Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 267

Thu, 24 Jul 2008

• 1. Alei Shur: "Mussar is not hashkafa" (Michael Kopinsky)
• 2. A discussion of the Brachos on papaya (Josh Skolnick)
• 3. Re: what G-d can't do (Stuart Feldhamer)
• 4. Re: what G-d can't do (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: ra-ah - da-ah (saul mashbaum)
• 6. Re: money and halakhah (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Re: money and halakhah (Marty Bluke)
• 8. Re: police misdeeds and trial evidence (hankman)
• 9. Re: A discussion of the Brachos on papaya (Ari Zivotofsky)
• 10. Re: police misdeeds and trial evidence (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: police misdeeds and trial evidence (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Alei Shur: "Mussar is not hashkafa" (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: what G-d can't do (Joshua Meisner)
• 14. Re: ra-ah - da-ah (Micha Berger)

In Alei Shur, Chelek Beis, Maareches Hamussar Perek Aleph, Rav Wolbe goes
through several things of what mussar is not. Mussar is not philosophy,
mussar is not "Jewish thought", mussar is not
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I heard that there is a discussion regarding what bracha you make on papya.
Does anyone have the sources that I should look into to understand what the
discussion is?

Yosef Skolnick
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> "hamispalel lesheavar harei zo tefillas shav" seems to mean that it is
> impossible, i.e. by logic G-d cannot change the past

Why must it be impossible? Perhaps G-d can change the past, but won't.

Stuart

Eli Turkel wrote:

> as mentioned in the article all rishonim seem to agree that G-d can't do
> things against logic or basic physics laws.

How do they deal with "mekom ha'aron einah min hamidah"?  That's an open
breach of the laws of ordinary topology; is there some fancy Einsteinian
formula that can explain this without resorting to "Hashem is not bound
by anything"?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

RSamuel Svarc wrote

>>
The P'nei Yehoshua already states clearly in his
hagdama, "Ki rov d'rush rochok min haemes k'rchok mizrach m'marriv". So,
yes, drush *is* usually a game, useful more for identifying where the
darshan is holding then a legitimate form of Pardes (Pshat, Remez, Drush,
Sod - The four frameworks in which the Torah is to be understood). However,
when the darshan is a known quantity, like the Chasam Sofer, who, as you so
cogently point out, is known as a tremendous posek with authoritative
tshuthos, then his drush is qualitatively on a different level then a plain
plebian's.

>>

Since almost all chachmei Yisrael and baalei hamesorah engaged in drush,
from the time of the tannaim and amoraim until now, there is surely 
tremendous body of homiletics which is of great value; it is fair to
believe that the g'dolim were not wasting their time playing games, but
were engaging in a valuable aspect of limud Torah. In this respect, drush
is like literature: anyone can write something, most of what is written is
rubbish, but there is a great corpus of material which is considered great
literature. Much more than in the case of literature, however, in drush
what matters is not only what is said, but who says it. 

"k'rchok mizrach m'marriv"... 
Hashta d'ata l'yadi, eima bei milta. 
This phrase appears in T'hillim (103), and speaks of our sins separating us
from HKBH as far as East is from West (not pshat in the pasuk, but can be
worked into it). One of the chassidic masters asked his chassidim how far
East is from West, and they said that of course the whole world is between
East and West. The rebbe said that when one is facing east, all he has to
do is turn around and he is facing west; one may be far removed from HKBH,
but t'shuva has the power to turn the person around so that he is facing
the schechina.

Saul Mashbaum
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One more source is the Chazon Ish Yoreh Deah 72:2 and 72:9.

R' Micha Berger wrote:
<The AhS, for example, had to be speaking of metal-backed currency,
not fiat currency. I don't know everyone you quote, but we could
<eliminate the majority of the list.

I am not so sure. In any case the contemporary seforim such as the
Bris Yehuda, etc. (take any modern halacha sefer on hilchos Ribis
written in the last 30 years) all cite these sources (AHS, Chasam
Sofer, etc.) with respect to money nowadays( which is fiat money), so
they clearly hold that those opinions apply to fiat money as well.

CM comments: (previously)

I suspect that women can not testify because of a gezairas hakasuv (see
Shovuos 30a) and not as the result of some rational sevara (If the
meforshim ascribe a rationale, perhaps someone could point it out). 

-------------------------------------



I asked our magid shiur at daf yomi if he new of any source for a sevara
why nashim can not testify. He directed me to the following Chezkuni in
Gen. 18:15 quoting a Yalkut Shimoni:
Vatekachesh Sarah Laimor: Mikan shehanashim pesulos l'aidus, lefi shemekachshos mipnai hayiroh.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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try these:
See Shu"t Rav Pa'alim 2, OC:30, cited in Rav Simcha Levi and Rav Shaul
Reichenberg, Mishpatei Eretz: Orlah Lehalachah Ulema'aseh (5757), 221-226.
See also Kaf HaChaim 203:13; Yechave Da'at 4:52; Rav Mordechai Eliyahu,
"Papaya: Tree or Vegetable?" [Hebrew], Techumin 7 (5747): 88-93, and
Alexander Aryeh Mandelbaum, Vezot Haberachah (5761), 375-6.


Josh Skolnick wrote:

> I heard that there is a discussion regarding what bracha you make on 
> papya.  Does anyone have the sources that I should look into to 
> understand what the discussion is?
>  
> Yosef Skolnick
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Avodah mailing list
>Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
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>  
>
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On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:49:31AM -0400, hankman wrote:
: I asked our magid shiur at daf yomi if he new of any source for a sevara
: why nashim can not testify. He directed me to the following Chezkuni in
: Gen. 18:15 quoting a Yalkut Shimoni:
: Vatekachesh Sarah Laimor: Mikan shehanashim pesulos l'aidus, lefi
: shemekachshos mipnai hayiroh.

