Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 213

Thu, 05 Jun 2008

• 1. Re: Avodah] D'rabanan vs. D'oraita (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: fish and milk (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Re: Safeiq Sefirah (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 4. Re: Tearing toilet paper on Shabbos (Chana Luntz)
• 5. Re: fish and milk (Richard Wolpoe)
• 6. Re: Avodah] D'rabanan vs. D'oraita (Richard Wolpoe)
• 7. Re: Office Coffee machine (Richard Wolpoe)
• 8. Sivan 2 Yom HaMeyuchas (Cantor Wolberg)
• 9. Questions on sefer Rus (BKanter@aol.com)
• 10. 2nd day Y"T (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: first mention in the Torah (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 12. RSRH and the Cogito (Micha Berger)

>On a complete Tangent,in teaching Shulchan Aruch, etc. I noticed this 
>pattern re: penalties:


  > 1. D'oraissos - Both Meizid and Shoggeig  are always hayav
   >2. Derabbanan's
     > 1. Meizidim USUALLY have a penalty
      >2. Shoggeg Never [afaik so far] have a penalty post facto

>I am guessing that this is consistent with this Rambam If anyone can 
>confirm this pattern as a stated rule somewhere [Yad Malachi?] then I 
>would appreciate it.

--
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com

                                             END of QUOTE


The Nesivos Hamishpot (Choshen Mishpot 234:3), using a text from Bavli
Eruvin 47 as a source, states that a Shogeg Derabbonon does not require
teshuvah (repentance)

Elozor Reich, Manchester

------------------------


only on a drabbanan level is not mtamteim et halev?

KT
Joel Rich


_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

R' Saul Weinreb asked:
> The debate about meat and fish is well known, that we are
> machmir even though current science doesn't identify any
> health risks with meat and fish together, but that is
> because it has become accepted as an issur in klal yisrael.
> it is hard to believe that we could apply the same rules to
> fish and milk, which most people do not accept as dangerous
> AND medical science has not identified any such danger? 

I think that the source of your confusion lies in the words "most people", which you seem to equate with "most ashkenazim".

In other words, the same way that we are machmir on meat and fish even
though current science doesn't identify any health risks with it, but that
is because it has become accepted as an issur in klal yisrael, so too,
Sefardim are machmir on *milk* and fish even though current science doesn't
identify any health risks with it, but that is because it has become
accepted as an issur among Sefardim.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Get low prices on quality carburetors. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc
/Ioyw6i3neciU9RKRVQbC7Rwv32Zv05zQPRakO2ElbkXEQwSuLzwBXk/

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> So perhaps it's related to "einah domeh shoneh pirqo 100
> pe'amim leshoneh pirqo 101" (Hillel to Bar Hei-Hei; Chagiga 9b).

R"SBA added:
> Correct. In fact that is how I heard it. (Possibly beshem the CS.)

According to "Tefila K'hilchasa" by Yitzchak Yaakov Fuchs, chap 12 footnote 69, the source for the 101 times is indeed the Chasam Sofer, Siman 207.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Help is here! Click now for simple and easy Financial Advice.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc
/Ioyw6i3m2fnOwEeikv9b5Ytmh2kRvn97qnmuCwc2cjTUjsuZBPOVS6/

RMK writes:

> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Doron Beckerman <beck072@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > I think it is if one is going to have to wipe his Ni'a on his sleeve
> (which is problematic on Shabbos anyhow).
> >
> 
> Huh? What's the problem?

I would have asked the opposite question - why is it mutar not on shabbas -
at least for a talmid chacham - after all Shabbas 114a states kol talmid
chacham shenimtza rachav al begado chayav misa?  Why would nia be more
acceptable than rachav - especially as the test seems to be what would cause
people to despite the Torah and the teachers of the Torah.  I think most
people's response to people wiping their nose on their sleeve versus a mere
bit of dirt or grease on their clothing, I would be of greater revulsion -
so I ought to be a kal v'chomer.

And RZS writes:

>Speaking as someone who has great tzaar when unable to blow my nose,
>I just can't see the case for a kevod haberiyos exception here.
>Snot and tzoah are just not comparable in this respect.

