Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 342

Thu, 25 Sep 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Liron Kopinsky" <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:54:01 -0700
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] induction cooking


Can there be a blech where the source of heat is the food itself?
      I think this is mistaken. I think that the source of heat is the pot
itself. The electromagnets in the stove agitate the pot causing it to heat
the food. When removed from the electromagnets, the pot particles
immediately stop agitating, and therefore the pot doesn't really feel hot.

Thanks,
~Liron
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Message: 2
From: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:43:23 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Davening To Angels


I think the practice of davening to angels is wrong but it may be  
looked upon as treating the angels as intermediaries or intercessors  
rather than a substitute for God. To call it avodah zara is rather  
harsh. The other problem with davening to angels is that we approach  
God directly and do not use intermediaries. That's why we confess  
directly and not through the kohen or any other substitute or  
surrogate. On the other hand, I'm sure we've all seen children pray to  
their dead parents to put in a good word for them. Frankly, I'd think  
an angel would have more influence.
Shana tova umetuka.
ri


  
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Message: 3
From: "Mike Miller" <avo...@mikeage.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 06:13:55 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] induction cooking


On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 8:00 PM, Menachem Posner <menach...@juno.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know of any information concerning this increasingly popular
> form of cooking where electromagnetism causes the food to heat up without
> heating the pot or range?

I'm afraid you're misunderstanding induction heating. In this method,
the _pot_ (which must be made of a conducting material such as metal,
not glass) is heated via induction, instead of being heated by a coil.
The pot then heats the food.

A microwave, OTOH, heats the food directly (more precisely, heats the
water molecules within the food).

Based on this, you may need to reconsider your questions.

A microwave "oven" would apply to your questions, however, for safety
reasons, a microwave over must be enclosed to prevent microwaves from
escaping. The metal mesh on the glass door serves this purpose (look
up a farady cage for more info), but even if you were to put the
actual magnetron (the microwave generator) on a timer, I don't think
you'd want to use one without a proper safety interlock to prevent it
from turning on with the door open. This would present many of the
same shailos as a refrigerator or stove door switch

-- Mike Miler
Ramat Bet Shemesh



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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:48:19 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Praying to angels


On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:19pm GMT, R Dov Kay wrote:
: As we get stuck into our Selichos, I was wondering what listmembers
: do about the selichos which involve petitioning things/entities other
: than G-d, eg machnisei rachamim...

Personally, I do not say it. Not much of a big deal, since I'm usually
12 pages behind at this point and need to choose /something/ to skip
before I fall asleep anyway.

However, in general, I skip things I can not understand in clearly
permissable ways. Not as a matter of halakhah, but simply because there
is little motivation to say a piyut if I can't get behind its meaning.

Similarly, my 4 verses of Shalom Aleikhem are "Shalom Aleikhem", "Boachem
leShalom", "Beshivtikhem leShalom" and "Tzeisekhem leShalom". A different
subset of the 5 verses said by many Sepharadim (and some Chassidim)
than usual for Ashkenazim, but avoids my mind being distracted by the
question of whether I should ask an angel for a berakhah.

And, as I mentioned in previous iterations, when guests are over (except
this week, as I believe our guest will have read this post) I mutter the
first word so as not to make a public point of diverging.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
mi...@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 5
From: "Danny Schoemann" <doni...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:37:52 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] Praying to angels


The 2nd Perek of Chagiga describes in some detail the spiritual
landscape from earth to the One Above.

The fact is that there are angels (or whatever you want to call these
spiritual entities) that are making things happen "up there".

While we believe that Hashem is everywhere, we also say our tefillos
go "up" to be heard. For a whisper or thought to go anywhere it needs
intermediaries if it's to go anywhere.

Vaguely parallel to talking on the phone; I'm talking directly to you,
yet there are thousands of pieces of "machinery" helping my voice
along.

Maybe a better parallel would be from the olden days you'd ask an
operator to connect you; Machnisei Rachamim... maybe we're simply
asking the spiritual operators to be so kind as to create the
"connection" to the One Above.

