirty diaper of a fully nursed baby smells unpleasantly.  It's just
: a different unpleasant smell.
: I don't know what the halacha is but as to the  facts -- I totally disagree.  
: Clover smells very good to me...

So? TO me too. Doesn't mean diapers have to.

I also don't see any reason why the baby's smell as judged by its own
mother is relevant. If we go by the age most babies switch then it would
seem we're using more objective measures.

(Also, I couldn't get Google to show anyone who agreed with your
assessment of diaper smells. But as I don't think its relevant, I'm not
sure it's worth arguing this bit of mezi'us. I also disagree about a
diaper containing urine; it smells too.)

As for RMK's question, it takes a week or so, but the smell eventually
does return to the old one when the diet is returned to nursing only. But
again, the KSA gives this as an age measure for all babies, not the
measure for a particular baby's development or a means of describing
how odiferous the diaper is.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
mi...@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 1:04pm EDT, R Michael Kopinsky wrote to
> Areivim:
> : On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:25am, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> :> A question for Avodah -- is the sound supposed to be level, or are
> :> teqi'os and shevarim supposed to go up in pitch at the end?
>
> : Or, in the case of shevarim, should they go up in pitch in the middle and
> : back down at the end, as the baal tekiah in KBY (R' Zechariah Frankel)
> does?
>
> This is a Brisker thing. The problem is a machloqes Rashi and Tosafos
> over the definition of a shevarim.
>


I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.  You seem to be talking
about changing the number of kolos, or the length of the kolos.  RZF does
not change those, but only the pitch during the kol - he starts with the low
note, goes to the harmonic, and goes back to the low note.

In RZF's case, I don't think it's a brisker thing.  The way I heard it, it's
just that he thinks that sounds more like a shever or crying than straight
notes without the pitch modulation.

KT,
Michael
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On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 04:50:51PM -0400, Michael Kopinsky wrote:
: I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.  You seem to be talking
: about changing the number of kolos, or the length of the kolos.  RZF does
: not change those, but only the pitch during the kol - he starts with the low
: note, goes to the harmonic, and goes back to the low note.

: In RZF's case, I don't think it's a brisker thing.  The way I heard it, it's
: just that he thinks that sounds more like a shever or crying than straight
: notes without the pitch modulation.

Then we could be talking about different things. The Brisker thing is
one kol that goes up at the end, followed with almost no break by a
single beat of a kol at the original pitch. So it can sound like
down-up-down.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org        All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org   to be as human as possible while we are here.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - unknown MD, while a Nazi prisoner

How does this position of RSRH comport with "Rotzah HKBH Lzakos es yisroel
Lfichach hirbah l'hem Torah Umitzvos"?
If a non Jew can get the same Schar for performing 7 mitzvos as a Jew can
for 613, what is the zchus?

(It would seem to  me to be in conflict with  many other statements of
Chazal and Rishonim as well.)

(I'm not sure if this is more appropriate for Avodah or Areivim so I 'm
sending it to both)

Thanks,

Meir Kahn
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> The way I heard it told, the point was to provide qiddush for those 
> living in the Hakhnasis Orchim, the poorhouse, or in some areas, the 
> back of the shul.  

Question: Do we know when the practice originated and/or whether a
reason was given at the time?
KT
Joel Rich    
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In a message dated 10/30/2008, s...@sba2.com writes:

>>In the early days (1950s), the Minhag in our Shul was for the  Chazan to 
make
Kiddush in Shul after Maariv - Friday night.
This minhag  was abandoned quite a long time ago. No idea why.

Our so-called  'sister'-shul in Sydney - which has long since lost its
Hungarian-type  families and is mainly made up of BTs and neo-Litvaks etc
(and not too many  of those either), still has this Minhag.<<



>>>>
From what I've read, poor people and travelers  used to sleep (and often, 
eat) in the shul and that's why they made kiddush in  shul.  Nobody sleeps in 
shul anymore, everybody is going someplace else for  the meal and there is no 
need to make kiddush in shul. Some shuls retain  the custom anyway.  New BTs or 
becoming-BTs might need to hear kiddush  in shul because they don't know how to 
make kiddush themselves.
 


--Toby  Katz
=============



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On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 11:17:48PM +0200, Michael Makovi wrote:
: Similarly, Rabbi Dr. David Berger in an essay on the Egalitarian
: Ethos, suggests that at the Christian Disputations, we realized that
: even though the Christians were certainly racist, we were not entirely
: innocent of that charge ourselves. We realized we had to look at our
: own texts in their eyes, and ask ourselves how we'd feel had their
: laws said the equivalent of what ours say...

:                We cannot simply overturn the halakhah, but we can
: creatively tweak it to suite our interests according to our own
: understanding of the Torah's ethos....

The phrase "our understanding of the Torah's ethos" isn't the same thing
as claims that it was in response to not liking the racism we saw in the
mirror of that expressed against us. You're again teetering very close
to Historical School.

I have a very strong feeling you misunderstood RDB, as he is quite
conservative WRT halakhah. I shall be"H ask him.

You do what halakhah tells you to do. If it seems unfair, such as the
patient who hopes and tries to receive an organ from a pool to which
one is not permitted to donate (assuming that is halakhah, CYLOR), then
it's a matter of learning how one's instincts are wrong. Not simply ch"v
rewriting din in response to prevailing moral zeitgeist.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced, with a decision, ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 02:19:29PM -0400, Meir Kahn wrote:
: How does this position of RSRH comport with "Rotzah HKBH Lzakos es yisroel
: Lfichach hirbah l'hem Torah Umitzvos"?
: If a non Jew can get the same Schar for performing 7 mitzvos as a Jew can
: for 613, what is the zchus?