Well ROY seems to treat it as a reasonably dvar pashut that having to go out
with "tit" on one's clothing is a matter of kavod habrios (see Yabia Omer
chelek chet Orech Chaim siman 39, si'if 5) and hence even if there is a
rabbinic issur to take it off such clothing on shabbas (which is the main
subject of the discussion with some discussion about whether it makes a
difference whether it is lach or yavesh) then it should be permitted for
kovod habrios reasons.

Again, I can't see tit as being worse than nia?


Regards

Chana

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 11:42 PM, <saulweinreb@comcast.net> wrote:

>  R' Zev Sero writes:
>
> "In practise, most Sefardim seem to follow this BY, at least to some
> extent, while among Ashkenazim AFAIK only some Chasidim do so.  I
> speculate that the Chasidim copied this practise from Sefardim,
> along with many other practises."
>   My wife thought at first that this Israeli born sephardi had obviously
> never seen tuna casserole before, and she tried to encourage him to try
> some.  He had to tell her that sephardim won't eat fish and cheese together.
>



FWIW Among those who are chossheish for this BY and Levush allow fish
sauteed in butter [and I would imagine cheese, too] Many read this BY as
DAVKA milk and not all dairy.


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080604/860f3a53/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Rich, Joel <JRich@sibson.com> wrote:

>
>
> So to tie 2 threads together - would you say that a food that is treif
> only on a drabbanan level is not mtamteim et halev?
>
> KT
> Joel Rich
>
>
At MOST this can be true only when eaten beshoggeig
I don't see extrapolating that ALL derabbanans would fall under this
category


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080605/1f52c7e9/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> I spoke to two rabbanim about it: R' Chaim Davis (founder of the Toronto
> Community Kollel, the Yeshiva Gedola of Passaic [where R' Meir Stern is
> now RY] and Passaic's Beis Medrash laTorah) and R' Jack Love (who
> teaches halakhah at YCT).
>
> My first conversation with RCD focused on the question of whether there
> is zei'ah (which I mis-called "hevel") without boiling. This was the key
> issue to RJL as well.
>
> My second conversation with RCD focused on whther the vapor would be
> yad soledes bo (simple experiment shows it wouldn't -- hold your hand
> a fraction of an inch above the cup) to treif-up the coffee maker anyway.
>
> RJL pointed me to sources.
>
> Rama 92:8 appears to limit the problem of zei'ah to a pot used as a lid,
> and there the zei'ah is yad soledes.
>
> The AhS (108) says the Rama is only writing about thick steam. (That being
> the point of a lid.) This might be an issue with a microwave, though,
> because the walls can get dripping wet. But I don't know of anyone who
> still (now that their workings are better known) says microwaves don't
> need kashering.
>
> The coffee machine is okay.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger
>

IIRC zei'ah in an oven is AFAIK restricted to a closed system. Thus, the
mere wafting of steam in open air would NOT cause a problem [see below]

Think of it this way.  Heated water in a kli sheini usually does not
contaminate.
Steam in the wide open spaces would be tantamount o not being in a kli at
all, and would not have teh koach to cook EVEN when yad soledes bo

Exception if it were a "stream" of steam with some kind of focus then it
indeed would be different aiui.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080605/cb47b256/attachment-0001.htm>

Sivan 2 is marked on the Jewish calendar as Yom HaMeyuchas ("Day of  
Distinction");
it was on this day that God told Moses -- when Moses ascended Har  
Sinai for the
first time -- to tell the people of Israel: "You shall be My chosen  
treasure from among all
the nations, for all the earth is Mine. You shall be to Me a kingdom  
of priests and a holy nation" (Shmos 19:4-6).

 
 
Hi all:
 
I wanted to know if anyone knows where I can get info online (or  off) on the 
following 3 questions.
 
 
1) All of the relationships leading up to Dovid Hamelech are of a seemingly  
illicit or impure nature (bnos lot, Tamar, Rus & Boaz, even Yishai and his  
wife). I have read somewhere that this was necessary because if the "sitrah  
achra" knew that the moshiach was coming into the world he would have tried to  
stop it. Is there  a source for this idea? 
 
2) the idea that the people in the story were gilgulim of previous torah  
personalities (Boaz=Yehudah, Rus =Tamar etc.) the Alshich does speak about this  
but I also heard that Rus (and her modesty) was a tikun for the eldest  
daughter of Lot. Are there sources that you know of for this? 
 
