Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 249

Wed, 09 Jul 2008

• 1. Kaddish where there is no chiyuv (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Modim D'Rabbanan (Harry Weiss)
• 3. Re: Are any women in Tanach described as loving their husbands? (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Can you steal/damage to prevent an autopsy? (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: Can you steal/damage to prevent an autopsy? (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 6. Re: Did Tziporah say Lashon Hara? (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 7. Re: Torah Riddle (Samuel Svarc)
• 8. Re: Modim D'Rabbanan (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 9. Re: T'uM (Richard Wolpoe)
• 10. Fiat Money & Halachah (Richard Wolpoe)
• 11. Re: Can you steal/damage to prevent an autopsy? (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Modim D'Rabbanan (Zev Sero)

S"A O"C 132:2 - Rama says to say a kaddish after aleinu even where there
is no chiyuv. Recently I was told by a friend that his Rav said this is
lav davka and really meant the final kaddish which is now after shir
shel yom. I vaguely remember hearing bshem R' YBS that the kaddish after
aleinu is the "real" concluding kaddish (vs. kaddish shalem)

 what are the actual practices out there? Any other  insights on the
above?

KT
Joel Rich

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> From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@kayescholer.com>
>
>
>
> In Avodah Digest V25#245, RAK asked:
>> Two questions were raised this evening about the Modim D'Rabbanan
> recited by the kehillah during the repetition of the Amidah.
>> (1) As in many shuls, on the wall hangs a poster of the Modim
> D'Rabbanan. However, the text of the poster differs by one word from the 
> text in all of the siddurim. Where the siddurim read 
> "us-kay-me-nu"/"ut-kay-me-nu" the poster reads 
> "us-cha-ne-nu"/"ut-cha-ne-nu." The issue came up, in part, because 
> apparently the Daf Yomi just learned Daf Mem, Amud Alef of Sotah, where 
> this prayer is discussed--and the text of the Gemara is the text of the 
> poster and not the siddurim. So, does anyone know why our siddurim 
> differ from the posters and the Gemara, and how this came about? < Good 
> Q (and NB that the text of your siddur likely doesn't include

There are also a few other differences.  Does anyone have access to a 
Bucharan siddur.  The Shlomoff family who put out these posters AFAIK are 
Bucharans so that may be their nussach.




>

Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@panix.com

 
 
From: "M Cohen" _mcohen@touchlogic.com_ (mailto:mcohen@touchlogic.com) 

>>I  get the impression from the general tone of the  gemoras
(kesuvos/yevamos/sotah/etc) that
the nature of the husband/wife  relationship (in those days) was more
'business-like'...


...I  don't see a tone of the modern vision of marriage of
..love forever no matter  what / until death do us part /etc

Mordechai  Cohen



>>>>>
Marriage has always had, and still has, a definite aspect of being a  
business contract, where two people agree to exchange goods and services in ways  
that benefit each of them.  However love also has always been part of  marriage.  
There's the famous story (I'm pretty sure in the  Talmud) of the couple who 
decided to divorce because they had been married  for ten years without 
children, and the husband told the wife to take anything  she wanted from his home 
and take it back to her father's home.  She  got her husband drunk and had her 
servants carry /him/ to her father's  home.  After that the rabbis ruled that t
hey did not have to get  divorced. A very poignant story.  Also very 
reassuring to people who  suffer from infertility (as I did for eleven years) and do 
not want to get  divorced.  The reason that the couple did not have to get  
divorced IIUC was precisely that they loved each other, which made  their marriage 
a positive good in G-d's eyes even without children.  

 


--Toby Katz
=============

President Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead  with the 
deployment of Cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly ?  after 
getting himself a bigger stick.  --Mark Steyn




**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for 
fuel-efficient used cars.      (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
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It is obvious as Marty points out that one cannot cause damage to
a third party to prevent any aveirah (including autopsies) except in
the case of pikuach nefesh.

Can one cause damage to the perpertrator to prevent him from
doing an aveirah when no pikuach nefesh is involved?

Eli Turkel

> Can one cause damage to the perpertrator to prevent him from
> doing an aveirah when no pikuach nefesh is involved?

Avrohom Avinu and Terach's idols. 

KT,
MYG

On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:21:01 -0400
"Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com> wrote:

> R' YG:
> > Well, the Halachah there is that while a woman may object to her husband
> > taking a job that would result in the diminution of her Onah, there's
> > an explicit exception for a Tayal becoming a Talmid Hacham, so one
> > could argue that a would be prophet has a similar dispensation.  On the
> > other hand, see Pis'hei Teshuvah (75:2 - 3).
> 
> And see also Maharitz Chiyus on Berachos 27b.

I checked it; he cites the same Ya'aros Dvash (Rav Yonasan Eibushutz)
 that Pis'hei Teshuvah cites.

> MYG

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

> From: Dov Ber <ydamyb@gmail.com>
>
> Samuel Svarc asks:
> >>
> How can one have a Tumas meis that is m'tamah b'ohel, b'masa, but not
> b'maga?
> <<
> 
> Molei tarvood rekev. Chulin 126b.

