Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 361

Fri, 17 Oct 2008

• 1. Rain on Succos (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Re: Excerpted from the New York Jewish Times (Michael Poppers)
• 3. Re: rain on succot (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: etrogim and shmitta (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: Is the term he died before his time correct? (Marty Bluke)
• 6. Re: rain on succot (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Re: Gentiles in Torah (T6...@aol.com)
• 8. Re: rain on succot (T6...@aol.com)
• 9. Re: rain on succot (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Rain on Sukkot (Dov Kay)
• 11. Re: rain on succot (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: rain on succot (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: rain on succot (Saul Mashbaum)

>> The  weather forecast in Israel for the next several days is rain
in various parts  of the country. According to the gemara this is a
sign of a  curse.

You might also say that the fall in the Stock Market is also a curse  
of sorts.
However, when it turns around it becomes a brocho.
It is our job to turn the curse into a brocho.
ri

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081013/668ea393/attachment-0001.htm>

In Avodah Digest V25#358, CRRW wrote:
> Using gematria, Yehuda Aryeh Leib (author of Sefat Emet, "The Language
of Truth)," and Rebbe of Gora Kalwaria in Poland, near Warsaw, often
reminded his chassidim that the numerical value of lulav was 68, the
same as chayim, which means ?life.?
> It was this strong association with life that Jewish weddings
traditionally had an abundance of hadassim-style leaves on the chuppa,
and why fathers would give their sons a myrtle plant headgear wreath
to wear at their wedding. <
Sounds like the logic is missing a step between "lulav" and "hadas."  Given
that the g'matria of "hadas" is one more than that of "chayyim" (and
"lulav"), the two are connected, but why a quote re the connection between
"lulav" and "chayyim" when the nimshal related to the connection between
"hadas" and "chayyim"?  Thanks.

Chag Sameach/A guten Yuntef and all the best from
-- Michael Poppers via RIM pager
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081013/34cd148f/attachment-0001.htm>

On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 06:48:06PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: The weather forecast in Israel for the next several days is rain
: in various parts of the country. According to the gemara this is a
: sign of a curse
: 1. Succot is very late in the fall this year, does that make a difference?

From RYGB's blog <http://rygb.blogspot.com/2008/10/sukkah-q.html>:
>> Chag Sameach Rebbe, I hope you enjoy Succot and may we all be in
>> Yerushalaim to see the Beit HaMikdash bm"b. Also, my cousin raised a
>> question; we sepcifically sit in a succah now becasue it's nots so
>> nice at as opposed to nissan when it is nice out. But when it rains,
>> which is a norm for this time of year, it is a siman rah and we are
>> patur from sitting in the succah. So why do we celebrate Succot now
>> at the beginning fo the rainy season if we are putting orselves at
>> risk of encountering this siman rah?

> It's a good question, to which I never really paid any attention. I
> think that the logic is that the lack of rain is thus clearly indicative
> of Hashgocho, as would not be the case at another time of year.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
mi...@aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 8:02 PM, M Cohen <mco...@touchlogic.com> wrote:
> I guess I should feel sorry for the poor estrog merchants
>
> ie .. if prices this year when no profits can be made and only the
> most basic expenses covered, still the prices are the same as other years,
> they obviously must be making almost zero money (over basic expenses) even
> in other years

In theory the merchants get paid for their time and nothing else.
All year long it is a mystery why otzar bet din products are not cheaper
than the competition.

Just to clarify my previous post. Our local rabbi already mentioned in
his shabbat derasha that he didn't understand how they could sell different
levels of closed etrogim boxes at different prices. According to the radio
on sunday morning someone went to R. Elyashiv on sunday morning and
asked the same question. His answer was that it was completely prohibited
and one should limit the purchase of etrogim to the minimum feasible.
To the best of my knowledge this was a private psak. However, by sunday
night it was already on the religious radio. Of course by then almost everyone
had already bought their etrogim,


-- 
Eli Turkel

R' Micha Berger asked:
<I never got this, since a person is judged upon petirah for olam
haba.What does having a fate sealed in olam haba between YK and death
<mean?

