Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 274

Mon, 28 Jul 2008

• 1. Hashavat Aveida or Lifnei Iver? (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Re: TIDE and Austritt (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: Halachic Texts: More Background (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: infallibility of chazal (Harry Maryles)
• 5. Re: length of the aron (Arie Folger)
• 6. Re: nes nigleh (Doron Beckerman)
• 7. Re: Likut Atzomos (T613K@aol.com) (saul mashbaum)
• 8. Re: TIDE and Austritt (David Riceman)
• 9. Re: re to returning forbidden lost object (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 10. Re: infallibility of chazal (Richard Wolpoe)
• 11. Re: Halachic Texts: More Background (Richard Wolpoe)

The question was asked:
> One of the shabbatot in the last few weeks I spent in a hotel for a
> shabbaton, and one of the people who I was rooming with left a razor  
> behind
> when they left.
> Is there a mitzvah of Hashavat Aveida, or can I not return it  
> because of the
> obvious halachik implications of using it?

I assume by a razor left behind, it wasn't just a razor alone but  
rather the shaving implement which is also referred to as a razor (as  
opposed to just a razor blade which could have
been used for something other than shaving).

If indeed it was a shaving razor, I'll answer the question with  
another question.  If that same individual left behind a can of  
crabmeat, is there a mitzvah of hashavat aveida. I don't
think so.

By the way, if it was after shiva asar b'Tammuz, you could have told  
him he shouldn't shave. (That's like saying what b'rocho do you make  
over lobster)?

ri
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As for the chaplaincy, it is questionable whether it is permissible for
an Orthodox rabbi to be an army chaplain, since it is almost impossible
to avoid interacting with R and C chaplains as colleagues and fellow
officers.  In a hospital setting it is easier to avoid the "other"
rabbis.
 

         =====================
         
        For those who are interested, R'YBS has a long piece on the
issue of orthodox military chaplains (both from the macro and micro
viewpoint) in Community, Covenant and Commitment.  He is in favor.
         
        KT
        Joel Rich 

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From: "Richard Wolpoe" _rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com_ 
(mailto:rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com) 


>>  He says the conclusion is paramount - be matir Agunos. There are  many
statements saying how this is important.
then he takes a text that  says "Kol demekaeish ada'ata derabban medkadeisih'
then he says biyameinu, we  see that woman do NOT tolerate abuse as they did
in the time of Shas and so  tav lemisav does not outweigh a woman's need for
dignity. Presto.  You  have mikach ta'us because what woman would have
KNOWINGLY entered an  arrangement that would have let her be abused

Lemashal:

Had I know  that I would be abused I would not make that neder
Similarly:
Had I know  that this husband was a sociopath I would not have  accepted
kiddushin.
Presto! afkin'u based upon mikach ta'us  <<




>>>>>
Without getting into whether this would work  halachically, I would like to 
point out that if you are working on the  assumption that human nature has 
changed, I believe that assumption is  incorrect.  For financial and social 
reasons, women find it easier to bail  out of a bad marriage than they used to, but 
you still find that a majority of  women would rather remain in an unhappy 
marriage, or stay with an abusive  boyfriend, rather than be alone.   You see 
this every day, among both  Jewish and non-Jewish women.  

--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for 
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--- On Fri, 7/25/08, Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:
For some reason I can't cut and paste your post but I have to disagree
that believing that chazal were fallible is tantamount to heresy.>>

It is clear that individual Tannaim and Amoraim can err. The Gemara itself
uses phrases like "he must have been sleeping when he said this"
or other phrases indicating that the idea is mistaken.
--------------------------------------------
?
I think using the word 'infallible' WRT Chazal is a mistake. I use it all
the time but that is not what I mean.?I regret using it in my original post
and will try not to do so anymore. 
?
Obviously Chazal were fallible or else there could never have been
Machlokes. Saying they were infallible would mean they cannot possibly have
been wrong. That would make them gods -? which in and of itself is hersey.
? 
What I think is more accurate to say is that the?Psak of Chazal should be looked at as binding, not that they were infallible. For?several??reasons: 
?
a) because of their high level of integrity,?their character, their,?and their conduct.
?
b) because of their being closer (in the chain of Mesoarh) to Sinai ( i.e. - less of the 'telephone game' type error of transmission) and 
?
c) their greater understanding of the 'mesorah of methodology' than our own
unerstanding of it...? menaing their better understanding of?when and how
to use the Shlosh Esreh Midos SheHaTorah Nidreshes Bahen.
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/
?
?


      
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RZS wrote:
> 1. The original aron is still wherever Yoshiahu Hamelech hid it.

If that view in the Mishnah & Gemara is correct. Rabban Gamliel had such a 
tradition, and he and his beit din prostrated themselves in 14 places in the 
Beit haMiqdash - including at the Dir ha'Etzim. However, as the Mishnah 
explains (Sheqalim ch. 6) the majority only prostrated themselves in 13 
places. Reish Laqish held like Rabban Gamliel, but Rabbi Eli'ezer the Amora 
held that the aron was exiled, never to be seen again, and thus aligns 
himself with the tanna qama. (sugya on that Mishnah)

Now, the prospect of finding the aron again is, of course, infinitely more 
attractive than having lost it. However, 'Hazal taught us two views; perhaps 
we should treat this as a safeq.
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

