Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 245

Mon, 07 Jul 2008

• 1. Modim D'Rabbanan (Alan Krinsky)
• 2. Re: T'uM (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Balak "Blessing or Curse" (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Re: T'uM (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Cohen Gadol, Pubescent Girl & Rav Kook (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Modim D'Rabbanan (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Lechem Mishnah (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Re: TIDE and Austritt (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Science and Truth (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: R' Samson Raphael Hirsch and the Imrei Emes (Gerrer Rebbe) (Micha Berger)

Two questions were raised this evening about the Modim D'Rabbanan 
recited by the kehillah during the repetition of the Amidah.

(1) As in many shuls, on the wall hangs a poster of the Modim 
D'Rabbanan. However, the text of the poster differs by one word from 
the text in all of the siddurim. Where the siddurim read 
"us-kay-me-nu"/"ut-kay-me-nu" the poster reads 
"us-cha-ne-nu"/"ut-cha-ne-nu." The issue came up, in part, because 
apparently the Daf Yomi just learned Daf Mem, Amud Alef of Sotah, 
where this prayer is discussed--and the text of the Gemara is the 
text of the poster and not the siddurim. So, does anyone know why our 
siddurim differ from the posters and the Gemara, and how this came about?

(2) Now that we are on the topic, the question was raised why we say 
this prayer at all? Or, rather, why only this prayer? Why is there 
not a parallel D'Rabbanan prayer for any or all of the other brachos 
during the repetition of the Amidah? Why should the congregation not 
respond to the other brachos, such as for refuah or geulah or shalom?

If anyone has any information or idea on these questions, I will 
happily relay them to the minyan.

Alan

Alan Krinsky
adkrinsky@netzero.net
Achrayus: http://alankrinsky.blogspot.com/
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On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

>
> Take another example: fiat money.  All of our money today, notes as
> well as coins, gets its value only from the fact that the law says it
> has value, and we all agree to pretend that it does.  There is a
> discussion in halacha (I recall seeing a teshuva on this from the
> Chasam Sofer) over whether such money can be used for kiddushin,
> pidyon haben, chilul maaser sheni, etc., and various distinctions
> that can be drawn between these different purposes.  But let's take
> the most machmir opinion, and say that fiat money is completely
> worthless al pi halacha, chaspa be'alma; even that opinion would
> agree that it's valid for paying debts, that if Avi had paid M&B
> with the local currency he would no longer owe them anything, even
> if they demanded payment in silver, and even if the next day the
> currency collapsed into worthlessness.  Because those are the terms
> on which people do business, unless they explicitly specify otherwise.
>
>
> --
> Zev Sero
>

Tangentially, this has implications for Hilchos Muktzeh on Shabbos
E.G. if I have a bossis for muktzeh and non-muktzeh

   1. The non-muktzeh is a $5.00 Hallah
   2. The Muktzeh is a  $10.00 Gold coin

Then the halacha is a no-brainer, i.e. the money is the ikkar and the bossis
is muktzehbecause the non-muktzeh is bottel..

But I have questioned whether $10.00 of our paper money as really being
worth more than the $5.00 Hallah.

Think of a check book. The printed value of balnak checks might be only
about $4.00, but you can USE it to create checks worth thousands of dollars.


Paper Money is like pre-written checks. It has no intrinsice value, other
than the paper and the artwork, etc.  This throws a big winkle -as I see it
- in the laws of bossis.  Is a $10.00 bill worth really worth $10.00 or it
is just like a $10.00 check?  is it intrinscially worth more than a Hallah
at half the face value?

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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One of the rarities in the Bible is the Almighty who spoke directly to  
Balaam.  Balaam was evil and had his own agenda which shut out the  
reality of such awesome communication with God. Balaam only cared  
about himself and was the paradigm of selfishness. Our father, Abraham  
was able to perceive God because of his humility, even though all  
those around Abraham were idolators. Conversely, Balaam had what  
everyone would dream of -- an open communication with God, but in  
spite of that, he was not able to perceive the reality and truth of  
what it was that God expected.

