Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 229

Tue, 24 Jun 2008

• 1. Re: Do Not Separate Yourself and Do Not Believe in Yourself (for a while)... (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Halakhah and compulsion (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Halakhah and compulsion (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Kabbalah vs Scholasticism (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: An old Pshat and a Question About Milchig on Shavuos (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Do Not Separate Yourself and Do Not Believe in Yourself (for a while) (T613K@aol.com)
• 7. Re: Heter mechira (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 8. Heroes, Victims and Kedoshim (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 9. R' Samson Raphael Hirsch and the Imrei Emes (Gerrer Rebbe) (T613K@aol.com)
• 10. Re: Heter mechira (Zev Sero)
• 11. Dealing with Perpetrators (Micha Berger)

Cantor Wolberg wrote:

> This is very curious. We are always taught to believe in ourselves.

Who teaches us that?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 02:21pm EDT, I forwarded:
: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:11:03 +0300
: From: Yeshivat Har Etzion <office@etzion.org.il>
: Subject: SICHOT68 -36: Parashat Shelach
...
:                           Parashat SHELACH
:                 SICHA OF HARAV YEHUDA AMITAL SHLIT"A
...
:                          An Unready Generation
:                        Summarized by Shaul Barth
:                        Translated by Kaeren Fish
...
: Rav Kook, in Part I of his Letters (20), explains that sometimes, when
: God sees that Am Yisrael is not worthy of a certain matter, He creates
: a situation where, technically, it is beyond the realm of possibility.
: To the extent that the nation's power or level is deficient, so its
: capability is lacking, and this lack of ability testifies to God's
: Will in this regard. Rav Kook goes on to explain that one of the ways
: in which God does this is through the nation's incapacity to accept the
: matter; citing the law of tokhacha (rebuke) that "it is a mitzva not to
: say words that will not be listened to" (Yevamot 65b), he teaches that
: sometimes the nation is not ready for a certain thing, and therefore
: this matter "will not be listened to" by the nation. This phenomenon in
: itself shows that God does not yet want this thing to come about because
: the generation is not yet worthy of it. Such obstacles are evidence of
: God's supreme Will at such times.
...
: Copyright (c) 2008 Yeshivat Har Etzion All Rights Reserved.

Would RAYK say that we are not worthy of mechiyas Amaleiq, and therefore
Hashem put it beyond the realm of possbility? I know I'm not worthy
of understanding its morality, and can not picture being capable of
nipeitz es ollayikh el hasela (even if that pasuq is about a different
group of Esav's children, it illustrates my problem) Or would he give
another reason?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 02:21pm EDT, I forwarded:
: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:11:03 +0300
: From: Yeshivat Har Etzion <office@etzion.org.il>
: Subject: SICHOT68 -36: Parashat Shelach
...
:                           Parashat SHELACH
:                 SICHA OF HARAV YEHUDA AMITAL SHLIT"A
...
:                          An Unready Generation
:                        Summarized by Shaul Barth
:                        Translated by Kaeren Fish
...
: Rav Kook, in Part I of his Letters (20), explains that sometimes, when
: God sees that Am Yisrael is not worthy of a certain matter, He creates
: a situation where, technically, it is beyond the realm of possibility.
: To the extent that the nation's power or level is deficient, so its
: capability is lacking, and this lack of ability testifies to God's
: Will in this regard. Rav Kook goes on to explain that one of the ways
: in which God does this is through the nation's incapacity to accept the
: matter; citing the law of tokhacha (rebuke) that "it is a mitzva not to
: say words that will not be listened to" (Yevamot 65b), he teaches that
: sometimes the nation is not ready for a certain thing, and therefore
: this matter "will not be listened to" by the nation. This phenomenon in
: itself shows that God does not yet want this thing to come about because
: the generation is not yet worthy of it. Such obstacles are evidence of
: God's supreme Will at such times.
...
: Copyright (c) 2008 Yeshivat Har Etzion All Rights Reserved.

Would RAYK say that we are not worthy of mechiyas Amaleiq, and therefore
Hashem put it beyond the realm of possbility? I know I'm not worthy
of understanding its morality, and can not picture being capable of
nipeitz es ollayikh el hasela (even if that pasuq is about a different
group of Esav's children, it illustrates my problem) Or would he give
another reason?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 01:01:55PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : >>>In contrast, the mystic's faith focuses on the incomprehensible.
> ...
> :>Numerous chassidishe maiselakh including the am haaretz who asks HQBH to
> :>weave his alef-beis into tefillos and the shepherd-boy playing his fluit.
> 
> : Where do you see mysticism in these stories?
> 
> They clearly laud the uncromprehended faith, and are used to teach even
> those who have more comprehension that the value is in the emunah peshutah
> in something incomprehensible. (I left my translation in the quoted text
> to highlight the correspondence.)