Very good! Right in one! If you don't mind my asking, when did you last
learn this? (I've asked many TC'm here in Lakewood, and only one, a Dayan
and Cohen, knew the answer.)

KT,
MSS

R' Alan Krinsky asked:
> As in many shuls, on the wall hangs a poster of the Modim
> D'Rabbanan. However, the text of the poster differs by one
> word from the text in all of the siddurim. Where the
> siddurim read "us-kay-me-nu"/"ut-kay-me-nu" the poster
> reads "us-cha-ne-nu"/"ut-cha-ne-nu."

I was stunned to read this, but on reflection I think it might explain why
I've had trouble memorizing this short paragraph; I always get lost in the
middle, and perhaps this is why. I thank you, and will try to use the Kuf
word from now on, as in my siddur.

But I still wanted to check out these claims. I turns out that the Nusach
Ashkenaz shul where I davend this morning has four Modim posters. Three of
them had the Kuf word, and one had the Ches word.

(Statistics nerds, please note: One might be tempted to say that I saw a
mere 25% Ches rate, but two of the three Kuf posters were clearly mere
enlargements from siddurim, with no added art. The other two posters were
clearly designed as pretty posters for hanging in shul, and those two
posters yielded one each for the Kuf and Ches texts, a 50% rate.)

Another thing to check is RAK's claim that "all" siddurim use the Kuf word.
I looked in several siddurim, both Nusach Ashkenaz and Nusach Sfard, and
indeed, the Kuf appeared in all of them. HOWEVER, of the two Edot Hamizrach
siddurim I own (Rinat Yisrael and Imrei Fee), BOTH use the Ches word: "ken
t'chayenu ut'chanenu".

So now I think the question can be rephrased to read: Why is it that so many of the posters seen by RAK use the Edot Hamizrach text?

Here's my guess what the answer might be: People who purchase these posters
are unaware of the nusach difference, and so they choose these posters with
other criteria in mind. The people who design the posters may or may not be
aware of the difference, but would generally use their personal nusach in
any case.

This is not an unusual situation. When people shop for an Ushpizin poster
for their sukkah, how many people look to see where the designer placed
Yosef Hatzadik? (Nusach Ashkenaz puts him at #4, Nusach Sfard at #6.) Ditto
for Hagadas, where these two nuschaos arrange Hallel differently.

Akiva Miller

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.

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Click here for great computer networking solutions!
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On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

> Richard Wolpoe wrote:
>
>   From a strictly puritanical vewi once the US governmetn stopped paying
>> gold or silver for paper miny it is ARGUABKLE that all w have is US Scrip
>> instead of Golden Acres Scrip.
>>
>
> No, it isn't arguable.  It's nonsense.


So how did Golden Acres get around the issue of Muktzeh with scrip? What
about  those rabbis who instituted this procedure?  Waht did they gain?

When is shava kessef kessef?

Can you be meqadeis an isha wiht:

   1. coins?
   2. papaer money?
   3. checks?
   4. amusement park tokens?
   5. IOU's
   6. Promissory notes?

Is a shtar chov the same as money because it has value?  I don't think so!
What if someone burns a shtar chov, does that release the debt?

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Everyone ASSUMES because something IS therefore it is valid.
Fiat money is essentially a 20th Century phenomenon. It is not claer to me
that fiat money has the halachic status of Money.
think of it tis way, do stock options have the same function as stock?  Well
both have value and are traded onteh market, but stock options offer ZERO
ownership in the corporation, no dividends, and no right to vote. So there
is a legal distinction, albeit investors might not care.

Fiat money is lgeal tender in the USA NOW, but that dos nto mean th Talmud
would cosntrue it so, unless someone can muster some soures to state
otherwise.

Fiat money, like life insruance is an astraction. Most people deal with
abstractions every day. But some posqim HAVE objected to abstractions such
as selling Hametz before Passover.  Some abstractions are not seen as
Halachially viable across the board. And Many of my Yekishe Qehila felt that
it was one big ha'arama anyway, no matter how much I tried to show it as an
abstraction like life insturance.

I recoomend googling Fiar money and reading this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency




-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
>> Can one cause damage to the perpertrator to prevent him from
>> doing an aveirah when no pikuach nefesh is involved?

> Avrohom Avinu and Terach's idols. 

Kol ha'omed lisaref kesaruf dami, so he did no damage.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
 
> I looked in several siddurim, both Nusach Ashkenaz and Nusach Sfard,
> and indeed, the Kuf appeared in all of them. HOWEVER, of the two Edot
> Hamizrach siddurim I own (Rinat Yisrael and Imrei Fee), BOTH use the
> Ches word: "ken t'chayenu ut'chanenu".

Machzor Livorno (Italian nusach) has ut'chanenu, and several other
differences from the standard Ashkenaz/Sfard nusach.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas


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