Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 200

Wed, 28 May 2008

• 1. Re: pesach sheni [from Hakhel] (Arie Folger)
• 2. Re: Baby Wipes (was: Tearing toilet paper on Shabbos) (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Tearing toilet paper on Shabbos (M Cohen)
• 4. Re: Tearing toilet paper on Shabbos (Doron Beckerman)
• 5. Re: Baby Wipes (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 6. Re: first mention in the Torah (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: Baby Wipes (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Baby Wipes (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Baby Wipes (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: pesach sheni [from Hakhel] (Joshua Meisner)
• 11. Re: first mention in the Torah (Rich, Joel)
• 12. ktanai (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: kofoi tova (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Split Nusach (Micha Berger)

RGD wrote:
> I, on the other hand, would like to know what source, if any, there is for
> eating matza on Pesach Sheni.

... and I wonder why they choose the 14th by day, rather than the eve of the 
15th. (IIRC, this was raised in the forum in the past and not yet answered)

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

 


Aren't baby wipes subject to another problem: se'hittah? You use them
precisely because they are moist AND the moisture will wash off the
secretions off baby's skin. I know some posqim object, though I can't
recall the references. Is anyone mattir? Why, is the kind of moisture
extracted from the wipe insignificant? Oh, by the way, I am talking of
se'hittah toldah of dash (extracting moisture from the cloth), not of
se'hittah, toldah of melaben.
--
Arie Folger
============================================================
IIRC R' Sobolofsky thinks we should be machmir but the olam is nohaig
not so, again iirc because the moisture is really mostly on the surface
(don't ask me what that means - it was a tape of a shiur some time back,
and IIRC I didn't get it then)

KT
Joel Rich
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RZS writes ... Speaking as someone who has great tzaar when unable to blow
my nose,
I just can't see the case for a kevod haberiyos exception here.

I have seen those matir carrying tissues k'lachar yad in a karmalis where
there is no eruv for 
kevod haberiyos reasons (ie in winter)

mordechai cohen

RMB wrote:

>> Tearing toilet paper is not
normally derabbanan. AIUI, if torn on the perforations, one is tearing
to size and that's deOraisa. Rather, one must either tear kel'acheir
yad, or make sure not to tear on the lines. <<

R' Shlomo Zalman is Meikil on the Mechatech issue in this, and many other
scenarios, because he holds that one must want *that particular size* to
violate Mechatech. If the company would put the perforations a bit higher or
lower, it wouldn't make any difference to you. (In fact, I don't like where
they put it at all.)

But qorei'a is an issue, and it is qoreia Al Menas Lesaken, which is Deorysa
according to most Poskim (some say we need Koreia Al Menas Litpor Davka).

>> But I don't know about facial tissues. Is the need for one also
considered a sufficient kavod haberi'os issue? <<

I think it is if one is going to have to wipe his Ni'a on his sleeve (which
is problematic on Shabbos anyhow). If one is going to have to blow his nose
into his hand and wash it off in the sink, (which I've seen people do even
with tissues around), I'd think it is subjective. A distinguished member of
a community or a Rov can't be seen doing something like that.

 And for sure if it is going to drip out of his nose it is under kavod
Habriyos. See Rashi to Shabbos 81b that even having something visibly stuck
between your teeth is an issue of Kavod Habriyos. RSZA is lenient even on
taking medicine is such a case when the Ni'a is leaking from his nose and is
an issue of Kavod Habriyos (brought in a footnote in SSK).
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The Tzitz Eliezer has a teshuva allowing the use of moistened toilet 
paper on Shabbos. He was mattir for one who has difficulties since: 1. 
The sechitah is less than a shiur, so at worst it is a d'rabbanan. 2) 
There is no sechitah by paper (RMF says that too). Since children of the 
age at which baby wipes are used have the din of cholim, even were 2 not 
true, 1 would still allow it.

Kt,
YGB

Rich, Joel wrote:
>  
>
>
> Aren't baby wipes subject to another problem: se'hittah? You use them
> precisely because they are moist AND the moisture will wash off the
> secretions off baby's skin. I know some posqim object, though I can't
> recall the references. Is anyone mattir? Why, is the kind of moisture
> extracted from the wipe insignificant? Oh, by the way, I am talking of
> se'hittah toldah of dash (extracting moisture from the cloth), not of
> se'hittah, toldah of melaben.
> --
> Arie Folger
> ============================================================
> IIRC R' Sobolofsky thinks we should be machmir but the olam is nohaig
> not so, again iirc because the moisture is really mostly on the surface
> (don't ask me what that means - it was a tape of a shiur some time back,
> and IIRC I didn't get it then)
>
> KT
> Joel Rich
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>
>   

It is a beautiful derasha I have used many times.
At a brit milah we state "hakatan hazeh gadol yehie".
This blessing doesn't make much sense. RYBS explained it based on the
above principle. The first time katan and gadol appear in the Torah is
the description of the moon and sun.
The difference between the moon and sun is that the moon merely reflects
the light of the sun.

Our blessing is that now the infant can only reflect that which is given
to him by his parents so he like the moon. We bless him that when he
grows up he should be like the sun with his own light shining n the
world giving instead of merely reflecting

--
Eli Turkel
_______________________________________________
I've used it as well. I seem to remember he quoted it in the name of R'
Tzadok but IIRC the Maharal uses this principle frequently.
KT
Joel Rich
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On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 01:50:07PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
: The Tzitz Eliezer has a teshuva allowing the use of moistened toilet 
: paper on Shabbos. He was mattir for one who has difficulties since: 1. 
: The sechitah is less than a shiur, so at worst it is a d'rabbanan. 2) 
: There is no sechitah by paper (RMF says that too). Since children of the 
: age at which baby wipes are used have the din of cholim, even were 2 not 
: true, 1 would still allow it.