The Talmud (Taanis 20a) says that it is better to be chastised by one  
who does so with love and concern, such as the prophet Achiyahu, the  
Shilonite (1 Kings 14:10-16) than to be praised by one who hates, such  
as Balaam.

May all the blessings we give a receive be sincere and from the heart.

rw
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On Fri, Jul 04, 2008 at 07:12:17PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: Exactly.  Once they know that it's a lost cause they must stop trading.
: But by the same token, *until* they know that, while they still think
: there's a chance they can turn the business around, they must *not*
: stop trading, because that would be unfair to their existing creditors.

Obviously, since Avi the men's clothing storeowner is a stand-in for a
friend of mine, I know details I can't really share without someone on
list or another who might know him (Jewish Geography) figuring out who I
mean. (The person who was about to by the "clothing store" who was left
to their own resources to find out how much debt the business was in is
also a friend.)

Let's just say the shirts M&S didn't get paid for were liquidated,
rather than returned to the manufacturer. Not to pay other debts --
no outstanding debts (to speak of) were paid. It's not exactly what
happened, but the nearest equivalent given the change of industry between
my fictional case and the real one.

So, given that we can't really discussed what happened, how do we
proceed from here? Well, I can continue throwing out "but what ifs",
and we could discuss those. Or, we limit the discussion the issue that
moved the Areivim discussion here. Or both, as two threads.


But just to address what I think is the core philosophical issue in
this post:

RZS, in a number of discussions, took the position that since the parties
involved knew the rules they were playing by, one party has no moral
duty to the other beyond those rules. If workers come to this country
illegally and know they will be paid less than anyone else and given
work they would never do, then it's okay to do so to them. They agreed
to it. (I disagree that they knew what they were getting themselves into,
I believe that the employer in question was so far out of line with norms
that people didn't expect what they got. I also do not think that it's
so easy for them to get out, but that's a different story.)

Or in this case, since doing business with an LLC means consciously
taking on that risk, I as an LLC owner have no duty, not even to another
ben Yisrael, to minimize or cushion that risk.

Such an attitude would basically eliminate the reach of QYTD (Qedoshim
tihyu, ve'asisa haYashar vehaTov, vehalakhta bidrakhav) style mitzvos
from Choshein Mishpat.

In contrast to Rav's pesaq that Rava bar R' Huna had to not only return
the porters' cloaks and pay them even though they were to blame for the
breakage of the barrels they were to carry. RbRH got no hana'ah from
the job and still was expected to pay! Nu, his lifnim mishuras hadin
is going to be on a different madreiga than mine, but still, to say I
have no duties beyond the terms of the agreement (explicit or implied)
is beyond my ken.

...
: I think it must be presumed that, whether or not it was objectively
: reasonable, he was acting in good faith; if he had already concluded
: there was no hope, why would he have continued to put time and effort
: into running it?   Why would he not have closed it a week earlier and
: saved himself the work, not to mention the agmas nefesh?

This is just bad psychology. Few people quit the sinking ship until they
have the next business to go into.

...
: I don't think it matters whether the LLC has a "real" existence under
: halacha.  Secular law must speak of a corporate veil and of piercing it
: (which AFAIK is only ever done in the case of bad faith), because in
: secular law a company really is a separate person...

I think you should read the list of shitos in the article I already
pointed the chevrah to. The notion that the secular contract is simply
an agreement to terms, regardless of whether the sevara behind those
terms involves constructs halakhah lacks, is one possibility.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
micha@aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous

On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 09:31:27AM +0300, Yaacov Shulman wrote:
: I'm not arguing, by the way, that darkei noam always has the last word. I am
: wondering why, here, it doesn't seem to have any word.

Because there is no other way to accomodate the chiyuv deOraisa as
understood. You presume that there are other viable pesaqim to the
kohein having a wife with whom he consummated the relationship who was
young enough to have all of her besulim. I would flip your question
around, and use it as a proof that there is not.

Jumping back a bit so that I could put this next quote next to its
supporting statement:
: Basically, he states that many morally-problematical teachings that appear
: in the Torah are "stumblingblocks," and that it is our role to interpret
: them, even against the simple meaning that they present.
...

