Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 209

Tue, 03 Jun 2008

• 1. Re: omer - Rihal (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Re: Fish and milk (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Re: D'rabanan vs. D'oraita (Richard Wolpoe)
• 4. Re: Black Sabbath (Shvartz Shabbos) (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: Mood of Tehillim (Michael Kopinsky)
• 6. Re: Mood of Tehillim (Michael Kopinsky)
• 7. Re: Safeiq Sefirah (Michael Kopinsky)
• 8. Re: Tearing toilet paper on Shabbos (Michael Kopinsky)

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> ng their one lunar-dated holiday to
> a day of the week as well.)
>
> This also explains why it took Hillel to pasqen what to do on Shabbos
> erev Pesach. For many years, the Saducees prevented a qiddush hachodesh
> that would allow erev Pesach on any day but Friday.
>
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger
>

See Teshuvos Harosh

The Gmara knows that rebbe fasted Erev Pesach but does not know the reason
The two hypotheses are:

   1. he was an istenis and needed to fast to gain an appetite
   2. he  was a bechor

Fregt the kasha - nu what about Shabbos Ereve Pesach?
If istinis he STILL might have fasted?  If it was because of Bechor then for
sure not.

IIRC [it's been a few years] Rosh says:
Shabos Ereve Pesach is NOT frequent ienough to establish a minhag that be
noticed.

This answers at least 3 interlocking points

   1. HIllel's dilemma
   2. Why Rebbe's Talmiddim did not know WHY Rebbe Fasted
   3. Why the time limit of Matza Ashira on [Shabbos or any] Erev Pesach is
   unclear.

Tonight after Arbis I was talking with an author of a new siddur. I pointed
out the Beis Yosef [and FWIW Elbogen] both point out that ato honen and ato
honantanu are redundant and there is no reason to say both lines on motza'ei
Shabbos.  [the key redundancy is the verbs]

The Author was aware that indeed there was such a confusion.  I countered
that th reason this was never ironed out is that it is NEVER said out loud
ONLY in the silent Amidah, and therefore there is no "proper" minhag as such
because there is really no bona fide mimetic in place. You cannot say I
heard my rebbe or the Shatz at Kehillas Infallible said it this way!

Similarly Shabbos Erev Pesach seems to slip through the cracks on several
points. I cannot say for sure that the kevi'as hahodesh was influenced by
Sadducees or not, but it would sure point AWAY from a Beis Din Hagaodl that
was  "ikkar TSBP" [Rambam Mamrim 1:1]  IOW to say that kevi'us Hachodesh was
out of  the hands of the  p'rushim in the era of the zuggos [as opposed to
the era of Yochan Kohein Gadol].

Bottom line:
AISI the fact that Bnei Beseira forgot is no more unusual than the Talmiddim
of Rebbe forgetting about the reason of his fasting.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

> Richard Wolpoe wrote:
>
>  For example, just because BY states that fish and milk are not permitted
>> together does not make it normative. We analyze this BY and E.g. the Rema in
>> Darchei Moshe posits 'ta'us Soferim.
>>
>
> Actually he doesn't say it's a copyist's error, because the context
> doesn't allow for that.  It's quite clear that the BY himself wrote
> milk, and meant milk.   When the DM says "nitchalef lo basar bechalav",
> he means that the BY himself confused milk and meat.   Needless to say
> that's a very bedochak explanation, but since there's no other mention
> of such a sakana the DM evidently feels forced to it.
>
> --
> Zev Sero



   1. what in the context of the Darchei Moshe forces you to say his
   statement is NOT a reference to scribal or printer error?
   2. There is no mention in any of the Rishonim AFAIK re: davening arbis
   late for Shavuos?nevertheless  the Taz mentions it. Why can't the BY be
   adding/manufacturing  a new halacah/humra/minhag?

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Michael Makovi <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> The Rambam tells us that for a SHOGEG violation of a d'rabanan, we don't
> need
> to do teshuva. My rabbi answered that since a d'rabanan is not an
> intrinsic sin, but rather the sin is only in ignoring or defying the
> words of the rabbis and rebelling against them, there is absolutely no
> sin whatsoever in violating a d'rabanan b'shogeg.
>
>
>
> Mikha'el Makovi


On a complete Tangent,in teaching Shulchan Aruch, etc. I noticed this
pattern re: penalties:


   1. D'oraissos - Both Meizid and Shoggeig  are always hayav
   2. Derabbanan's
      1. Meizidim USUALLY have a penalty
      2. Shoggeg Never [afaik so far] have a penalty post facto

I am guessing that this is consistent with this Rambam
If anyone can confirm this pattern as a stated rule somewhere [Yad Malachi?]
then I would appreciate it.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Levine@stevens.edu>
wrote:

>  I mentioned to a few people that this coming Shabbos is Shvartz Shabbos,
> and, most surprisingly, they did not seem to know what I was talking about!
> >:-}
>
> For those who do not know what "Black Sabbath" is, please see
> http://tinyurl.com/42c5mn
>
> This selection is from the Luach prepared by Moreshes Ashkenaz.
>
> I have placed the Luach at http://tinyurl.com/3szdgm. Those interested in
> old Ashkenzic minhagim should find this luach very interesting.
>
>  Yitzchok Levine
>

Indeed it is one of only TWO shabbassos in which Av Harachamim is said in
Yekke Congregations

FWIW  - Our old "Japhet" song book said to use Eli Tziyyon for Lecha Dodi on
the Shvartz Shabbos but we never did it in my day as hazzan/Rav



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Silverman, Philip B <
Philip.Silverman@bcbsga.com> wrote:

>  I've always noticed the very animated mood of the psalms of Kabbalat
> Shabbat. I always hope the one leading the singing will choose a melody that
> is similarly upbeat.
>
Why does kabbalat shabbat need to be upbeat and happy?  I agree that it
should be emotional, but am unsure if the Carlebach happy-clappy mood fits
kabbalat shabbat.  When people don't understand the words of what they're
singing, it just becomes, "I feel spiritual," rather than "I am welcoming in
the shabbat with the specific meanings of the words I'm reciting." I
personally enjoy the old-style tunes for kabbalat shabbat and lecha dodi
much more than the new(ly popular) Carlebach stuff.