Upon reread, it looks like you're saying that either of these sevaros
are sufficient lehatir:

1- The sechitah is less than a shiur, pachos mikeshiur is derabbanan,
and since a baby who needs wipes would qualify as a choleh, it would be
muttar.

or:

2- There is no sechitah by paper.


About #1... Does a 2-1/2 yr old who might even have the mental capacity
to be trained but isn't motivated yet (or even if not) really qualify
as a choleh? Diapers last far longer than needing the constant care
level of an infant.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 38th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
Fax: (270) 514-1507           promote harmony in life and relationships?

 2) There is no sechitah by paper (RMF says that too).

Kt,
YGB
==========================
Any insight as to why. How is paper defined (e.g. is a paper towel =
paper)?
KT
Joel Rich
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On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 03:27:07PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
:  2) There is no sechitah by paper (RMF says that too).

: Any insight as to why. How is paper defined (e.g. is a paper towel =
: paper)?

You are effectively asking fo a shiur for absorbancy. How much holding
power equals a potential for sechitah.


BTW, RYGB wrote on the same question at some more length (which he still
called qitzur nimratz) at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol03/v03n206.shtml#08>. There he adds a
third argument not stated this time around:
> 2. The HT and TE hold that unless at the end of the process you
> actually collect the liquid you generate in the sechita, it is not
> considered psik reisha d'nicha lei. Even if psik reisha d'lo ichpas lei
> is an issur d'rabbonon, kana"l, b'nidon didan yesh l'hattir.

And he notes that the lines of reasoning wouldn't apply to
Wash-and-Dries, since there is no choleh she'ein bo sakanah to
dimiss the derabbanans.

Which in turn lead me to the archive, subject
lines beginning "Baby Wipes" and related entries. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=B#BABY%20WIPES>.
In particular v3n206 onward.

R"Dr Josh Backon gives mar'ei meqomos
    IM OC 21:70.
    Har Tzevi 1:190
    Tzitz Eliezer VIII, ch 14, s"k 11.

Sam Ominsky cites the Yalqut Yoseif (KSA) 320:38, who permits using baby
wipes -- kishehu oseh kein benachas. I guess intentionally squeezing
hard to get liquid out is a problem.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 38th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
Fax: (270) 514-1507           promote harmony in life and relationships?

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:26 AM, Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org> wrote:

> RGD wrote:
> > I, on the other hand, would like to know what source, if any, there is
> for
> > eating matza on Pesach Sheni.
>
> ... and I wonder why they choose the 14th by day, rather than the eve of
> the
> 15th. (IIRC, this was raised in the forum in the past and not yet answered)


Perhaps whoever created (codified?) the custom wanted to commemorate the
shechting of the pesach rather than merely the eating of it.  This being the
case, the most convenient token representing the occasion would still be the
eating of matzah.

Joshua Meisner
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It is a beautiful derasha I have used many times.
At a brit milah we state "hakatan hazeh gadol yehie".
This blessing doesn't make much sense. RYBS explained it based on the
above principle. The first time katan and gadol appear in the Torah is
the description of the moon and sun.
The difference between the moon and sun is that the moon merely reflects
the light of the sun.

Our blessing is that now the infant can only reflect that which is given
to him by his parents so he like the moon. We bless him that when he
grows up he should be like the sun with his own light shining n the
world giving instead of merely reflecting

--
Eli Turkel
_______________________________________________
I've used it as well. I seem to remember he quoted it in the name of R'
Tzadok but IIRC the Maharal uses this principle frequently.
KT
Joel Rich
========================================================
Oops, just got home and  rechecked and the maharal was something else.
KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

Does anyone have a good explanation why the gemara will quote a
machloket in the name of amoraim and then immediately say ktannai and
quote the same machloket word for word in the name of tannaim (e.g
melech issue - sanhedrin20b)
KT
Joel Rich
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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:16:20PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: Interesting. I overheard 2 rabbis from a local Yeshiva high school who were
: registering a phone in the dorm as a home phone even though it was an
: institutional phone and I questioned the eh tics of this.
: I asked my own LOR...
: He said NO it is not G'nievas Da'as it is MAMASH G'neiva.  It's like an a
: adult buying a child's discounted ticket by lying about one's age.

Except that few telephones are per minute anymore. At least on home
contracts, all local calls are included.

So, perhaps the mechanchim weren't being so evil.

Instead, it's a zeh neheneh vezeh lo chaseir where the nachri (the phone
company) is the lo chaseir.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 38th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
Fax: (270) 514-1507           promote harmony in life and relationships?

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 07:47:04PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: Technically speaking, prayer modes constitute nusach hatefillah. They  
: are very important since the nusach identifies whether it is Shabbos,  
: Regel or Yomim Noraim. Shacharis IS different from Musaf....

You shifted meaning, and I'm not sure it's clear what you mean by modes.
So, let me try to rephrase, and you can correct me if I misunderstood.

Nusach hatefillah includes two things:

- The text of the liturgy.

- The mode of the music to which it is sung. By "mode" we mean the scale
(in a non-techincal sense) -- the steps and half-steps used in each
octave. As in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 38th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
Fax: (270) 514-1507           promote harmony in life and relationships?


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