But they're about what the am ha'aretz can achieve ba'asher hu sham;
not about deliberately seeking such ignorance.  The Baal Shem Tov came
to remind the TC that the AH is also a yid, not to tell the AH that he
shouldn't bother trying to become a TC if he can, and certainly not to
tell the TC to deliberately forget his learning and emulate the AH.

These stories demonstrate that rachmana liba ba'i, just like the
medrash about the poor man contributing his vegetables to coax the rich
man's bull up the stairs of the Har Habayit; nobody would suggest that
next time the rich man shouldn't bother with the bull and should give
some vegetables instead!

I have a feeling that we're not disagreeing, but that I just don't
understand what you wrote.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 12:17:19AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: Indeed "cheit" [as opposed to Avon or pesha] can mean error or missing the
: mark.  The translation of Cheit as sin can often make the text a bit
: harsher.  While we may be held RESPONSIBLE for fixing a heit, we are not
: always "guilty" in the same way one would be in a pesha. Responsible to Fix
: YES. Guilty for error, is perhaps too strong,perhaps obligated to CORRECT an
: erro, obligted for Tikkun [or korban chatas] might be a better understanding
: - more charitable, too.

Can't one be guilty of being insufficiently careful? IOW, anything that
would explain why a shogeig requires a qorbon chatos (note the name!)
would moreso explain the guilt of a misdirected person.

: Don't forget that terms such as chov and Chayyav can mean obligated as wells
: as culpable/liable.

A chov is a deficiency that needs repaying.

A person is inherently incomplete, and thus he has chiyuvim to complete
himself.

An avaryan creates a deficiency in himself, which can then be repaired
through onesh. Although "chiyuv qareis" doesn't work so well to this
definition, if qareis refers to cessation of existence upon death.

: FWIW, a favorite Shabbas Shuva Draswha of mine was to point out that it was
: NOT Adam's "sin" that got him kicked out of Gan Eden, but his lack of
: Teshuva. Same With Sha'ul re: Amaleik. [and perhaps Kayyin re: Hevel, too]

But Sha'ul does say "chatasi" (Shemu'el I 15:24)! Is it the imperfection
of his teshuvah, that Shemu'el required to drag out 11 pesuqim of
excuses first?

I would instead have read the pesuqim to conclude that Sha'ul was
punished simply because that is what motivated the teshuvah. Not that he
was punished for not doing teshuvah, but that he was punished in order
to get the teshuvah out of him. His Father in heaven saying "I'm doing
this for your own good", so to speak. Which is how I would understand
the role of onesh altogether.

Not repayment for sin in a fiscal model, but repair after the sin. Which
ties into what I was saying about the causal connection between sin and
metaphysical impact.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
micha@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

 
 
From: Cantor Wolberg _cantorwolberg@cox.net_ (mailto:cantorwolberg@cox.net) 


>>Very interestingly, Hillel is often quoted with: "Al tifrosh  min  
hatzibbur"  Do not separate yourself from the community.  However, what  
follows immediately is "v'al ta'amin b'atzm'cha ad yom  mos'cha."  Do  
not believe in yourself until the day you  die.

This is very curious. We are always taught to believe in  ourselves.<<
 
>>>>>
Maybe American culture stresses "believe in  yourself" but I don't see where 
in the Torah there is any such  teaching.  The closest I can think of is 
"Yagata umatzasa,  ta'amin."  You must believe that if you put in the effort (to 
learn Torah,  or to keep the mitzvos) that you will have success.  This is not 
at all the  same thing as believing that if you are a tzaddik today, you are 
guaranteed to  always be a tzaddik regardless of what effort you put in in the  
future.




--Toby Katz
=============

President Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead  with the 
deployment of Cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly ?  after 
getting himself a bigger stick.  --Mark Steyn




**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for 
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On Mon, 12 May 2008 07:16:41 -0400
Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

...

