Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 299

Mon, 18 Aug 2008

• 1. Re: Geirus (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Bracha on Megillah (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Geirus (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: KSA, MB, AhS, Chayei Adam and other codes (David Riceman)
• 5. Re: aveilus of Nine Days is equivalent to Shloshim (Gershon Dubin)
• 6. Re: Bracha on Megillah (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: Is there an issur in smoking marijuana? (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Re: Is there an issur in smoking marijuana? (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 9. marijuana (JoshHoff@aol.com)
• 10. Re: Is there an issur in smoking marijuana? (Gershon Seif)
• 11. Re: Is there an issur in smoking marijuana? (T613K@aol.com)
• 12. Re: Is there an issur in smoking marijuana? (Zev Sero)

Qabbalas ol mitzvos is required of the geir qatan. "Ve'im higdilu
yekholim limchos" (Kesuvos 11a).

There is a logistic problem making it impossible to time this, since
geirus would require the deOraisa standard of 2 sa'aros. And once chal,
it's binding forever so the window of opportunity is all of tokh kedei
dibur from growing that second sa'ar. The gemara says "sha'ah achas",
which here means "one point in time" not an hour, but there is no
pragmatic difference in terms of the impossibility of determination.

This is why lemaaseh we assume that a child in that situation who acted
as a member of the shomer Torah umitzvos community from before that time
until after is a valid geir.

But in terms of our discussion, KOM (or QOM, as I would transliterate it)
is required as part of geirus; the question with qetanim is only in how
one does that.

As for the Rambam, I reposted the following summary of a talk by RYBS
(May '68, Nordlicht #5286) by R' Rivlin and R' Josh Rapps at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol05/v05n069.shtml#05>.

We also argued this topic at length in vol4, around 254 (when I drag
in the Rambam at <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n254.shtml#09>
to 270 or so (which also forked into the thread titled "Geirus for
Marriage").

Here's how I read the Rambam (from v4n256), some noted rav objected off
list (I don't recall who, this was 8-1/2 years ago), but my error was
never explained. 

> However, in [Issurei Bi'ah] 13:12 the Rambam states that in the days
> of David and Shelomo, when we had reason to supspect someone's motives,
> we tried not to make geirim. And, when hedyotos did, so now we're talking
> bedi'eved, "Vihayu Beis Din haGadol chosheshin lahen. Lo dochin osan,
> achar shetivlu bichol makom. Bilo mekarvin osan ad shetiya'eh acharison.

> When we get to 13:14, where they did geirus and omitted to check his
> motives before hand, if they know that he had an ulterior motive,
> "yatza miklal hagoyim, vechosheshin lo ad sheyisba'eir tzidkaso". In
> a case of ignorance, he's not bechezkas goy, but again we see the word
> "chosheshin" -- we can't say he is a Jew either.

> If a safeik of whether he holds a secondary proper motive in addition to
> the improper one produces a cheshash in the geirus, I can't see how one
> can argue that the Rambam holds that with a chazakah that the 2nd motive
> doesn't exist (e.g. an engaged person who converts under the auspices
> of three men who don't believe halachah is binding) can produce a geir.

> So then what about 13:13 itself -- the geirus of Shimshon and Shelomo's
> wives? It very explicitely says "vichashvun hakasuv ki'ilu hein goyos,
> ubi'isuran omdin". The biblical examples of people who went through the
> forms, married Jews, but were not mekabeil ol mitzvos, are all non-Jews!

My naive reading of the Rambam makes a chiluq between the criterion for
geirus and the criterion for having to assume geirus. RYBS resolves the
same difficulty by making a tzvei dinim between ceasing to be a non-Jew
and becoming a geir tzedeq. One is not permitted lechat-khilah to marry
someone who wasn't meqabeil ol mitzvos. However, the marriage would
be binding bedi'eved, and all the other chiyuvim bein adam lachaveiro
(eg hashavas aveidah) would apply.

I do not see how R' Uzziel's shitah, that KOM isn't required as long
as the person accepts peoplehood, is supportable by the Rambam. The
Rambam clearly states that at some level "be'issuran omedin" and the
Mishpetei Uzziel is allowing a BD to choose this course lechat-khilah
(admittedly in suboptimal circumstances).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
micha@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 04:40:11PM +0300, D&E-H Bannett wrote:
: In my shul they read all the megilot from klaf and with 
: b'rakhot.  Once I was asked to read and refused because, as 
: there is no universal minhag to read the megillot in shul on 
: yomtov, I didn't agree to say the  b'rakhot.

I could see a reason not to buy a kelaf, since it shows an expectation
that one would be mourning enough 9 beAv's to justify the investment.
For similar reasons, there was initially rabbinic resistence to
hard-cover bound sifrei Qinos, saying there was meaning in using the
cheap staple-back ones.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

 
 

R'n Chana Luntz wrote (on Areivim):
>>If kabalas ol  mitzvos is an intrinsic requirement for giyor, then it could
not be done for  a minor, because a minor does not have daas, and hence is
not capable of  kabalas ol mitzvos. <<
 
 
 >>>>>
But no (or few) poskim would perform a gerus on a child being adopted by  
non-observant Jews who will not raise the child to be Torah-observant.  So  
SOMEBODY has to be mekabel ol hamitzvos it seems to me -- if not the child  (since 
he's not a bar da'as), then the parents who will raise and educate  him.


