Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 362

Thu, 23 Oct 2008

• 1. Re: Free Will vs. Physics (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 2. Re: Free Will vs. Physics (Saul Mashbaum)
• 3. Re: Is the term "He died before his time" correct? (Saul Mashbaum)
• 4. Re: rain on succot (T6...@aol.com)
• 5. Re: rain on Succot (Saul Mashbaum)
• 6. Bereshis From Aleph to Sav (Cantor Wolberg)
• 7. FW: Sukkah different to Esrog (Meir Rabi)
• 8. Good Advice (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: rain on succot (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Bereshis From Aleph to Sav (Micha Berger)
• 11. Sukkah in the BHMK (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: FW: Sukkah different to Esrog (Micha Berger)

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Let's posit some internal cause as a third possibility.
> The person can be blamed for stealing the diamond because
> his decision was caused by some factor, a taavah for
> wealth (or women, or...) not just external, or initial
> causes, nor random causelessness. But then we must ask
> where that taavah comes from. ...
> I think this is the question RAM is asking, in a very
> different form. Not a question about the decision itself,
> but about where the shift occurs.
>   From: a conflict of desires/goals the baby was either
>   wired for or forced into by experience plus wiring
>   To:  a conflict including a desire the person can be
>   held accountable for having

Yes! Thank you! If those two toddlers made different free-willed choices,
what were those choices based on? To say that they had different desires,
of different taavos, is just circular logic.

R' David Guttmann asked:
> But are not his past experiences a consequences of earlier
> bechirot he did and the same goes for his personality? Why
> limit Bechirah to this particular act without taking into
> the sum total of all past decisions and actions?

Ein hachi nami. That's why I am trying to simplify the question, by going
all the way back to his very first choice. If we can do that, then there
*aren't* any "earlier bechirot", and the "sum total of all past decisions"
will be zero.

Of all the conflicted choices in a person's life, one of them had been the
very first. Imagine two toddlers, with identical histories and
predispositions - whether genetic, environmental, yichusdik, whatever. They
are in a certain situation, and one will choose to obey his parent and the
other willl choose to respond "No!"

How does this happen? How CAN it happen? If they had identical experiences
in the past, won't they make identical decisions in the present? Clearly,
they must have some sort of desire for this or for that which had not been
pre-programmed, because if everything *was* pre-programmed, then what
happens to responsibility? How can he be given praise or censure for
decisions that were pre-programmed?

Finding two toddlers whose histories are totally identical will never
happen in our universe. But it is the very definition of a multiverse of
parallel worlds. I was tempted to resolve this problem by suggesting that
at the moment this choice is made, two quantum child-universes are created,
one of which has the toddler who chose this, and the other has the toddler
who chose that. But this answer is false, because there's still no way to
assign responsibility for the choices. There's really no choice being made
at all.

I may have some tiny seeds of an answer, but it will need a LOT of help from people more learned than me.

We have come up against something which we can't explain. Unexplainable
things are often categorized as "miracle". I think we are dealing here with
a miracle of the highest order: A person really does have desires. He wants
this and doesn't want that, and he truly cannot explain why.

Up to now, our logic tells us that the reason a person wants something is
because that thing has shown various benefits in the past. But I'm
suggesting that there's something more. He wants it, but NOT because of his
past experiences, and also NOT because his personality was pre-programmed
to want it. Rather, he wants it because HaShem gave him the Bechira
Chafshis to choose, and he DID CHOOSE to want it.

But HOW? Our logic has reached an impasse. Man must have free will, but our
logic can't find room for free will to fit into the picture. The answer is
Tzelem Elokim. We've long accepted the idea that there is something Godly
about humans, and that this Godliness is connected to free will. Perhaps
we've come full circle.

We know that G-d is above nature. We know that man's free will is Godly. Do
the math: Free will is above nature. We really do make choices, and they
are based on what we WANT, not on what we've experienced, or our past
choices. (Not totally, at any rate.)

A toddler has gotten to his first real choice in life. He can do this, or
he can do that. He knows, based on past experience, what the likely
outcomes of each choice are. But he pauses. He has to think about it. Why?
Because he truly has a desire. He knows that he *ought* to do this, but he
*wants* to do that. He has a conflict. If he was a deterministic automaton
the conflict would be over in a second, but he is still struggling over
what to do.

And that, my friends, is a miracle.