> 4. BTW, if the goy takes the chametz and doesn't pay, he can be sued
> for the money, but the chametz is still his.  His ownership doesn't
> depend on his payment.  And in the forms I've seen there's a Jewish

Actually, many Poskim consider a default on payment to be possible
grounds for retroactively annulling a sale.  See, e.g., Nesivos
(190:7), Bah (HM 96:23), Pis'hei Teshuvah (ibid. 2) and Beis Meir (EH
90:9 s.v. Kayamim Be'azmam ... V'hinei Ha'Zarich Iyun She'hiniah Harav
Ha'Maggid ...).

> Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

[Some quotes are from Areivim, with permission.]

On Sun, 4 May 2008 19:53:30 -0400
Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> The Belzer Rebbe concluded that one of the things produced by the
> Holocaust is that it was then possible for a Jew to die al qiddush
> Hashem simply for being a Jew, his existential essence despite his
> personal unobservance. And thus the provided a metaphysical mechanism by
> which we could be brought one step closer to ge'ulah. A new definition
> of Klal Yisrael.

On Tue, 6 May 2008 13:00:15 -0400 (EDT)
"Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> My problem is more philosophical (surprise!). Who are we to dedicate
> learning in their memory? It's like a poor shoemaker donating a dollar
> to help the Rockefellers. The notion that someone who died al qiddush
> Hashem (and we're not even talking of people who lived as tinoqos
> shenishb'u) would need my help in olam haba is a bit of hubris. No?

> -micha

On Wed, 7 May 2008 10:25:04 -0400 (EDT)
"Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> But think about it. We're talking about people shemasru nafsham al
> qidushas Hashem. They died with kaparah, in a state of taharah and
> qedushah. Do you really think any of our zechuyos matter? Do you think
> any of them didn't get the maximum hana'as ziv hashechinah that their
> neshamos are capable of from the moment they died -- or something
> within 11 months later?

On Fri, 9 May 2008 11:45:16 -0400
Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> I had a problem with the notion of doing things lezeikher those who died
> in the Shoah. Presumably dying al qiddush Hashem means entering shamayim
> (to avoid the words "OhB" in the same post as discussing the machloqes
> on how to translate them) in a state of kaparah, biqedushah uvetaharah,
> and the person's soul is at a level of getting all the ziv hasheniah it
> is capable of getting hana'ah from. Certainly more than 11 months later.



I have wondered for many years whether there is *any* classic source
for the notion that one who is killed for being a Jew, as opposed to
one who *voluntarily* gives up his life for God, His Torah, His Mizvos,
or His people, can be said to have died Al Kiddush Hashem.

My friend Yisroel shows me that R. Moshe Bleich raises this
question in an article in Or HaMizrach ("The Hebrew Torah Journal of
the Religious Zionists of America"): it is a commonplace to
automatically call all Jewish victims of the Holocaust "Kedoshim", but
what is the source for this [0]?  R. Shepansky, the editor, is firmly
convinced that the appellation is correct, and he attempts in an
editor's note to provide some sources for this, but I did not find his
arguments convincing.  Neither, apparently, did R. Moshe Bleich, since
he reiterates his dissatisfaction with the convention in a subsequent
issue of the journal, in a note to which R. Shepansky, too, reminds the
reader of his position [1].

And so I throw down the gauntlet; I challenge anyone to provide a
classic, or at the very least pre-twentieth century, source for the
doctrine that being murdered for being a Jew is a sufficient condition
for being considered to have died Al Kiddush HaShem.

[0] 130-131 Nissan-Tammuz 5748 p. 302
[1] 138-139 Nissan-Tammuz 5750 p. 232

> -Micha

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

 
In a message dated 2/14/2008 [the subject line was "Sefer HaChinuch on why  2 
weeks Nidah for a girl and only 1 for a boy"], gershonseif@yahoo.com  writes:

[quoting old TK]:  >>Some people  think that if you say Chazal or Ramban or 
the Sefer Hachinuch were wrong about  some scientific fact, then you are being 
disrespectful to them.  I was  raised with a completely different 
understanding and a different  attitude...<<

R' Gershon Seif: I'm  not surprised by that. Just wondering, did your father 
zt"l ever discuss this  subject with any Rebbes from Ger? I doubt it, but 
please correct me if I'm  wrong. Did he ever discuss with you how he made peace 
with being a chossid in  some matters and a Hirschian in others - especially in 
areas where they  conflict in a big way - such as the current Torah/Science  
tzimmes?