A number of acharonim(the Gra, R' Aharon Kotler, and others) explain
Tosafos as follows. Chayei Olam Haba means spirituality in this world.
Torah and mitzvos is Chayei Olam Haba. Every year there is a din on
how much help (or harm) a person will get in ruchniyos.

Rn Toby Katz wrote:
<It is only a curse if it rains on the first night  of Sukkos at the time of
<the seudah and rains hard enough to prevent you  from eating in the sukka that
<night.   After midnight or any other  time during the chag rain is a bracha.
<Rashi says the best time for  rain is leilei Shabasos after midnight, when
<everybody is snug at home.  At  almost any other time, rain is definitely
<inconvenient but still a  bracha.

No, for a lot of reasons among them that there is a mitzva to sleep in
the succah and therefore if it rains after midnight you need to go
inside and sleep inside. The mitzva of succa is teshvu k'ein taduru,
you are supposed tolive in the succa not just eat there.

The Mishna in Succa 28b states that when it rains you go into your
house. The Mishna explain why with the following statement "it is like
a servant who comes to serve a drink to his master and the drink
spills on his face". The Gemara has a fascinating discussion about who
is getting the water spilled on their face, the servant or the master.
In any case neither the Mishna nor the Gemara restrict this to the
first night and in fact this din aplies on all 7 days.

 
 
From: Micha Berger _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:mi...@aishdas.org) 


So far they  match. Now, what as I can only see as apologetics for the
laaz speaking  audience:
> It should be noted that among the [umos ha'olam] there are  also to
> be found those whose souls are derived from kelipat nogah.33  Called
> "[chassidei umos ha'olam]," these righteous individuals are  benevolent
> not out of selfish motives but out of a genuine concern for  their fellow.

[snip]
One distinction one /could/ make, although the  Tanya does not the door is
open for it, is not between chassidei umos ha'olam  and other nachriim, but
between geirei toshav and other nachriim.  ...
But then, anyone who believes that nachriim are inherently  structurally
different rather than believing the differences are caused by  differences
in roles, already believes that geirei *tzedeq* undergo  structural
changes. Why not geirei toshav too?



>>>>>>
This seems to me to be related to the concurrent "bechira" thread now  
running on Avodah.  If some goyim are simply born with different  souls than others, 
and the ones with the better souls are the tzaddikei umos  ha'olam, then it 
seems that they aren't righteous because of the way they  exercise their free 
will but just because they're born that way.  Free will  doesn't seem to come 
into it.
 
OTOH they /choose/ to be righteous and /then/ as a consequence or reward,  
they are given "new and improved" souls, then the "better" goyim with the  
"better" souls got their way by their own efforts, by the exercise of their free  
will.





--Toby  Katz
GCT
=============



**************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  
Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out 
(http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081016/0f812f26/attachment-0001.htm>

 



Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008
From: "Eli Turkel" _eliturkel@gmail.com_ (mailto:elitur...@gmail.com) 

In Israel we  dont say morid hageshem for 2 weeks after succot so that
the pilgrims can  get home without rain.

Do you have a source that the curse is only the  first night.
As to rain on friday night who says that is also on  succot




>>>>>
I thought it was in Sefer Hatoda'ah but can't find it there, but it's one  of 
those well-known things, I'm sure one of the scholars on this list will know  
where to find it -- the idea that if you prepare the sukka and want to go in 
and  make kiddush and have a se'udah there but then it rains, it's like "the  
father who spits in his daughter's face," our offering is rejected, the bad  
weather seems to indicate Divine displeasure with us.  But this is only  true 
on the first night of Sukkos.  It would be unreasonable to expect no  rain for 
the whole week, everywhere in the world where there are Jews, and even  in 
years (like this one) when Sukkos is late and the rainy season should already  be 
starting.
 
