Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 218

Thu, 12 Jun 2008

• 1. Re: Translation Help Before Shavuot if possible (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: One Reason for Reading Megillas Rus on Shavuos (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Re: Mood of Tehillim (David Riceman)
• 4. Re: Hashavat Aveida or Lifnei Iver? (T613K@aol.com)
• 5. An old Pshat and a Question About Milchig on Shavuos (Meir Rabi)
• 6. Tachnun (Cantor Wolberg)
• 7. derabban and deoraisa (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: An old Pshat and a Question About Milchig on Shavuos (Rich, Joel)
• 9. lighting a cigarette off another on yom tov (Simon Krysl)
• 10. adoptions of Non-Jewish children (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: adoptions of Non-Jewish children (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: adoptions of Non-Jewish children (Rich, Joel)

 


        Translation Help Before Shavuot if possible - The S"A in C"M
2:38 quoting the Rosh discussing 7 tuvei ha'ir uses the phrase tuvei
ha'ir shehimchum (shin heh mem chuf vav mem) bet din aleihem.  What is
the exact root and meaning of himchum?


The proper spelling (C"M 2:1) is shin heh mem CHES vav mem, according to
the Oruch the words means placed, it's Mokor  is found  in Ezra 6:11

Gut Yom Tov, v'Kol Tuv

=====================================================
Interesting since the closest usage is in B"M 111a where it's used for
when an employer provides credit by a storekeeper to pay his employees.
Chag Sameach
Joel Rich
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On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Richard Wolpoe <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> FWIW, I have a novel interpretaion of 613 mitzvos were all given at Sinai.
> Not that all 613 were given at one time  [Pesach Sheini and B'nos Zlaphchad
> would be difficult to explain away]
> Rather HKBH told Moshe at Sinai:
>
>> "When I get done with you ther WIll BE 613 Mitzvos in all!"
>>
>
> THAT was the "613" given on day one at Sinai.
> This also explains the Behag who includes derabbanan's in HIS 613. That is
> because only the TALLY of 613 were given at Sinai but NOT literally all 613
> separate commandments! OR if you will the EXPECTATION of 613 was given but
> not the actual list.
>
> <http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/>


Also this explains how it is that no tann'im or amoraim chalenge each other
re: Minyan hamitzvos.  IOW we would have thoght that for every differfence
in drasha it would impact the enumeration of hte Taryag and that they should
be forced to explain the impact of each decision.

Also, this explains that even Moshe Rabbeinu himslef might have never know
precisely which 613 comprised the Chseshbon EVEN if all 613 were given at
day one.  That is becuase he was not given a specifcally enumerated list,
but rather a final tally w/o necessarily EVER knowing the process to produce
said tally.

So Moshe Rabbeinu himself might have been like any Tanna or Amora,  in that
the specifics of any individual mitzvah belong or not -  does not
neceesarily impact the bottom line tally. And thus there may have NEVER been
a Masorah re: Taryag other than the bottom line, until the Shavuos Azharos,
Behag R. Sa'adyah Ga'on etc. came about in the Ga'onic era.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
> It seems to me that the power of Tehilim is unrelated to the meaning
> of the words. Or mostly unrelated. Or something like that. It is
> appropriate to say certain Tehilim in certain circumstances, and
> certain event/psalm connections have become traditional, but we should
> not make too much of an effort at understanding the words of the
> psalm, or their connection to the event.
>   
What a disturbing idea.  In the back of my edition of Hovoth HaTalmidim 
there are three further essays by Rabbi Shapira, the second called 
"Torah, Tefillah, V'Shirah LaShem".  See the second section of that essay.

David Riceman

 
 
I wrote: >>Shaving is a d'Oraisa, and if the person has  already  decided to 
become frum, 
he should be taught d'Oraisas as soon as   possible.  Not shaving with a 
razor 
happens to be one  of the  easier ones....<<
 
But RAM's answer (and RAF who gave a similar answer) was much better than  
mine: 
 
 
>>I'm confident that no matter who you'd ask in the kiruv world,  they'd 
answer NOT to "slam" the person with all 613 at once. ...In the current  case, I 
think the best thing to do would be to return it to him, with an  explanation 
about TWO halachos. Don't just get on his case with the issur of  shaving, but 
use it as an oppotunity to teach about Hashavat  Aveida!...<<  That was a 
really superior  answer!




Bottom line:  In general, you go slow with a new BT and don't  give a person 
too much information at once.  But where the opportunity so  naturally arises, 
as in this case, and it is not one of the more difficult or  complicated 
halachos -- carpe diem.



--Toby  Katz
=============





**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with 
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&;NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
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The Malochim protested that the Jews should not be given the Torah. Moshe
Rabbenu told them that they had eaten Basar BeChalav when they visited
Avraham Avinu and that silenced them. [Clearly a different approach to that
of Rashi on the Chumash] The Meshech Chochmah explains the exchange between
MR and the Malochim.

