Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 368

Thu, 30 Oct 2008

• 1. Re: Hypocrisy in halakhah (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Free Will vs. Physics (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 3. Curdling of Non-Kosher Milk (Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer)
• 4. Re: Giraffe is Kosher, Confirmed (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. More on Righteous Gentile is Equal to the Kohein Godol (Yitzchok Levine)
• 6. Kiddush in Shul - Friday night (SBA)
• 7. Re: Kiddush in Shul - Friday night (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Kiddush in Shul - Friday night (Micha Berger)
• 9. Shofar Pitch (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Shofar Pitch (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Kiddush in Shul - Friday night (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Dirty diapers and brachos (T6...@aol.com)
• 13. Re: Dirty diapers and brachos (T6...@aol.com)

Sorry, there's a major fallacy here.  When it comes to fending off
gezerot, we tell the outside world whatever will be effective in order
to stave them off.  But that's entirely klapei chutz; it doesn't change
the metzius, and it doesn't change the halacha.  We do not and cannot
let our own understanding of Torah be changed by what the PR people find
it expedient to tell the world.

The fact is that we are *not* the same as others, and therefore what
we think of their laws has nothing to do with the validity of our laws.
The gemara already points to these examples, and says yes, that's how
it is.  We have one standard for them and another for ourselves, and
that is right and proper; explaining it to them is another matter, and
may call for finesse.

For instance: during the times of the blood libels, how many times did
we point out that we don't even eat blood in an egg, and argue that al
achat kamah vechamah we couldn't possibly be putting human blood in our
baked goods.  Now imagine that the PR person making that argument comes
home that evening and cuts his finger while cooking, and some blood gets
into the food; much more than 1/60, but less than 1/2.  Does he have to
throw it out, just because that's what he led the court to believe was
the halacha?  (Doing so might be prudent, if there's a chance that the
court might learn of the deception, but that's a different matter.)

Then we have the siddurim and sefarim that used to be printed in Russia
with all sorts of changes, to please the censor.  They omitted "sheheim
mishtachavim...", inserted "bashamayim" into "ein lanu melech ela ata",
inserted disclaimers into various halachos that "of course this only
applied in the olden days, and not under the glorious KYRH", etc.
Did any of that change what was actually done?  Of course not.  Everyone
knew that the disclaimers were for the censors, and the tefilos and
halachos remained the same.  "Hanosen teshua lamlachim" was printed in
the siddur, and it was said in the big city shuls where the KYRH's spies
might be listening, but in the small shuls and shtiblach it was omitted.

As for the definition of citizenship, Napoleon's emancipation of the
Jews came with a terrible price, that of giving up our national identity
and defining ourselves as "Frenchmen of the Mosaic faith".  I would have
no problem whatsoever if Ireland, for instance, defined itself as a
Catholic nation and therefore said non-Catholics could not be citizens.
I'm pretty sure the Vatican already does so.  Or if Pakistan made Islam
a requirement for citizenship.  Throughout the years we were not citizens
of our host countries, and we never aspired for citizenship.  We were
always an "am levadad yishkon".  The USA is of course different because
diversity of religion and nationality is an essential part of its
historical identity.  To a lesser extent this is true also of other
"immigrant nations".  But the old European nations still have the
concept of nationality as distinct from citizenship, and in the national
sense a Jew is not a Frenchman or a German or a Slovak.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

"Hakol tzafui, v'har'shus n'suna - All is foreseen, yet free choice *is* given." - Avos 3:15

We usually understand this in terms of not being bound by G-d's advance
knowledge of the choice we are yet to make. But I thought of another
possible layer of meaning:

According to determinism, I can know the future *without* having a time
machine, and *without* being G-d. All I need to know (according to
determinism) is the current state of everything (or even a past state of
everything). From that, one can calculate and figure out exactly what will
happen next, and what will happen after that, and so on, ad infinitum.

If we include this sort of foreknowlege in the mishna's "hakol tzafui",
then we will have a new translation: "The universe *is* deterministic, yet
free choice *is* given."

And that's really not very different from "hakol b'ydei Shamayim, chutz m'yiras Shamayim".

Akiva Miller
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From: "David Roth" <dr...@pobox.com>

Can anyone provide a little more information about this milk clotting
criterion and the source for its use?

There will be an article with scientific data on the subject in a
forthcoming issue of Bar Ilan's Torah UMadda Journal BD"D. Indeed, as Chazal
indicate, the milk of non-kosher animals does not curdle forming cheese
(even if some kosher milk is added), while that of Kosher animals including
giraffes does. Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivitofsky should be able to comment further.