>>>>
I never answered this letter but just came across it again now.  My  father 
did not explicitly discuss with me how he reconciled Ger with  Hirsch.  As a 
girl I saw a seamless whole and did not realize that there  /had/ to be seams 
there, I just didn't know about them.
 
Coincidentally I just tonight read the recent Mishpacha article  about RSRH 
and it says there:
 
==begin quote==
 
In a recent article in Mishpacha, commemorating the 60th yahrzeit of the  
Imrei Emes zt'l, journalist Aharon Granevich-Granot quotes the Imrei Emes as  
saying:  "When I arrive in the Heavenly beis din and they ask me, 'What did  you 
achieve in your lifetime in this world?' I will answer, 'Agudas Yisrael, the  
Yesodei Hatorah Talmud Torah, and the Bais Yaakov schools!' "  Ironically,  
two out of the three items that this chassidic giant cited as the biggest  
accomplishments of his lifework are directly linked to Rav Hirsch:  Agudath  Israel 
and Bais Yaakov.
 
It is noteworthy that Rav Shimon Schwab related that the Imrei Emes once  
told him that "the Tzaddik of Frankfurt [Rav Hirsch] was a liebidige mussar  
sefer [a living mussar sefer]."  The Gerrer Rebbe's assessment and awe of  Rav 
Hirsch should now come as no wonder.
 
==end quote==
 
The only thing I have to add is that my father was born as the result of a  
bracha from the Imrei Emes.  A small framed photograph of the Imrei Emes  stood 
on my father's desk all the years I can remember.
 


--Toby Katz
=============

President Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead  with the 
deployment of Cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly ?  after 
getting himself a bigger stick.  --Mark Steyn




**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for 
fuel-efficient used cars.      (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
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Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
> Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
 
>> 4. BTW, if the goy takes the chametz and doesn't pay, he can be sued
>> for the money, but the chametz is still his.  His ownership doesn't
>> depend on his payment.  And in the forms I've seen there's a Jewish

> Actually, many Poskim consider a default on payment to be possible
> grounds for retroactively annulling a sale.  See, e.g., Nesivos
> (190:7), Bah (HM 96:23), Pis'hei Teshuvah (ibid. 2) and Beis Meir (EH
> 90:9 s.v. Kayamim Be'azmam ... V'hinei Ha'Zarich Iyun She'hiniah Harav
> Ha'Maggid ...).

Not if there's an arev kablan.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

RYL recently posted the following excerpt from Selected Writings by RSS,
with the entire chapter 23 ("Chillul Hashem") on his web site at
<http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/chillul_hashem_r_schwab.pdf
>.

I think the quote raises a discussion of LH, malshinus, chilul hasheim,
tochakhah, and how to balance them which deserves a more Torah-sourced
discussion.

> All this comes to mind at this time since some perpetrators of Chillul
> Hashem are making the headlines of our daily newspapers. Certainly we
> are not sitting in judgment of the persons who are publicly accused
> and we have to wait whether the indictments will be borne out by
> irrefutable evidence. However, be it as it may, the Chillul Hashem is
> there in the worst possible way. "Rabbi" so and so, who sits in court
> with his velvet Yarmulka in full view of a television audience composed
> of millions of viewers, is accused of having ruthlessly enriched himself
> at the expense of others, flaunting the laws of G-d and man, exploiting,
> conniving and manipulating -- in short, desecrating all the fundamentals
> of Torah Judaism. And this sorry onslaught on our Jewish sensitiveness
> is repeated by similar allegations, proven or unproven, involving more
> prominent men who are stigmatized as orthodox Jews, sometimes even with
> so-called rabbinic diplomas.

> Therefore, no white-washing, no condoning, no apologizing on behalf of
> the desecrators. Let us make it clear that anyone who besmirches the
> sacred Name ceases to be our friend. He has unwittingly defected from
> our ranks and has joined our antagonists, to make us all suffer in his
> wake. And -- noblesse oblige -- the more prominent a man has become in
> orthodox Jewish circles the more obligated he must feel to observe the
> most painstaking scrupulousness in his dealings with the outside world.

Of course, such discussion should start with the sources RSS gives.

-micha

PS: Note that when not quoting the chapter title, I transliterated it 
"chilul hasheim". It's a chillul of the Eibishter's reputation. If
"Hashem" were intended as a qinui, IOW if we were speaking of He
Himself, would it make sense to say the Borei was made chol?


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