Question:
How was AA permitted to cook BBeChalav?
Even if it occurred inadvertently it is Assur BeHAnah, he would not have
been permitted to serve it to the Malochim.
How did their transgression disqualify their protest?

Answer
The meat that AA cooked with milk was Pareve. It was the meat of a Ben
PeKuAh, the foetus found inside a slaughtered beast.

So what's the problem if the Malochim ate it?

They should have declined AA's offer for the Beef Stroganoff on the menu
since they held AA was NOT Jewish and therefore could NOT Shecht and
consequently could NOT make a Ben PeKuAh. BUT they did not object because
they accepted that AA was Jewish and he could Shecht and he could make a BP.

So Moshe Rabbenu told the Malochim, It's too late for you to object. You
accepted many years ago that the Torah is ours.

Absolute Gaonus.

For this reason we have the Minhag to eat Milchig on Shavuos, it was the
argument through which we gained the Torah.

I was asked by a young Bochur, if that's the case we should be eating BP
Beef Stroganoff on Shavuos?

 From Rosh Chodesh Sivan until the 8th of Sivan (Isru Chag) we do not  
say Tachnun. Some do not say Tachnun until the 12th of Sivan, and in  
the Diaspora until the 13th of Sivan.
Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Brurah 494:3, Piskei Tshuvos 494:9

Do any of you not say tachnun until the 13th?

Isru Chag sameach.

ri

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R' Joel Rich wrote:
> Now, what happens if Rabbi X says kosher and Y says treif &
> followers of each eat from the same pot - I suppose the effect
> (here and bashamayim) is different even though the molecules
> are the same.

Akiva Miller
I would that that this applies only if both were Real Rabbis, that is
to say, with Real Semicha -- which we do not have today.

Today, they would both be affected the same way, though were can't be
certain whether it was Rabbi X or Rabbi Y who was correct.>>

Real Semicha makes a difference for a bet din, malkot or monetary
fines why should it make a difference for Yoreh Deah type questions?


-- 
Eli Turkel

The Malochim protested that the Jews should not be given the Torah. 
===================================


And this you understood? Do malachim have free will to protest hkb"h's
actions?
KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

Dear all,
I have seen it written, a while ago, that one is not allowed to light
one's cigarette directly from another on yom tov, as this involves (or could
involve) extinguishing the flame of the "original one". Can anyone suggest a
source for such ruling?
Many thanks,
Simon Krysl
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I've wondered for a long time about adoptions of Non-Jewish children who
are converted by bet din but must confirm there desire when they reach
majority.  It seems clear from some of the sh"ut literature that there
were parents who did not tell their adopted children about their status.
I did not find however a discussion of what happens to all the acts they
did prior to renunciation (e.g. status of their children, cases where
they gave eidut) Any ideas?
KT 
Joel Rich
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On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 02:40:44PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: I've wondered for a long time about adoptions of Non-Jewish children who
: are converted by bet din but must confirm there desire when they reach
: majority...

Lemaaseh, this is done implicitly.

a- Geirus is deOraisa, and therefore bar/bas mitzvah and assumotions --
it happens at two sa'aros.
b- if he changes his ming after acceptance, he's still a geir.

Therefore, the geirus is chal within tokh kedei dibur of the child
growing a 2nd hair. Impossible to detect.

Therefore, the kelal is that anyone who was shomer Torah umitzvos as a
child and continued to be so through that moment and after, is a geir.
See Tosafos Kesubos 11a dh Lekhi, and Tosafos Yeshanim ad loc.

The Tosafos Rid allows him to reneg any time between becoming a bar daas
until 2 sa'aros.

Similarly, your other concerns don't seem to me to be applicable:
: I did not find however a discussion of what happens to all the acts they
: did prior to renunciation (e.g. status of their children, cases where
: they gave eidut) Any ideas?

Since the geirus is chal because they were shomeri Torah umitzvos at
the beginning of adolescence, children and eidus are both impossible
until after the geirus would be rejected.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
micha@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

 

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 02:40:44PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: I've wondered for a long time about adoptions of Non-Jewish children
who
: are converted by bet din but must confirm there desire when they reach
: majority...

Lemaaseh, this is done implicitly.

a- Geirus is deOraisa, and therefore bar/bas mitzvah and assumotions --
it happens at two sa'aros.
b- if he changes his ming after acceptance, he's still a geir.

Therefore, the geirus is chal within tokh kedei dibur of the child
growing a 2nd hair. Impossible to detect.
==============================================
My understanding from R' Moshe's tshuvot is he has the right to
renunciate when he is told he is geir (perhaps you are assuming he was
told prior to bar mitzvah, I'm talking about where he isn't told he's
adopted till 20)
KT
Joel Rich
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