3) The connection between Yibum and Moshiach. i.e, all the above  mentioned 
stories have a Yibum aspect to them (the idea of "L'hakim shem  hames") is 
there a source for this as far as you know?
 
Thanks 
 
Bill 
_bkanter@aol.com_ (mailto:bkanter@aol.com) 






**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with 
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&;NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080605/332c9ea4/attachment-0001.htm>

From Yeshiva Beit El -
 
Question:
Assuming that I may Halachically observe one day for Shavuot in Israel ,
I have the following issue. If I fly on El AL on the second day Shavuot
I would arrive in New York (assuming they are on schedule...which
knowing my mazal they probably will be even though they rarely are) at
8:35. The
Zemanim calendars all say that Yom Tov Sheini shel Goluyos ends at 9:08.
May I travel even though I might arrive 32 minutes begfore the end of
Chag in the USA (using a 42 minute calendar). What do I have to do if I
may do
this? Assuming I cannot stay on the plane for that long can I get off
and just stay at the end of the walkway?

Answer:
Since you are not Chayyav with the second day of Yom Tov you should try
and make sure you are not seen traveling in the states. Therefore, you
should get off the plane and wait at the end of the walkway (or at least
not leave the airport) until the end of Yom Tov there.

Rabbi Yitzchak Grinblat
======================================
Question - I assume this is based on the Chacham Tzvi which iirc was
based on the makom being gorem so ben C"L doesn't observe 2nd day in
aretz but does that also mean that you're kovea your status at the
beginning of the day for the whole day so shinui makom makes no
difference (except in mazal :-)?

KT J
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080605/b0766a6e/attachment-0001.htm>

R' Phil Silverman:
> >"We have a tradition that if we wish to discover a concept's meaning,
> we
> should look at the first time it is mentioned in the Torah."
> 
> > I found the above statement at a fine yeshivah's website. I've heard
> it
> several times, and have seen some interesting examples, but can
> someone tell me the source of the tradition, or of a scholarly treatment
> of the subject?

If it helps, RSRH in Bamidbar 1:3 uses the concept to help define the word
"Tzava."

KT,
MYG

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 2:37pm, R Gershon Seif gershonseif@yahoo.com
posted a list of RSRH quotes. One doesn't quite work.

> "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
> "I am thought about, therefore I am - my existence depends upon the
> thought of a Supreme Being Who thinks me." - Rabbi S.R. Hirsch

Des Cartes' "Cogito ergo sum" (or "the Cogito", as it's called in
philosophy class) doesn't relate to the same topic as RSRH's quote.
The more full form is "Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum -- I doubt, therefore
I think, therefore I am."

De Cartes concluded that you can't really be sure of anything. However,
you can't construct an argument and prove anything without postulates.
However, there is one thing you can take for a given -- that you yourself
exist. After all, if you're wrong on that, there is no one trying to
prove anything, no one to be wrong!

IOW, it's really "I am the one doing the doubting, therefore I know I'm
thinking, therefore I know I exist." (With the usual quote starting at
step 2.)

From that, in meditation 3, he constructs 2 arguments for G-d.

1- My idea of G-d exists, and yet I am insufficient to construct this
idea. I am finite, and my idea is of Something Perfect and Infinite. (I
think this seifa bit is weak.) Thus, there must be a G-d.

2- I exist, therefore either:
    a- I caused myself -- in which case, where do my flaws come from? I
       wouldn't have caused an imperfect me
    b- I always existed - in which case, I am either an independent
       noncontingent being (ie G-d, as per Rambam Yesodei haTorah 1:1)
       or Something has exist to explain how I'm sustained.
    c- my parents caused me - infinite regress: Who caused them?
    d- an imperfect creator -- impossible because I can think of
       perfecxtion, again, the thought exists
    e- G-d.


RSRH's point is more along the lines of the Copenhagen interpretation
of Quantum Mechanics. Reality is fixed by observation, until then,
things only exist in a statistical sense. Google "Schroedinger's
cat". (Although I get that anyone who didn't hear of it skipped this
email by now.) Therefore my existence implies an observer. And therefore
the universe's existence as a whole implies an Observer. (Or you allow
for circular logic -- a universe that [part of which] observes itself.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 46th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
Fax: (270) 514-1507                         "unity" be over domineering?


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 213
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."