- Danny, not really understanding what he's talking about.



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Message: 6
From: "Yisrael Dubitsky" <yidubit...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:29:02 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] Index to Avodah discussions on Yamim Nora'im


I am pleased to inform the chevreh that an index I have prepared of the High
Holiday discussions/posts on Avodah from 1998 through 24/9/08 has been
uploaded to http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/10yt.shtml
There is also a link to it from www.aishdas.org/avodah . (Thanks to RMicha
for his help!)

I know it is not perfect but hope it proves useful to some of you. I would
be grateful for feedback.

bi-tefilot derishot u-keri'ot be-himatse'o uve-hiyeto karov
le-shanah tovah u-metukah, ketivah va-hatimah tovah vekol tov,
Yisrael Dubitsky
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Message: 7
From: "Meir Rabi" <meir...@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:34:38 +1000
Subject:
[Avodah] Atonement Erev Yom Kippur, Appeasing the Victim


Shulchan Oruch Siman 606 discusses the need to mollify those we have hurt.

Although the Siman is titled, "The Duty of Appeasing One's Friend Before Yom
Kippur" the Mechaber does not actually mention the timing. He simply
describes that YK alone will not remedy inter-personal sins until the victim
is mollified; and elaborates on how to go about achieving that.

The Mishneh Berurah however explains that there is an obligation related to
this day that compels us before YK to gain atonement. And this obligation is
quite independent of the personal duty to seek forgiveness by mollifying the
victim. He explains that although there is a duty and obligation all year to
appease, that may somehow get delayed because one has no time.

I wonder if someone may be able to offer some explanation of what this
means. Which Mitzvos are we obliged to perform but can legitimately delay
because we do not have sufficient time?

The MB continues: this day preceding YK brings a NEW obligation to mollify
the victim. This obligation emerges from the Passuk, Ki BaYom HaZeh YeChaper
... This Passuk is not just describing HKBH's kindness in forgiving us but
is obligating us to ensure that on YK we are cleansed and forgiven.

Does anyone know anymore about this obligation?

I believe the Kaf HaChaim quoting the Tur and the Levush has a different
opinion. The obligation stems from the communal obligation to be clean from
all sin. If any one individual is not repented then the entire community is
vulnerable to the accusations of SamoEl and we may all be denied
forgiveness. It is the community need that compels the individual to mollify
his victim. It would appear to be a very serious example of Arvus - communal
responsibility.

We might observe from this the power of just one individual over the
community and the responsibility that the entire community bears for just
one individual who is too stubborn or arrogant or too weak, to mollify his
victim.

Perhaps the MB intends to refer to the reason suggested in the Tur, that the
Passuk Ki BaYom is directed to the community who have this obligation.



Shana Tova
Meir





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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 09:50:53 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] mi yamut


David Riceman wrote:
> Rich, Joel wrote:
>>  IIRC I  heard from a bar hachi that Sanhedrin will not necessarily 
>> feel the need to unify all psak (it knocked my socks off).
>>
> How else would you justify having Sanhedrins for each shevet?

The same way you justify having one for each city.  Et hadavar hakaton
yishpetu hem.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 9
From: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 07:14:16 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Free Will Vs. Physics


> If you meant to do a mitzva and through no fault of your own you were
> unable to complete the action, you still get schar

But not as if you had actually done it.

That's true. If you had done it, you'd be in the first row.  If you  
were unable to complete the action, you'd be in the second or third row.

