Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 194

Fri, 23 May 2008

• 1. Re: Ta'am of eating matzah (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Prozbul (Cantor Wolberg)
• 3. Re: pesach sheni [from Hakhel] (Simon Montagu)
• 4. nusach in shul (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: ta'am of eating matza (Michael Makovi)
• 6. [Avoda] Lechem at a shul kiddush (Michael Makovi)
• 7. Mitzvah Haba'a BeAveira (Kayza Zajac)
• 8. Standing for mitzvot (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: ta'am of eating matza (Richard Wolpoe)
• 10. Re: nusach in shul (Richard Wolpoe)
• 11. Re: Mitzvah Haba'a BeAveira (Richard Wolpoe)

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> : You are taking issue with the idea that the Torah presumes knowledge
> : of Egytian bread and pagan meat and milk...
>
> I'm taking issue with the idea that we need such knowledge to get the
> primary gain from the mitzvah.
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha


The poitn of the above is simple. That kema'aseh eretz mitzryaim at the end
of Achaarie Mos MIGHT be NOW undserstood in light of this factoid as a
META_MITAVAH like KEDOSHIM TIHYU

You seem to think that a paradigm shift is somehow intrinsically evil. I say
if the pardigm shift gives a uerpior understnad of the REtzon haborei and
the CONTEXT of what the Torah actually meant to say, then we should embrace
it not RUN from it

Your opposition fells to me like a  distaste for leaving your comfort zone
and adventuring out into the curtting edgeof understanding as opposed  to a
solid hashkafa problem

Example Being introduced to Chiastic structures [mostly by Menachem Liebtag]
changed my entire understanding of TaNach.  And hearing R. Y. Adler explain
the Rav's shita on the dynamics of Kol Nidre  [especialy of v'nislach] was a
paradigm shift that made  the entire  section fit together as never before.

As Rabbi Kanarfogle told me about RYBS and Wissenshaft: Whe it madesnese he
likedit and when it didn't he didn' like it.  The idea that HKBH was
legislating against specific Egyptian Paganistic rituals or spoke to B'nei
Yisreol in Egyptian metaphor enhances my emuna, nto dminishes it. It means
thes people were realyl IN EGYPT and Hshem was speaking their Lnaguage and
was enacting gzeiros agasitn THEIR temptations and dangers - which probably
were all present until the end of Bayyis Rishon. IT is clear that there was
a break after the first Hurban and things Morphed. AZ was no longer the big
bogeyman in Bayyis sheini so new paradigms wer needed.


-- 


Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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> Regarding Akiva Miller's thoughtful response: "And He gave us a Torah
> which is so perfect that it includes ideas and procedures for
> improving it with the addition of things like prozbul, muktzeh,
> brachos, and others" -- it brought to mind the talmudic statement:
> "Minhag mevattel halacha," which applies in a surprising number of
> cases -- similarly with takkanot. I am aware, however, that there is  
> quite
> a different understanding and application of this in the different  
> Movements,
> and I don't mean to quote it as sanctioning practices in the C.
> Movement which would be contrary to O. beliefs and practices.
>
> As a side, I recall as a child growing up in Hartford we had the Oxy
> which was a  Free Loan Society for Jews. If it weren't for that, I  
> probably
> would've gone hungry. Had it been today, my father would've had to use
> their services for gasoline.

   K.T.
   ri
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On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> wrote:
> <<I would like to know the source for those who do not eat matzah at all on Pesach Sheni so as not to add to the mitzvos.>>
>
> I, on the other hand, would like to know what source, if any, there is for eating matza on Pesach Sheni.

The "Itim LeBina" calendar says "haHida [R HYD Azulai] katav de-yarbe
besimhha ki kadosh hayom. veyesh nohagim leechol hayom matzot". I'm
not sure whether both sentences are beshem haHida or only the first.

<<I have been in many shuls in EY where there is no set nusach. Instead,
the nusach goes by whomever is shaliach tzibbur.
So you will often have the circumstance where on Shabbat shacharit
is done in one nusach and Mussaf is done in the other.

...the appropriateness (or lack thereof) of having a shul with no set
nusach >>

Most poskim object to such a setup. Nevertheless it is very popular
in EY for practical reasons.
The simplest case is where there is a minyan at work. The participants
include ashkenaz, sefard (chassidic), sefardi, temani etc.
To start making separate minyanim for each group is in most cases
impractical or impossible. Thus, the standard practice is that the
nusach follows whoever is chazzan. Since, the participants can change
every day it makes no sense to go according to the majority and
it would also cause strife.

In "regular" shuls this mostly happens in smaller communities.
The shul is split between ashkenazi and sefard (chassidic).
For many reasons the shul and the rabbi does not want to split the
minyan even when it is possible, mainly for reasons of unity.
The possiblity of choosing one or the other would leave a very bad
taste. So the compromize is to let the chazzan choose even between
schararit and musaf. Note that when possible sefard (edot mizrach)
and temani frequently do set up a separate minyan for shabbat

-- 
Eli Turkel

> The lechem hapanim was baked in a mold, and could be bent/folded. This is to
> me a clear indication that "matza" as chazal understood it was like the
> soft, Sfardi matzot of today, not the hard Ashkenazi type.
>
> Saul Mashbaum

IF the lechem hapanim was matzah, it would have been Sefaradi,
b'vadai. But aren't we still arguing for the source of this assertion?