: The Liberated Light
...
: This love must withstand very difficult challenges.  It must overcome many
: contradictions, which are scattered like boulders upon which you may
: stumble.  These are found in isolated Torah statements, in the superficial
: aspect of some Torah laws, and in a multitude of points of view that stem
: from the constriction within the revealed aspect of the Torah and the
: national ethical sense.
...
: Orot Hakodesh III, p. 318

The translator renders it "superficial aspects" that might seem to
contradict. This is quite different in substance to your claim that "it
is our role to interpret them, even against the simple meaning that they
present." Getting beyond the superficial doesn't necessitate new
interpretation. It includes much further study of the old.

To close with RAYK's words of caution (emphasis mine):
: All this requires the effort of a great spirit: HOW TO MAINTAIN THESE
: CONDUITS WHERE THEY STAND, and yet draw the waters of kindness in their
: original purity and breadth.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
micha@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore

 



        (2) Now that we are on the topic, the question was raised why we
say this prayer at all? Or, rather, why only this prayer? Why is there
not a parallel D'Rabbanan prayer for any or all of the other brachos
during the repetition of the Amidah? Why should the congregation not
respond to the other brachos, such as for refuah or geulah or shalom?
        
        If anyone has any information or idea on these questions, I will
happily relay them to the minyan.
        
        Alan
        
         =================
        usual answer is that one can't/shouldn't have a shaliach say
thanks for you.
        KT
        Joel Rich  <http://alankrinsky.blogspot.com/> 

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Any sources as to whether 2 pieces of man fell on erev yom tov as well
as erev shabbat?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 12:56:50AM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
: TIDE requires Austritt. If one recognizes something other than Torah then
: the Torah in TIDE is not reigning supreme.

: As for the "possibility of cooperation on non-Torah matters", this is
: something that needs more detail to be answered intelligently. Oh' and TIDE
: doesn't recognize any "Non-Torah matters", as all of DE is part of the
: rubric on which Torah must be the master of.

How does this argument exclude R (or, as RRW pointed out, even
non-Austritt O), but not Schiller? Clearly RSRH divided the world into
at least three: Torah, DE, and things one must shun. Thus there is DE
or potential DE, things that could serve Torah IF one chooses to give
them the Torah's form. Survival of Jews would seem to qualify.

:> RYBS's midpoint answer also insists on a society in which Torah reigns
:> supreme. However, it does so without cutting themselves off from the
:> non-observant world in matters in which that allegiance isn't threatened.

: I'm no expert on RYBS, so no comment.

He sought a way to work together on common cause without implying any
religious legitimacy. Rather than total exclusion, he divided pragmatic
survival questions from religious ones.

Would the Austritt community not use records of who is a Tay Sachs carrier
because the population was tested under a Federation program? (Okay, by
picking an extreme case I run potentially afoul of piquach nefesh issues.)

...
: The beauty of RSRH's torah is that he didn't address certain situations and
: build things on them. He built edifices of thought based on what the Torah
: says, and with that addressed situations. So the answer is: No. Austritt is
: not bound to one particular situation but rather that nothing may reduce
: Torah's dominion...

What does this mean? How does one have a pesaq that is NOT a function
of the metzi'us at hand? Yes, there are ideals. But what were they? What
feature of German R and the Gemeinde was the subject of Austritt's
ideal? And does it still exist today.

RnTK:
: > : I admit that that whole last paragraph has no source other than my gut
: > : feeling, based on the emanations of penumbras from the corpus of
: > : Hirsch's writings.

Me:
: > WADR, though, you already "admitted" a few weeks backthat your view
: > of TiDE is based on the assumption that your father (note to newbies:
: > RNBulman) "channeled" RSRH. OTOH, I can not picture someone of your
: > gather's stature adopting someone else's hashkafah wholesale, with no
: > personalization.

: So which points do you think RNB personalized, and what is your evidence for
: those points? Lacking those, it appears that your intent is more to
: disqualify RTK from basically ever voicing an opinion on TIDE (as opposed to
: just straight quoting from RSRH), with the handy rebuttal, "That's RNB not
: TIDE".