I recall as a teenager being told I got "s'char licha" for going to  
shul when it turned out there was no minyan (during a blizzard).

ri
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Message: 10
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 08:14:15 EDT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Free Will vs. Physics


 
 
From: Zev Sero _zev@sero.name_ (mailto:z...@sero.name) 


> If you meant to do  a mitzva and through no fault of your own you were 
> unable to complete  the action, you still get schar [--TK]

>>But not as if you had  actually done it.  The mitzvah didn't actually get
done, so its results  didn't happen.  The friend who was to get the kugel
surely appreciated  and was comforted by the thought, but she still had
to eat something  else.  That's physics too.<<


 
 
 

>>>>
If you're zoche, your good intentions come to  fruition, if you're not zoche, 
they don't, and the mitzvos you wanted to do  don't actually get done.  What 
might you have done that caused you to be  rewarded with the ability to carry 
out your good intentions -- or not?   Schar mitzva mitzva.  I guess if you did 
something right you will have the  zechus of being able to do more things 
right.  By "doing something right" I  mean doing in the sphere where bechira 
actually reigns -- the sphere of  thinking, believing, desiring, wanting, trying 
and intending to do Hashem's  will (or not).  If your good intentions fail, 
presumably there was  something lacking in those original thoughts and intentions.




--Toby  Katz
=============






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Message: 11
From: "M Cohen" <mco...@touchlogic.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 08:53:37 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] induction cooking


RMP writes ... Does anyone know of any information concerning this
increasingly popular form of cooking where electromagnetism causes the food
to heat up without heating the pot or range?

this is NOT correct - induction cooking heats the pot, which then heats the
food
(btw, microwave cooking does indeed causes the food to heat up without
heating the pot or range)

see http://theinductionsite.com/how-induction-works.shtml

How does cooking on such a range work on Shabbos and Yomtov?
as any normal stove

Is *removing* a pot a problem since it effectively stops the heating
process?
of course

Can there be a blech where the source of heat is the food itself?
I don't see how a blech is possible, because it's not possible to place a
blech between the heat source (the pot) and the food. 
perhaps b'dieved to rely on the opinions that one can cover the knobs (as
some do for crockpots)

mordechai cohen





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Message: 12
From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:59:09 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Atonement Erev Yom Kippur, Appeasing the Victim


Meir Rabi wrote:
> Which Mitzvos are we obliged to perform but can legitimately delay
> because we do not have sufficient time?
>   
Nedavos, korbanos hova.  You may delay up to a year (there's a machlokes 
whether it's a real year or a fiscal year).

David Riceman



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Message: 13
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:09:00 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Praying to angels


Danny Schoemann wrote:

> While we believe that Hashem is everywhere, we also say our tefillos
> go "up" to be heard. For a whisper or thought to go anywhere it needs
> intermediaries if it's to go anywhere.

This is explicit in gemara and halacha: we are told that while the
tefila of a minyan, or of an individual during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva,
goes directly to its destination, the tefila of an individual during the
year must be conveyed by mal'achim, who don't understand Aramaic, and
therefore can't convey those passages in the tefila.  What exactly this
means isn't clear to me, but it's there in all the sources, black on
white.

 
> Maybe a better parallel would be from the olden days you'd ask an
> operator to connect you; Machnisei Rachamim... maybe we're simply
> asking the spiritual operators to be so kind as to create the
> "connection" to the One Above.

The problem with this is that mal'achim are not supposed to have
bechira.  Indeed, the definition of shituf is the belief that the
powers above, such as the sun and moon or the mal'achim, have the
bechira not to convey Hashem's blessings to us, and therefore have
to be cajoled, or even bribed, in order to do so, just as is the
case with a king's ministers and servants.  That's allowed for Bnei
Noach, but not for us.  We're supposed to understand that they have
no bechira, and therefore asking them to do things for us is like
asking a workman's tool to do something, instead of asking the
workman himself.

Back before automatic telephone exchanges, one did indeed have to ask
the operator politely to connect one to the desired number; if one
didn't ask she wouldn't know what number was wanted, and if one was
rude she could refuse to make the connection.  Nowadays nobody thinks
to ask the telephone to please connect to the correct number.

So where does that leave us with "machnisei rachamim" and "shlosh
esre midot"?  All I can say is that this was dealt with over the
centuries by those well above my pay grade, and the overwhelming
majority concluded that it should be said.  My bottom line is that
if R Amram Gaon and R Shrira Gaon wrote to say it, it can't be wrong.


> - Danny, not really understanding what he's talking about.

Zev, ditto.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas


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