In any case, it seems clear AFAIK that matzah would have been
Sefaradi-like. Thin matzah is an Ashkenazi chiddush (I'm not sure
whether it is the Rema's, or if he is simply codifying an existing
minhag, but either way), and moreover, it makes sense that matzah
would have simply been normal pita that was baked without having sat
out to rise. When Avraham baked matzot for the three angels, and Lot
too, I imagine they simply were making unleavened pita.

Mikha'el Makovi

From [Avodah] Matza

> The only problem I have is having crackers at our s-called "kiddushes" on
> Shsbbos after services.  This actually cannot work in my system [i.e I would
> required hamotzi] and I am told the GRA insisted on hamotzi davka after
> Kiddush.  This WAS true of my old shul in the Heights that USED to have
> davka hamotzi for kiddush on Shabbos and Yom Tov in the "good old days".
>
> R' Rich Wolpoe

I heard from one of my rabbis that Rav Tzvi Yehuda would pick up two
rugalachim (what do you call that? - mizonot mishneh?) at a kiddush.

I suppose at a kiddush it is difficult, logistically, to get the bread
handed out to everyone at a kiddush. And then you have to
bentsch...too much tzurus and shlepping if you ask me.

Mikha'el Makovi

On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 09:06 -0700, avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org
wrote:
> 
> So the question then is, if she of her own free will decides to hug
> him, is there a certain level of emotional need of his that justifies
> this act, the same way, for example, a man can reciprocate a woman's
> handshake (after she's already extended her hand) to avoid shaming
> her?

I asked Shmuel (my husband) and he said that she is actually forbidden to hug the man who is dying to hug her.

-- Kayza

YESHIVAT HAR ETZION
ISRAEL KOSCHITZKY VIRTUAL BEIT MIDRASH (VBM)
**************************************************************
MISHNA BERURA
SHIUR #24: Siman 47:5-14
Pages 152 - 154
by Rav Yosef Zvi Rimon
BIRKOT HA-TORAH
************************
MUST ONE STAND DURING THE RECITAL OF BIRKOT HA-TORAH?
The Avudraham (in his siddur, weekday Shacharit) writes that there are
six mitzvot which must be performed while standing, and their initials
spell "alotz shalem": [the cutting of the] omer, [kiddush] levana,
tzitzit, shofar, lulav, and mila.
However, there exists another opinion (Avudraham; Eshkol at the
beginning of siman 23; and the Ittur) stating that for any mitzva which
does not involve hana'a - enjoyment or benefit - to its performer, one
recites its berakha standing. It remains to be seen, though, whether
birkot ha-Torah are birkot ha-mitzva or birkot ha-nehenin. (One could
possibly distinguish between the two berakhot. See Rav Soloveitchik's
"Shiurim Le-zekher Abba Mari.")

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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 4:44 PM, saul mashbaum <smash52@netvision.net.il>
wrote:

>
> The lechem hapanim was baked in a mold, and could be bent/folded. This is
> to me a clear indication that "matza" as chazal understood it was like the
> soft, Sfardi matzot of today, not the hard Ashkenazi type.
>
> Saul Mashbaum
>

 I am aware that they were baked in a mold but where is the source that said
that they could be bent?

I could be wrong but menachos that were 'rekikim" seem to me to be wafer
like and NOT flexible at all. That does not mean there was no suc hthing as
bendable matzo [iow unleavened pita] but I am not convinced that this was
EVER the exclusive matza formula...


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:

> <<I have been in many shuls in EY where there is no set nusach. Instead,
> the nusach goes by whomever is shaliach tzibbur.
>
> Eli Turkel
>


I 've seen this at office Mincha Minyanim wehre [within some limits]
thenusach is that of the Shatz. I had always imageind that this was a
fucntion of "ad hoc" types of minyanim only.
-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> Getting to the tangent...
>
> When dealing with kiruv or chinukh, it gets more complicated. The
> aveirah changes the eikhus of what's being taught. The mitzvah
> and aveirah aren't seperable, one is watering the other down.
>
> The rest of my response would involve arguing against the idea that the
> metzi'us was that these people couldn't be reached any other way. Off
> topic.
>
> The case of the hug is also entangled. Arguably the comfort is the very
> chibah which is the issur. Your "chessed" is (as already pointed out by
> others) arguably lifnei iveir or mesayei'ah and not a chessed at all.
> A more extreme case: making someone feel good by serving them the chazer
> they're dying for.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha
>


And so is dancing/clapping/slapping on Shabbat or  YT to honor the Torah[
etc.]
an ADL OR a MHB? --smile--

[to me it's a p'suil in the heftzah just like Sha'uls disobedience of HKBH
was a p'sul in all of the animals from Amaleik that he rescued and therefore
their asacrifice was a MHB]

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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