The chareidi world as a whole toned down TiDE, IMHO. Since RnTK wrote
that she believes her father's TiDE is RSRH's exactly, and I disagree,
anything she says based on emanations of penumbras won't convince me.
Yes, my intent is to disqualify RnTK's unsourced opinions of TiDE in
the kinds of issues where R' Danziger and R' Elias disagree.

: Even when two separate people (one of whom never heard RNB) give essentially
: the same answer? Something is compelling, but I think it's more your desire
: to find Austritt amenable to certain participations with non-O communities.

I have no need to find Austritt amenable to anything. My greatgrandfather
was a Gemenider rav in Frankfurt. See his Divrei Shalom veEmes
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/1559> a 66 page volley in a battle with R'
Breuer over the eruv. (Is a city today mefulash? Can mechalelei Shabbos
effectively be made to rely on the eiruv without agreeing to the need
in having one? Etc...) RSRH's Austritt has little emotional hold on me.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
micha@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore

On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 12:56:14PM -0400, Rich, R Joel replied to RAMiller:
:> Of the four factors mentioned, that leaves "tradition". I'd say that
:> anything based on a clear *Revelation* is the only absolute in this
:> discussion, and even there, it is reliable only to the extent that one
:> can trust himself to have understood the Revelation correctly. 

: Perhaps for the recipient, what about their descendants?

Well, the Kuzari invokes the presence of a tradition. IMHO, it doesn't
work too well until after you already bought into the notion of being
a part of the Jewish people which as a corporate entity knows something.

I would instead object to an earlier objection RAM's post:
> It seems to me that anything based on observation might be flawed because
> of an incomplete observation. Anything based on reasoning might be flawed
> because of faulty reasoning. Anything based on intuition might be flawed
> because it is quite possibly mere guesswork.

I think that the line, "More than the Jews have kept the Shabbos,
the Shabbos has kept the Jews" is more than a truism, it's an
epistomological reality. Nothing kept Judaism alive more than the
experience of Shabbos. And although our performance is imperfect, and
thus our observation incomplete, we manage to glimpse something that is
convincing enough for most of us.

This is the answer our ancestors amazingly intuited when they said
na'aseh before nishmah. The only thing that can be relied upon to be
heard is the results of the asiyah.

Is it 100% proof? There is no such thing. We could be insane, and falling
for something that sane minds would realize is incoherent. That's a
theoretical abstraction that only would have meaning if we had perfect
minds no less complex than all potential realities. Certain enough so
as to make no difference? Definitely.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
micha@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 11:42:17PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: > In Madreigas haAdam (first essay), the Alter of Novhardok explains the
: > need for mussar...
: > RYS had to come up with a formal methodology for teaching that which
: > until then people were learning by osmosis. That methodolgy to create
: > the person our environment should have made us is Mussar.

: > I think therefore the Alter of Novhardok would answer RRW with a
: > resounding "definitely". But cultures dissolve, and then all you're left
: > with is books and techniques to try to mold who you are.
...
: I did not mean to attack Mussar, I meant to question the efficacy of READING
: or LEARNING mussar from a sefer. It works MUCH better when I society
: practices it.

As I already replied, I think they would have agreed. But you do not
have that much control over your environment. What you're presenting
as an open choice generally isn't.

: You can learn techniques from a Sefer, how to execute something better, but
: I have rarely seen Mussar "book" learning do that much good..

The second issue is that Mussar isn't studying books.

Hispa'alus: Look how REED describes in MmE vol I how to learn Mussar.
Mesilas Yesharim would be studied, repeated, absorbed, innovated, applied
to one's life at a rate of a couple of lines per day with 20 minutes to
a half an hour dedicated to the excercise. Their goal wasn't to study
or learn the book, but to create an emotional bond and unity with it.

Cheshbon haNefesh: They kept track of their middos and how they were
using them daily. Just making that process conscience does much for
tiqun hammidos that goes well beyond learning sefarim.

Similarly: Qabbalos and pe'ulos, hibonenus, etc...

The yeshivishification of Mussar, so that it is reduced to 15 min with
a book (and the book is generally *hilkhos* LH) rather than investing
time to actively work on oneself, means that few of us have ever seen
whether or not Mussar comes close to learning one's attitudes correctly
to begin with.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
micha@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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