Aryeh

--------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: Fri...@mail.biu.ac.il

Giraffe is kosher? Old news. R' Ari Zivotofsky wrote an article on this in
Jewish Action several years back. I couldn't find the original on the OU
website, but a copy can be read at http://www.kashrut.com/arti
cles/giraffe/

Akiva Miller
_____________________________________________________________
Compete with the big boys.  Click here to find products to benefit your business.
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A couple of people have written to me saying that 
one has to keep in mind that the statement by 
RSRH "that a non-Jew who observes the laws given 
to him by God is an equal of the High Priest" was 
written in an essay that was designed to prevent 
the banning of the Talmud, and hence to be read 
by Russian government officials. The implication 
is that Rav Hirsch wrote this under "extenuating 
circumstances." However, this is not the case. 
The following is from the new translation of the 
Hirsch Chumash, Vayikra, 18, 5.  I am sure that 
RSRH did not expect Russian officials to read his commentary on the Chumash.

I have posted the RSRH's entire commentary on 
this posuk at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/gentile_vayikra_18_5.pdf

Even a non-Jew who keeps God?s Law is the equal of the High Priest;
for it says: ?? which a man shall do and live thereby.? Similarly, it says
(Shemuel II, 7:19): ?This is the teaching for man? ? and does not say
?for Priests, Levites, and Israelites.? Similarly, it does not say ?Open the
gates, that Priests, Levites, and Israelites may enter? but: ?? that a
righteous people may enter? (Yeshayahu 26:2). Similarly, it does not say
?This is the gateway to God; Priests, Levites, and Israelites shall enter
through it,? but: ?? the righteous shall enter through it? (Tehillim
118:20). Similarly, it does not say ?Exult, you 
Priests, Levites and Israelites,?
but: ?Exult, you righteous, in God? (ibid. 33:1). Similarly, it does
not say ?Do good, O God, to the Priests, Levites and Israelites,? but:
?? to those who are good? (ibid. 125:4). It follows that even a non-Jew
who fulfills God?s Law is the equal of the High Priest.

Yitzchok Levine 
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In the early days (1950s), the Minhag in our Shul was for the Chazan to make
Kiddush in Shul after Maariv - Friday night.
This minhag was abandoned quite a long time ago. No idea why.

Our so-called 'sister'-shul in Sydney - which has long since lost its
Hungarian-type families and is mainly made up of BTs and neo-Litvaks etc
(and not too many of those either), still has this Minhag.

[I also saw it done in one of the "mainstream- O" (belaaz) shuls, that I
once davvened in when visiting Sydney. The lay-'Chazan' who made the
Kiddush, had his car keys jangling on the belt holding up his denim jeans.

Which brings me back to my question if a Mechalel Shabbos may drink wine
that he touched...?]

I have no idea how widespread this Kiddush Minhag is [or was in pre-War
Europe].

I have a few questions re the 'procedures' and would appreciate hearing on-
or off-list from those who practice or know about these matters.

SBA

SBA wrote:
> In the early days (1950s), the Minhag in our Shul was for the Chazan to make
> Kiddush in Shul after Maariv - Friday night.
> This minhag was abandoned quite a long time ago. No idea why.

My Nusach-Ashkenaz shul also dropped this minhag more than 20 years ago
(how much more than that, I have no idea).  But it is SOP in NA shuls,
including Anglo-Jewish ("United Synagogue style") shuls.


> [I also saw it done in one of the "mainstream- O" (belaaz) shuls, that I
> once davvened in when visiting Sydney.


> The lay-'Chazan' who made the Kiddush, had his car keys jangling on the
> belt holding up his denim jeans.

He may simply not have removed them from the ring with his house keys.
Was it inside the eruv?  AIUI the Sydney eruv is kosher lechol hade'ot.


> Which brings me back to my question if a Mechalel Shabbos may drink wine
> that he touched...?]

All grape juice is mevushal, at least according to most definitions.
And in that sort of shul you can be sure it was grape juice.


> I have a few questions re the 'procedures' and would appreciate hearing
> on-or off-list from those who practice or know about these matters.

Any specific questions?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:59:25PM +1100, SBA wrote:
: In the early days (1950s), the Minhag in our Shul was for the Chazan to make
: Kiddush in Shul after Maariv - Friday night.
: This minhag was abandoned quite a long time ago. No idea why.

Minhag midorei doros, part of the nusach hatefillah in Ashkanaz, and
non-trivial to know how one is allowed to (I assume RRW would say in-
hachi-nami, it isn't), never mind /why/ they did.

The way I heard it told, the point was to provide qiddush for those living
in the Hakhnasis Orchim, the poorhouse, or in some areas, the back of the
shul. The Litvisher yeshivos noted they didn't have people who couldn't
have qiddush at home, and any lengthening of maariv was coming out of
learning time, so they dropped it. As yeshiva orientation broadened,
the minhag wained.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 1:04pm EDT, R Michael Kopinsky wrote to
Areivim:
: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:25am, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
:> A question for Avodah -- is the sound supposed to be level, or are
:> teqi'os and shevarim supposed to go up in pitch at the end?

: Or, in the case of shevarim, should they go up in pitch in the middle and
: back down at the end, as the baal tekiah in KBY (R' Zechariah Frankel) does?

This is a Brisker thing. The problem is a machloqes Rashi and Tosafos
over the definition of a shevarim.

Rashi holds that each sound of the shevarim must be less than 3 beats,
as then it would qualify as a teqi'ah.