The staff of Aharon turning into a snake and back into a staff and eating
the others. The fire of Eliyahu consuming the water of the Mizbayach.
L'maaseh even the Rambam had to explain certain Nissim as programmed into
the nature of the things that the NIssim had to, since they were seemingly
breaks of "normal" natural occurences. So somehow that fire was programmed
to be able to consume water - but that's not the normal property of fire.
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>>
I thought they did not "bury their dead in a grave" but kept the bones in
some kind of container until the flesh decayed, after which they buried the
bones.	The pile of bones would take up much less space than a whole body,
and in a city where space for burial was scarce (old Y-m, 2000 years ago)
and it was also hard to dig a grave in rocky ground, there would be a big
advantage to having graves as small as possible.  They also used to bury
the bones of several people in the same small plot.  I may be wrong about
all this, it's just dim memories and impressions.
>>
I dont believe that this is completely correct. From what I understand, the
body was "buried" by placing it, whole, in a cavity hewn into the side of a
cave, which was sealed by a stone. After several years, when the boy had
decayed, the stone was removed, and the bones were put in a small container
(which had to be only about 1.5 feet long, the length of the longest bone
in the body, the thigh bone). This of course freed up the cavity for reuse.
The small container was, I believe buried, as RTK indicates.

I recently saw such a burial ground, from the time of the mishna,  on Har Hazeitim.

Saul Mashbaum
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T613K@aol.com wrote:
> TK:  It was the Gemeinde O's who did wrong originally in the 19th 
> c. by not accepting the authority of the Rav of their community, who 
> was also one of the Gedolei Hador, Rav Hirsch.
I am neither a Western European nor a historian.  Nonetheless, I thought 
that a lot of Rabbi Hirsch's problems stemmed precisely from his not 
being the rav of the community of Frankfort, but instead the rav of a 
group of people who wished to secede from that community.  People do 
this regularly nowadays, but I thought that the loopholes permitting 
this were not well respected in Germany prior to Rabbi Hirsch (in 
Eastern Europe the hassidim had already provided a plethora of precedent).

David Riceman

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:30:23 -0700 someone asked me off-list for a
synopsis of the source that I cited:

> Just today, I noticed that Resp. Shraga Ha'Meir (2:4) cites a
> discussion of this exact question by "Ha'Gaon Ha'Zaddik Ha'Mebubal
> MHR"A Shimon Ha'Levi Horowitz HY"D, who was a R"M in Yeshivas Hachmei
> Lublin, and afterward in Cracow YZ"V", in a manuscript letter.

R. Horowitz, in the course of his consideration of the question of the
existence of an obligation to return a razor to one who uses it to
shave "pe'as zikno", writes:

"And consider, if we were in control, would it not be permitted and a
Mizvah to seize the razor from his possession and even to destroy it,
if there is no other way to save him from the sin, and it is certainly
prohibited to return it ..."

Note that this is apparently only a fragment of his discussion of the
question.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

>
> What I think is more accurate to say is that the Psak of Chazal should be
> looked at as binding, not that they were infallible.
>

 It's just like Umpires.  They are not infallible but their ruling are
oficial.

Consider Hazal as:

   1. Reliable
   2. Authoritative
   3. Informative
   4. Sincere

I have made similar points over the years about minhaggim or the Psakim in
SA. They are reliable but not infallible [especially in the absence of
contravening evidence]. It's a useful distinction imho.

One of my LW colleagues accuses some RW Ortho's as treating  their Rabbanim
as infallible. I often dispute him and say that they consider them as
reliable, NOT as infallbile. There is a difference.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 4:49 PM, <T613K@aol.com> wrote:

>
> >>>>>
> Without getting into whether this would work halachically, I would like to
> point out that if you are working on the assumption that human nature has
> changed, I believe that assumption is incorrect.  For financial and social
> reasons, women find it easier to bail out of a bad marriage than they used
> to, but you still find that a majority of women would rather remain in an
> unhappy marriage, or stay with an abusive boyfriend, rather than be alone.
> You see this every day, among both Jewish and non-Jewish women.  *
> *
> *--Toby Katz
> =============*
>

I'm not taking sides - accept to be open-minded to the possiblity of change.
And I'm not saying R. Rackman has the facts. I am just saying he COULD
construe the facts as having changed.

Or he could say that any woman protesting her fate vociferously is part of a
minority that prefers isolation to suffering an abusive relationship.

Let's face it, we are not truly operating in the USA under the old Torah
system. Kesubbos [afaik] * are not enforced and we rely upon dina
demalchusa, etc.

* in Toronto I was a witness [for the BD] to several gittin and in every
case the kessuba was torn up and not even used.

The point is taht RYBS said that tav lemseisav is an aboslute. WADR, I
disagree.

The gmara talks about in the earlier generations "Yibbumists" were sincere
but they aren't anymore. So we see that human motives are subject to change
etc. EVEN within fundamental Talmudic law.

OTOH, I would agree that one is not REQUIRED to buy into R. Rackman's
shita.  But I think it is arguably as eilu v'eilu as anyone else.

There is a real problem. This is doucmented by Aaron Beck, PhD as "Emotional
Reasoning" viz. "because we THINK it is true, there it IS true" That is an
unhealthy view of reality [what he terms a dsfunctional thought] and can
actiually be shown to be the root cause of a good deal of apthology.  Just
because in someone's humble opnion X is true is not a rational reason to
IMPOSE that logic on others.
And many people do -  but more by force of personality than by rational
persuasion.

Tanur Achinai teachs us a good lesson in lo saguru. Don't ever be
intimidated by force of charisma, etc.never mind the force of "magic".


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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