I think in general, issues that make it difficult for the dayanim to
asses the derishah vechaqira invalidate eidus. Which follows directly
from the gezeiras hakasuv -- the exclusion from eidus is implied by the
exclusion from serving as dayanim.

This gives a general rule that also explains why Moshe rabbainu couldn't
give eidus about Aharon. It's not a lack of ne'emanus. It's an inability
to know the relationship well enough to separate objective fact from
emotionally colored perception of it.

Getting back to the original topic...

Women can give eidus -- wherever eid echad can, which is also wherever
we can use evidence.

And to reiterate a point I couldn't "sell" in the past -- I think the
overwhelming majority of cases were resolved on this plane. Given the
need to protect society from murderers, and the difficulty in meting
out dinei nefashos, don't you think most murderers would end up in jail?

You only need 2 eidim for eidei qiyum (eg qiddishin), to outnumber the
ba'al din in a CM case (but the ba'al din can outtrump the eid echad
with his own or with a shavu'ah), or oneshim.

These are a minority of cases BD must face! (The first category not
even being a court case.) Do you think they did nothing? Or do you think
that if 5 women or evidence make it obvious the guy is really a danger
to society (or their property), the guy would be locked up?

I would be shocked to think BD did not routinely protect society this
way.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
micha@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 04:55:10PM -0400, Joseph C. Kaplan wrote:
: Why is the exclusion of probative evidence because it was obtained
: illegally any worse than excluding probative evidence because it is
: being proffered by a woman?

In US law, a person can rely on the 5th ammendment, and refuse to answer
a question that would incriminate himself. In halakhah, even if he says
something incriminatory, we aren't meqabelim. Even palginan dibura!

One sevara could be parallel to throwing out evidence. We don't allow
the eidus because we don't want to tempt baalei din (or kangaroo courts)
into blackmailing people into pleading guilty.

A sevara that appeals to me more relates to the post I just sent out. If
a qarov's eidus can't really be understood by dayanim, and adam qarov
eitzel atzmo, how can we possibly check the veracity of self-testimony?

And yet: shavya alei chatikha de'isura. It's only WRT personal guilt
that eidus is ignored.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
micha@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 09:01:26PM -0500, Michael Kopinsky wrote:
: In Alei Shur, Chelek Beis, Maareches Hamussar Perek Aleph, Rav Wolbe goes
: through several things of what mussar is not. Mussar is not philosophy,
: mussar is not "Jewish thought", mussar is not

Sidenote: In RSW's language "hashkafah" is a bad thing. 

In AS II ch 13 <http://www.aishdas.org/as/translations/as_lm13.pdf>
(my translation with some explanation of buzzwords at
<http://www.aishdas.org/as/translations/as.shtml#lm13a>), the first
pitfall to learning mussar that RYS tells you to avoid is "hashkafas
olam" and "ra'ayonos".

Hashkafah is defined in ch. 1 as looking over (as per the literal word)
the world, life and oneself, and deciding one's place in it. As opposed
to deriving these truths from the Torah -- even if he reaches the same
conclusions.

Ra'ayonos are similarly ends-directed, bringing your desired results
with you to the study of the text, but this is about creativity in
Torah study. One has conclusions in mind of how the Torah ought to be,
and works what he learns to fit those preconceived notions.

RSW has no problem with machashavah when drawn *from* one's learning, but
it's still not mussar.

Mussar (with a lower case "m" if it were mid-sentence, as opposed to
Tenu'as haMussar's full weltanschaunng) is the quest to become the person 
the Torah calls upon you to be. In
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2008/01/what-is-mussar.shtml> I address the
question at length. But beqitzur, mussar is anything that addresses at
least one of these goals:

1- Fulfilling hilkhos Dei'os
2- Being able to make the right decisions so as to be able to better
   follow halakhah
3- The pursuit of sheimus ha'adam as it underlies halakhah

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
micha@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
>
> How do they deal with "mekom ha'aron einah min hamidah"?  That's an open
> breach of the laws of ordinary topology; is there some fancy Einsteinian
> formula that can explain this without resorting to "Hashem is not bound
> by anything"?


There's an essay in _Encounter: Essays on Torah and Modern Life_ (published
by AOJS) that makes precisely this observation, that the anomalous
dimensional effects of exceptionally high levels of kedusha manifested in
halachos throughout Shas appear to be strangely analogous to the effects of
exceptionally high velocities described by the special theory of
relativity.  On my blog, I summarized a few of the points that the author
made.

http://haprozdor.blogspot.com/2008/02/dimensional-oddities-in-mishka
n.html

Joshua Meisner
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Bottom line is that if an interpretation of a derashah is a chiddush
of an acharon, it carries the gravitas of the acharon. One needs to be
aware that the position can't be backed by the gemara and in many cases
is not the intent of the gemara. Nu, an acharon bleibt an acharon. But
one needs to be on guard and not confuse use of a Chazal to illustrate
a pointwith Chazal themselves. (And not get distracted by someone using
the word "game".)

BTW, perhaps the correct answer to the da'ah vs ra'ah question inheres
in De'uel vs Re'uel. (Bamidbar 1:15, Gad's nasi is ELyasaf ben De'uel;
2:15, it's ben Re'uel.) What does it mean when lir'os and lada'as blur
to the point of being indistinguishable?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
micha@aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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