 




--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
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Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 05:38:33PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> : Micha Berger wrote:
> : >RER makes a number of claims.
>
> : I'm hazy on the details, but I do recall that RYBS's comment on RER came 
> : several years before anyone introduced mekah ta'us into the equation.  I 
> : suspect one of us has the history mixed up, and maybe we should verify 
> : that before we continue the discussion.
>   
Well I found half of it.  RER proposed hafka'as kedushin by having BD 
retroactively mafkir the ring.  The half I don't recall is how that's 
related to tav l'meisav.  In any case your hilluk is valid for this.

David Riceman

-- "Moshe Feldman" <moshe.feldman@gmail.com> wrote:

<<What about eating meat? Who bans eat during Shloshim - or even Shiva?>>
I just heard this week of a family in our neighborhood, Sefaradi in origin
who is r"l sitting shiva and do not eat meat during that time.	Don't know
the exact origin either of the family or of the practice.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

____________________________________________________________
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I could see a reason not to buy a kelaf, since it shows an expectation
that one would be mourning enough 9 beAv's to justify the investment.
For similar reasons, there was initially rabbinic resistence to
hard-cover bound sifrei Qinos, saying there was meaning in using the
cheap staple-back ones.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
_______________________________________________
Actually IIRC R'YBS stated the minhag was to get rid of the kinot books
every year for just this reason.
KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

 

        Hi there,

        Was speaking to a non-relig. co-worker who asked if Halacha
forbids smoking marijuana?
        
        

        Can anyone share sources? Answers?

        thank you,

         Avroham


________________________________

         
        See Iggrot Moshe Y"D 3:35.
        He prohibits in one of my favorite tshuvot (I often use it as an
example where it's clear imvho that the answer came before the rationale
- see R'MF tshuva on smoking for comparison)
        KT
        Joel Rich 

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R' Avroham Yakov:
Hi there,
Was speaking to a non-relig. co-worker who asked if Halacha forbids smoking
marijuana?

Can anyone share sources? Answers?
------------


Yotze Ad D'lo Yada with marijuana, and he said that it's a Mitzvah Haba
B'aveirah.

KT,
MYG

 
In a message dated 8/18/2008 11:37:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org writes:

co-worker who asked if Halacha forbids smoking  marijuana?



We used to joke that you make a tefilas haderech on it. A certain  
Conservative rabbi used to tell students to use marijuana in order to fulfill  the 
mitzvah of visualizing oneself as having left Mitzrayim. There was an  article in 
Jewish Life in the early 1970s in which several rabbanim gave their  opinions 
on whether there is an issur to take mind-expanding  drugs( the answer was 
yes-just a question of what issur). . IIRC, Rav  Ahron Soloveichik,who was one of 
these people ( R.I.Jacobovitz was  another),included marijuana in whatever 
issurim he mentioned. He wrote about it  at greater length in an article in 
Tradition around that time ( 1973 I think),  entitled something like Drug Curture 
Vs. Torah Tznius.You can probably access  his article online.



**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
Read reviews on AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-
review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
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Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igros Moshe YD III:35 writes that it's forbidden for
a few reasons. One of them I found interesting was that the smoker's
parents wouldn't like it. (Nowadays that wouldn't be an issue.) Another
reason he gives is because of being like a ben Sorer Umoreh who among his
transgressions is being a glutton and also not caring about mitzvos. Rav
Moshe writes that someone who is high arouses his desire for food and other
pleasures and that is not a Torahdik way to behave - as well as being
sloppy with his mitzvos in that state of mind. There are other reasons
given there but I don't have the sefer in front of me.

 
 
From: Avroham Yakov _avyakov@hotmail.com_ (mailto:avyakov@hotmail.com) 


>>Was speaking to a non-relig. co-worker who asked if Halacha  forbids 
smoking marijuana? <<




>>>>
I think it would only be forbidden halachically in a  country where the 
secular law forbids it, under dina demalchusa.  It's bad  for your lungs if you 
smoke regularly so there might also "Hishamer  lenafshecha."  OTOH a person 
undergoing chemo could benefit from smoking  pot so it might be halachically OK 
then and the medical need might even override  dina demalchusa.  If a frum person 
gets caught dealing and gets thrown into  jail or gets his picture in the 
paper there might be a question of chillul  Hashem.




--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
Read reviews on AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-
review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
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Gershon Seif wrote:
> Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igros Moshe YD III:35 writes that it's forbidden
> for a few reasons. One of them I found interesting was that the smoker's
> parents wouldn't like it. (Nowadays that wouldn't be an issue.) Another
> reason he gives is because of being like a ben Sorer Umoreh who among
> his transgressions is being a glutton and also not caring about mitzvos.
> Rav Moshe writes that someone who is high arouses his desire for food
> and other pleasures and that is not a Torahdik way to behave - as well
> as being sloppy with his mitzvos in that state of mind. There are other
> reasons given there but I don't have the sefer in front of me.

Many of the same arguments apply to alcohol, and indeed overuse of alcohol
is a bad thing, but moderate use is a good thing and a blessing of Hashem.
I don't see why the same should not apply to marijuana, at least in theory.
To my mind the only reason not to use it today is that the mere act of
buying it requires getting involved with undesirable people, and all the
bad things that can come from that.

The only source I can think of about drugs is the gemara in Arvei Psachim
that *advises* against get addicted to anything, lest one find oneself
one day without the means to satisfy the addiction, and be forced to
resort to stealing.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas


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