>  But I have a question about the first psalm (Psalm 95).  It starts of
> with a resounding "Come! Let us rejoice!" but ends on "and I swore in My
> wrath that they shall not enter the land of contentment."
>
Did you look at the middle of the psalm?  If you haven't yet, simply read
through the English translation and see the flow from beginning to middle to
end of the psalm.

Basically, here's how I understand the flow: Let us sing to G-d, let us
thank Him, because He is great, because He is our G-d, as long as we follow
his ways; don't be like your ancestors who didn't follow his ways, and got
G-d angry at them.

This flows, and if people paid attention to the entire perek, it would make
sense.  The problem is that people sing Lechu Neranenahhhhhhhhhh........,
skim read until the end without understanding anything, and sing "Arba'im
shanahhhhhh............" As soon as people pay attention to the words
they're signing, they have the problem you have.  The only solution is to
pay attention to the entire perek.


>  Frankly, if I were the one putting Kabbalat Shabbat together, I'd be
> tempted to leave out the last few verses of that Psalm. Of course, I'm sure
> I could find some good reasons to include it. Do you know of any commentator
> who talks about this?
>
To me, the question is the opposite: Given that kabbalat shabbat includes
psukim that aren't necessarily so happy, why are we singing it to happy
tunes?

KT,
Michael
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On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 8:47 AM, Saul Guberman <saulguberman@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>> When r"l we need to say tehillim, the tune is usually a sad one. Things
>> aren't going well for some choleh or in the matzav, and we are pleeing
>> with HQBH.
>>
>> Is this really correct? (And among Chassidim, is this historically
>> accurate?)
>>
>
> To me, this is all situational dependent.  The tehillim of Hallel, Kabbalat
> Shabbat & before bentching are all upbeat tunes. The Mizmor L'David sung at
> Sueda Shilshit is not sung upbeat.
>

Even the same kappitel is recited in different modes/moods.  For example,
Shir Hamaalos Mimaamakim has a different niggun for Aseres Yemei Teshuva and
for when it's being recited for a choleh.  (And this kappitel R' Micha seems
to agree should be sad/pleading, rather than reassuring. Or at least the
first half of it is.)

I think much of the difficulty is the wide variety of emotions present in
Tehillim.  Even within the same kappitel, the first half has a very
different content, and thus a very different mood, than the 2nd half.  (cf.
the email I just sent about kabbalas shabbos and L'chu n'ranenah.)  It is
difficult to assign a particular mood to one kappitel, let alone a set of
kapitlach or an entire sefer, but for simplicity sake we use one niggun for
everything.  The consequence is that when we try to add emotion to our
recitation, we can only add generic emotion, rather than emotion that fits
the particular words of the kappitel and the pasuk.

Slichos also has this difficulty.  For years (and still now, but less so) I
never got to the end of any slicha, since when I was half way through, the
tzibbur was already up to Keil Melech.  Only saying the first half of every
slicha is quite depressing - "Look at the horrible state of Your nation,
charufa busha v'cherpa, oy lanu ki chatanu, etc."  Recently I have tried to
go through the slichos the night before and learn the hard words, so in the
morning I would be able to make it through the whole thing.  I have been
shocked to discover that the slichos always have an upbeat ending, with an
affirmation of the hope that we will one day return to the Beis Hamikdash
"und alle gutte zachen."

I think the only answer to all of this is to sit down and learn what you're
saying, and to daven at a pace that works for you.

KT,
Michael
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On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 11:07 AM, SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:

> I might amend his question. It's not 30 days but 90 repetitions..
> >>
>
> I once heard a cheshbon (beshem someone) that it is actually 101
> repetitions. I am not too sure how, but it would include Mussaf of YT,
> several Shabosim, RCh etc.


Well, let's see:

On the first day of pesach you say two shmoneh esreis with MHUH.  For the
next 7 days, you daven four times a day, so by motzei yom tov you're davened
30 times.

From 23 Nissan until 15 Iyyar (non-inclusive) you have 22 days, accounting
for 66 "regular" (non-mussaf) shmoneh esreis, totalling 96.

This year there were five days when we davened mussaf (3 shabbosim and 2
days of R"Ch) during this period, totalling 101.

I don't have the energy to calculate what would happen if Pesach were on a
different day of the week, and if there that would result in an extra (or
missing) shabbos during those 30 days.

KT,
Michael
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On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

> Micha Berger wrote:
>
> One person suggested that perhaps they're not connected enough to be
>> considered qeri'ah, but I don't see it.
>>
>
> Mechatech, not qorea`.  IIRC qorea` applies only to things that were
> separate and have been glued together, mechatech is cutting something
> in two


IIUC from R. Ribiat's 39 Melochos, this is a machlokes haposkim between the
Baal Hatanya and most other poskim.  RZS is taking the position Rabbi Ribiat
ascribed to the Baal Hatanya.

KT,
Michael
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