Akiva Miller

PS: In case it's not obvious enough, I'd like to suggest that this entire
discussion can be easily modified into a question about Adam and Chava:
Prior to their sin, they had a very specific set of experiences and
knowledge, all of which had been easily set up in advance. So when they
took from the tree, was it truly a free-will choice, or maybe it was just a
pre-ordained reaction to the experiences they'd had up to that point. My
suggested answer is the same, both for today's toddler and that one-day-old
Man: Their Tzelem Elokim, that little bit of G-d within them, truly does
give them the ability to have desires and to make choices, based on what
they *want*.


____________________________________________________________
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RYBS in the chapter "Free Will and Repentance" in Al-Hatshuvah touches
on many of the points raised here in this discussion.

Saul Mashbaum

RTK:
>>
I believe that "zman" is a date or a season and "eis" is the time of
day.  You have "eis" as a point in the shana but I think that "zman"
is the word for a point in the calendar.
>>
See RSRH's commentary on Bereshit 18;10;

"There are two words for time, zman and eit. Zman is probably time in
general in its duration and effect; eit designates a point in time, a
moment either as befitting for some purpose or altogether as a
fraction of time"

RSRH then cites Kohelet 2:1 (davar b'ito ma tov, SM): Lakol zman,
v'eit l'kol chefetz. "Everything requres its time, and there is a
fixed, proper moment for every effort".

Shabbat Shalom umoadim l'simcha.

Saul Mashbaum

 
 
From RYGB's blog  <http://rygb.blogspot.com/2008/10/sukkah-q.html>:
>> .....So why  do we celebrate Succot now
>> at the beginning fo the rainy season if  we are putting orselves at
>> risk of encountering this siman  rah?

> It's a good question, to which I never really paid any  attention. I
> think that the logic is that the lack of rain is thus  clearly indicative
> of Hashgocho, as would not be the case at another  time of year.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha  Berger            


 
 
>>>>>
I think the premise of the question is  incorrect.  Sukkos falls late-ish 
once in a while only because we  stuck in an extra month to make Pesach fall late 
so that Pesach would be in the  spring and not in the winter.  However 
normally Sukkos is an autumn, not a  winter, festival, and the calendar is so 
arranged that it normally is not [yet]  the rainy season when Sukkos comes.  It's 
/not/ "supposed" to be a holiday  of the rainy season.




--Toby  Katz
GCT
=============



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RET
Do you have a source that the curse [of rain on Succot, SM] is only
the first night?

>>>>>

RTK
>>
I thought it was in Sefer Hatoda'ah but can't find it there
>>

Sefer Hatoda'ah  Vol I page 246 (the section "Geshem" in the chapter
"Hoshana u'Shmini Atzeret") says explicitly that rain is a "siman
klala" all of Succot ,which is why we say "Geshem" only starting from
Shmini Atzeret. In the sources section Sefer Hatoda'ah cites Taanit 2a
and Succa 29b, as I and other posters did.

I have not seen the peirush hamishnayot of the Rambam mentioned by
some posters, but cannot understand how the mishnyot in Taanit and
Succa can be understood to refer only to rain on the first night.
Both clearly refer to rain on all of Succot.

Saul Mashbaum

It is said that God's first creation were the Hebrew letters of the
language itself. From what is this idea derived? This creation is
alluded to in the words "Bereshis bara Elokim" (In the beginning
of God's creating) followed in the Hebrew by the untranslatable
word "es" (aleph, saf). This word alludes to all the letters of the
Hebrew alphabet, from the first letter (aleph) to the last (saf).
Allegorically, then, the first phrase in the Torah can be read: "In
the beginning, God created language" (followed by the rest of
creation).

Chassidic Insight
There is a lesson to be learned from the fact that God?s
spirit was present even in the void and darkness of primal
reality. Even when prospects seem bleak, the spirit
of messianic optimism is there; all we have to do is reveal
it. How do we do this? "Vay'hi or" "And there was light!" By
illuminating the world with the light of Torah.

rw

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Has anyone heard thoughts regarding the seemingly contradictory postures of
the Mitzvah of Sukkah, in which one is exempt as soon as one is
uncomfortable as opposed to the Mitzvah of Esrog in which Hiddur is a
compelling duty?