It takes more work to get to the same point.

I think it's most accurate to say that Jews play a game with higher
stakes. A well-intended Jew is more likely to get further, because he
will have more opportunity to collect zekhuyos.

This seems to me to be a generalized form of the Rambam's peshat in that
mishnah. He holds that olam haba is a product of yedi'ah, which in turn
can come as a single epiphany -- yeish mi sheqoneh olamo besha'ah achas.
More mitzvos means, to the Rambam, more opportunities for that epiphany;
that's the zekhus.

More of us see the point of mitzvos in terms of ethical self-development
or of emotional deveiqus. And so I took the idea and broadened it to
apply to those derakhim

However, we also have more opportunities for cheit than do nakhriim,
which is why geirus isn't "zakhin le'adam shelo befanav". It's only
the well intended person who is better off.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

So, On Oct 29, a group of notzrim looking to pray for financial success
went to the famous statue at Bowling Green (not far from Wall Street,
and even closer to US Agudah and OU offices) to pray. A little confused
on their seifer shemos and Melakhim alef...

To quote, "We are going to intercede at the site of the statue of the
bull on Wall Street to ask God to begin a shift from the bull and bear
markets to what we feel will be the 'Lion's Market,' or God's
control over the economic systems."

The picture drives home the sheer absurdity:
<http://wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/bullprayer2.jpg>
(Also useful if you didn't yet realize what it's a statue of...)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

The Article by R. Dr. Ari Zivotofsky in Jewish Action Fall 2000/5761 is
hard to find  because it is embedded at the end of an Article by R.
Slifkin: http://www.ou.org
/publications/ja/5761fall/ZOO.PDF

Aryeh Frimer

  Giraffe is kosher? Old news. R' Ari Zivotofsky wrote an article on this
  in Jewish Action several years back. I couldn't find the original on the
  OU website, but a copy can be read at http://www.kashrut.com/ar
  ticles/giraffe/

  Akiva Miller
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On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:34:39 -0400
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> So, On Oct 29, a group of notzrim looking to pray for financial success
> went to the famous statue at Bowling Green (not far from Wall Street,
> and even closer to US Agudah and OU offices) to pray. A little confused
> on their seifer shemos and Melakhim alef...

Perhaps they are really praying to God (or their deity, if it's
ontologically different from ours), and merely asking the statue to
intercede for them, or forward their prayers to the deity.  I have
occasionally heard similar justifications for various sorts of prayers
to entities other than God Himself by members of a sister religion.

> To quote, "We are going to intercede at the site of the statue of the
> bull on Wall Street to ask God to begin a shift from the bull and bear
> markets to what we feel will be the 'Lion's Market,' or God's
> control over the economic systems."

So they say so explicitly; they are not imputing godhood to the statue
itself.

> Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 11:17:48PM +0200, Michael Makovi wrote:
: Similarly, Rabbi Dr. David Berger in an essay on the Egalitarian
: Ethos, suggests that at the Christian Disputations, we realized that
: even though the Christians were certainly racist, we were not entirely
: innocent of that charge ourselves. We realized we had to look at our
: own texts in their eyes, and ask ourselves how we'd feel had their
: laws said the equivalent of what ours say...

:                We cannot simply overturn the halakhah, but we can
: creatively tweak it to suite our interests according to our own
: understanding of the Torah's ethos....

The phrase "our understanding of the Torah's ethos" isn't the same thing
as claims that it was in response to not liking the racism we saw in the
mirror of that expressed against us. You're again teetering very close
to Historical School.

I have a very strong feeling you misunderstood RDB, as he is quite
conservative WRT halakhah. I shall be"H ask him.

You do what halakhah tells you to do. If it seems unfair, such as the
patient who hopes and tries to receive an organ from a pool to which one
is not permitted to donate (assuming that is halakhah, CYLOR), then it's
a matter of learning how one's instincts are wrong. Not simply ch"v
rewriting din in response to prevailing moral zeitgeist.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
==========================================
I think we've been down this road a number of times before. The
statement "You do what halakhah tells you to do" is true but not
complete since a posek has to decide what the halacha is and there is
not an algorithm that gives one and only one answer irrespective of who
is asked to give the psak.  In fact it is the "instincts" (lev shel
torah etc.) that we rely on.  

Question: What was the driving force behind the takkana of rabbeinu
gershom on monogamy?

KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

R' Zev Sero wrote:
> "Hanosen teshua lamlachim" was printed in the siddur, and
> it was said in the big city shuls where the KYRH's spies
> might be listening, but in the small shuls and shtiblach
> it was omitted.

Is this your guess, or someone else's guess, or were you told this by people who were actually there?

This is a good example of something which is probably impossible to prove
or disprove, as no one would have written such things down. But if it is
indeed true, it would explain why some communities don't say it. It always
seemed to me a natural and important thing to say. (Didn't we have a thread
on this a few months ago?) But if it is true that no one ever said it until
the gov't wanted it, then I would understand why some communities have
chosen to drop it.

(BTW: What does KYRH stand for? My guess is that the K is Kaiser, but I'm clueless on the rest.)

Akiva Millrt
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