As for not davening for rain until the olei regel have gone home,  that's for 
a completely different reason.  It's just a matter of  practicality.  If it 
rains while people are traveling to their homes, it's  muddy and troublesome 
and makes travel difficult, which is why we want the  rain to be delayed until 
the travelers are safely home.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
GCT
=============




**************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  
Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out 
(http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081016/9e1f7144/attachment-0001.htm>

Toby writes

> I thought it was in Sefer Hatoda'ah but can't find it there, but it's one of
> those well-known things,
>

Taking Toby's advice I asked several experts. It turns out it is not as simple
as that and certainly not well-known. There is a "diyuk" from a Rambam that
it is the first night only however many rishonim disagree and say the
curse is if
it rains any time on  succot (so we are both right -)

Rabbi Leff in discussing the issue was bothered by the olei regalim,
since it should
be a curse the whole time since the olei regailm are bothered by the
rain. His answer
was that according to Rambam once it is a curse the first day the rest is a
continuation of the main problem



-- 
Eli Turkel

<<Do you have a source that the curse is only the first night. As to rain on friday night who says that is also on succot.>>
 
I have not seen it myself, but my brother-in-law told me over YT that in
Peirush HaMishnayos, the Rambam states that it is a siman k'lala if rains
at "techilas hachag".  This has led many to speculate that the siman only
applies if it rains on the first night.  Others say it is to exclude
Shemini Atzeres.
 
A gut moed
Dov Kay
_________________________________________________________________
X Factor: latest video, features and more. Click here!
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454063/direct/01/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081016/4322f552/attachment-0001.htm>

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 01:14:34AM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: where to find it -- the idea that if you prepare the sukka and want to go in
: and make kiddush and have a se'udah there but then it rains, it's like "the 
: father who spits in his daughter's face," our offering is rejected, the bad  
: weather seems to indicate Divine displeasure with us. But this is only true 
: on the first night of Sukkos. It would be unreasonable to expect no rain for 
: the whole week, everywhere in the world where there are Jews...

Mishnah Sukkah 2:9 (trans. mine)
    All 7 days a person treats his sukkah [as though it were] permanent,
    and his home [as though it were] transitory.
    If rain falls, from when may one go in[to his home]? When the porridge
    becomes liquidy. They make a parable for it, what the thing is like:
    To a servant who came to pour wine for his master, and he pours the
    flagon in his face.

One could argue only the reisha refers to all 7 days, even though the
seifa is about how qeva is the reisha's "qeva".

Or one could argue it's only about EY, where siyata deShmaya is supposed
to be more obvious, and rain even in the later of chagei Sukkos is rare.
(I think Hoshana Rabba on Oct 25 2013 will be the latest in this 19 yr
cycle.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:28:00AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Rabbi Leff in discussing the issue was bothered by the olei regalim,
: since it should
: be a curse the whole time since the olei regailm are bothered by the
: rain. His answer
: was that according to Rambam once it is a curse the first day the rest is a
: continuation of the main problem

I'm confused. The siman qelalah is Hashem rejecting our desire to sit in
thee Sukkah. The difficulties of olei regel is a different mitzvah, nor
a complete rejection -- the people getting wet are still meqaymim the
mitzvah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

RTK
>>

It is only a curse if it rains on the first night of Sukkos at the
time of the seudah and rains hard enough to prevent you from eating in
the sukka that night.   After midnight or any other time during the
chag rain is a bracha.

>>
This is completely incorrect, as is clear from the first mishna in
Taanit, and the last mishana in the second chapter of Succa; rain is a
curse throught the entire holiday of Succot. See  SA OH 639;7 in the
Rama. The MB OH 114 seif katan 2 says explicitly that rain is a siman
klala on Succot, in keeping with the above sources.

RTK
>>
Rashi says the best time for rain is leilei Shabasos after midnight,
when everybody is snug at home
>>

This is close to being correct. Rashi on the well-known phrase  in the
second chapter of Kriat Sh'ma "v'natati m'tar artzchem b'ito ..."
says b'ito is at night, when rain is not inconvenient, davar acher,
leilei Shabbatot, when people are home. There is nothing there about
after midnight.

Saul Mashbaum


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 361
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."