 From 
<http://www.beure
ihatefila.com/files/Good_Advice.pdf>http://www.beure
ihatefila.com/files/Good_Advice.pdf 


TRANSLATION: After finishing Tephilat Schacharit, a person should 
learn Torah for a
few moments or go to the Beis Midrash and listen to the students. 
Then he should attend
to his affairs and proceed to his place of work because Torah 
learning that is not combined
with work has no value. Poverty will then lead him to violate his 
Master's rules. He should
conduct his business in good faith. He should speak softly to other 
human beings. He
should not start fights with anyone. He should be careful not to take 
an oath even
concerning a matter that he knows to be true. Most certainly he 
should not take an oath
falsely and he should not mention G-d's name in vain. He should avoid 
idleness because
idleness causes improper urges. Instead he should always pursue lofty 
goals and he should
always be examining his personality and his deeds. If a person 
conducts himself within
these parameters he will be certain that G-d with bless him with 
success in whatever he
undertakes.





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On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 09:24:01AM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: I think the premise of the question is incorrect. Sukkos falls late-ish
: once in a while only because we stuck in an extra month to make
: Pesach fall late so that Pesach would be in the spring and not in the
: winter. However normally Sukkos is an autumn, not a winter, festival,
: and the calendar is so arranged that it normally is not [yet] the rainy
: season when Sukkos comes. It's /not/ "supposed" to be a holiday of the
: rainy season.

But HQBH obviously knew about Tishrei being late in the season as a
consequence of Nissan having to be chodesh haAviv. I would be forced to
conclude it is "supposed" to be that way. There is no "pesiq reishei"
or mis'aseiq WRT HQBH. All side-effects are part of the design.

All derashos aside, there is a simple reason for why Sukkos is when it
is. After all, it has an agricultural component; Chag haAsif has to be
at the time of asifah. And, while wallowing in our financial success,
the tendency toward crediting "kochi ve'otzem yadi" is balanced with
4 minim, with the sukkah reminding us the true Source of security, in
short that there is another Shutaf in one's success. This message must
be at the time of asifah, and thus at the edge of the rainy season.

For historical data of when the rainy season started over a 30 yr
period, see http://geo.haifa.ac.il/~kutiel/JAE-2004-59.pdf .
> The rainy season starts on the first day in which the rainfall amount
> equals or exceeds a specified threshold value. For example, for
> the lowest daily threshold (0.1 mm), the first day with a measurable
> rainfall (3.7 mm) at KRAN in 1982/83 was 28 September, or the 28th day
> (Table 1). For the 10mm daily threshold, this happened on 24 October
> (the 54th day), and for the 20mm daily threshold on 9 November (the
> 70th day). The first accumulated amount of 20mm in consecutive rain
> days within a rain spell (hereafter ARWS) was obtained 1 day earlier,
> on 8 November (0.3 + 14.3 + 6.4 = 21.0 mm), or the 69th day. New data
> series were created from these dates and arranged

Since yoreh is described as the first rains and as particularly heavy,
it would seem that a normal first rain was more like the early Nov date,
and thus the rain on 24 Oct was out of season. As was this year's
sunshower in Y-m on erev RH.

(BTW, it was pointed out to me in private email that while Oct 25th is
the latest date for Hoshanah Rabba for the foreseeable future, it didn't
happen in 2005.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 09:21:05PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: It is said that God's first creation were the Hebrew letters of the
: language itself. From what is this idea derived? This creation is
: alluded to in the words "Bereshis bara Elokim" (In the beginning
: of God's creating) followed in the Hebrew by the untranslatable
: word "es" (aleph, saf). This word alludes to all the letters of the
: Hebrew alphabet, from the first letter (aleph) to the last (saf).
...

According to Seifer haYetzirah, beri'ah involved 32 elements -- the 22
letters and the 10 sefiros. Isn't there a problem saying it's only about
22 of the 32 elements?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

The qorban minchah had to be eaten in the northern half of the azarah.

What was done on Sukkos? Are the qorbanos outide of "ke'ein taduru"? Did
they build a sukkah in the azarah?

The person who asked me this in shul was more amazed by his inability to
find a discussion of the topic than the question itself.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 04:34:25PM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
: Has anyone heard thoughts regarding the seemingly contradictory postures of
: the Mitzvah of Sukkah, in which one is exempt as soon as one is
: uncomfortable as opposed to the Mitzvah of Esrog in which Hiddur is a
: compelling duty?

Thinking out loud:

Taking an inferior esrog with which to thank HQBH for this year's crops
is kind of like repeating Kayin's error.

However, comfort in the Sukkah isn't what we are bringing to the
encounter with the Almighty, it's what He brings to us. In the mishnah,
rain is compared to the rav tossing the wine back in the eved's face;
the emphasis on it being from Him.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv


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