Tosafos hold, as most of us practice, that the full three sounds should
be as long as a teru'ah, and thus there must be 3 beats per sound.

It was suggested to R Chaim (one version of the story puts the suggestion
in RYBS's mouth, but RARR remembers RYBS telling the story in third
person) that if one blew 5 sounds, 2 beats - 1 beat - 2 - 1 - 2, one could
be yotzei both. If you blow a single 2 beat sound that has time to go up
at the end, and let it run into the one beat, such that 2+1 - 2+1 - 2+1,
one manages to address R' Chaim's concern AND be somewhat closer to
universal norm.

I'm not thrilled with this innovation. The whole point of blowing
shevarim, teru'ah, and shevarim-teru'ah is so that BY all blow the shofar
identically. By creating new minhagim, this unity of G-d's fanfare is
again broken, for the first time since at least bayis sheini.

Any thoughts on this or my original question (see quote, above) would be
appreciated.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

I just posted:
: I'm not thrilled with this innovation. The whole point of blowing
: shevarim, teru'ah, and shevarim-teru'ah is so that BY all blow the shofar
: identically. By creating new minhagim, this unity of G-d's fanfare is
: again broken, for the first time since at least bayis sheini.

I have to correct this exageration. Shevarim teru'ah binshimah achas
(Ramban, Ritva) vs bishtei neshimos (Rashi, Tosafos), or only the time
for it to have been shetei neshimos (CI's peshat in the above) also
created a small (in terms of accoustical impact) amout of diversity.

Also, the innovation isn't as big as I thought. Looking at the Ramban,
one fints that a shever is itself a broken sound. So there was a maqor
before R' Chaim. (I think original credit for my source list goes to
RMBluke's blog.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:59:25PM +1100, SBA wrote:

>> This minhag was abandoned quite a long time ago. No idea why.

> Minhag midorei doros, part of the nusach hatefillah in Ashkanaz, and
> non-trivial to know how one is allowed to (I assume RRW would say in-
> hachi-nami, it isn't), never mind /why/ they did.

The trouble is that it's also non-trivial to know how one is allowed
to say this kiddush, since nobody is yotze with it.

 
> The way I heard it told, the point was to provide qiddush for those
> living in the Hakhnasis Orchim, the poorhouse, or in some areas, the
> back of the shul. The Litvisher yeshivos noted they didn't have people
> who couldn't have qiddush at home, and any lengthening of maariv was
> coming out of learning time, so they dropped it.

This is in SA OC 269.  The SA recommends that the minhag be discontinued,
and reports that it is not done in EY, but not surprisingly it continued
in Ashkenaz.

Also see SA Harav 343:6 who explains how we can give the wine to ketanim,
before they have been yotze kiddush.  In part, his heter rests on the
fact that even in his day there were sometimes people spending shabbos
in the shul or an attached building, who were yotze with this kiddush,
and thus the ketanim didn't get the wine *every* week.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

 
 
In a message dated 10/30/2008, mi...@aishdas.org writes:

1->> The dirty diaper of a fully nursed baby smells unpleasantly.  It's just
a different unpleasant smell.<<



>>>>
I don't know what the halacha is but as to the  facts -- I totally disagree.  
Clover smells very good to me.  BTW  certain verbs are considered "state of 
being" verbs -- like is, smells, tastes,  feels -- and take adjectives, not 
adverts.  Thus, she is pretty, he smells  unpleasant, the food tastes sweet, 
velvet feels  soft. Confusingly, some of the same verbs can also be regular  
action verbs, in which case they do take adverbs.  Thus, for example, a  child 
might taste her food carefully, or a doctor might feel a lump  expertly, or a 
mother might smell her baby anxiously.  Look to see if the  verb takes an object, 
in which case you do want an adverb.  If OTOH  the verb takes no object, then 
you need an adjective to describe the subject of  the verb.  ("The food tastes 
good" -- no object -- the adjective "good"  modifies the subject of the verb, 
the food.)  To repeat, breast-fed babies'  waste smells good.  Especially to 
their mothers.  Like Esav's  clothes smelled to his mother Rivka.   Like Gan 
Eden.
 


--Toby  Katz
=============



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In a message dated 10/30/2008, mkopin...@gmail.com writes:

What if  the baby starts having formula, but then reverts to having 
breastmilk again?  Does his tzoah go back to its original smell?

What about question #2?  Does the baby's mei raglayim change when he starts 
eating/drinking things  other than breast milk?

KT,
Michael



>>>>
1. Does his waste go back to smelling good if he  goes back to mother's milk? 
 Yes.
2. Urine -- I don't remember.  It's been a long time since I had  babies in 
diapers.  But modern disposable diapers have something in  them (an inner 
layer, not on the baby's skin) that turns to gel when it  gets wet, which helps to 
prevent leaks and also prevents any odor. Unless you  let the baby go a /very/ 
long time between diaper changes, there will not  be any odor when he wets 
his diaper, regardless of what he's eating.
 

--Toby  Katz
=============



**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel.  Check out Today's Hot 
5 Travel Deals! 
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redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
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